To the OP - what other "investments" do you have that have made you $600K? Exactly what was your purchase price and percentage return on it? Did you pay cash, or did a mortgage allow you to finance your stake as it spiraled skyward?

As an investment, a mortgage allows one to make money with a minimal investment. Mortgage interest is a tax deductable charge on your initial holding, and most Americans can afford this vs. a single investment purchase like art or stock. It is an absolute need - shelter, which MUST be purchased anyway, making it a much more attractive alternative to investing one's excess capital on risk. I can get a seller to pay closing costs on a 80-20 loan, pay $400 less than comperable rent (only bubble areas have a cost penatly for purchase vs. renting; rent is the ultimate affordability factor), and enjoy all of the tax advantages of home ownership.

Just because I don't live in a "bubble area," doesn't mean my homes haven't returned money. My first increased 70% in 3 years, my second, 22% in 2 years, and my current (paper value)has appreciated 30% in 2 years. I went into every one looking to make money.

$600K is a huge amount made on personal real estate - more than most people make on their homes in a lifetime of buying and selling. You are not immune to critcism for making it, however. There does appear to be some bitterness about the subsequent purchase which seems to have been a poor investment decision so far...

---"Just because I don't live in a "bubble area," doesn't mean my homes haven't returned money. My first increased 70% in 3 years, my second, 22% in 2 years, and my current (paper value)has appreciated 30% in 2 years. I went into every one looking to make money."---

Muddbelly, what "non-bubble" area is bringing those levels of return? Cuz I want to move there! Seriously, how are you realizing such a consistent level of appreciation? Are you a real estate investor or an average Joe Homeowner? Can you tell us your story because the results are quite fascinating.

sheez, how many friggin times do i need to say this.."It doesn't matter what your home is worth or not worth!" I don't care if my home is worth less then i paid for it...I got LUCKY with the return on my home i sold, it wasn't an investment,it was a HOME!!! Which sold for quite a bit more then i paid...And it is likely to sell for 10-15% easily today then 8 months ago...

Problem is, you are defining investments differently than most folks. I do invest in RE, I probably can't sell in one day, but that doesn't mean it is not an investment. I do get a return in rental income, but most gain is in the sale. Is the money not real if it takes me two months to get it? I just bought a house to live in short term, sold it after living in it for three years, after improvement expenses, my gain (before mortgage payment) was $500k, tax free. My mortgage payment was equal to a rent payment. Yes, it was an investment. It did take me 60 days from listing to get my money, does that not make it an investment? You don't look for investment value, but others do... to each his own.

"Problem is, you are defining investments differently than most folks."

Sheez, how many friggin times do we need to say this, qdognj? Your demand that everyone repeat after you just ain't flyin'. You have your own way of viewing things. Why not just leave it at that?

ff,i'd love to leave it at that, but a bunch of you "home" investment professionals won't drop it...Invest in cd's,stocks bonds...BUT your home is your place to live, not an investment...I hope you have other sources of income at retirement, because if you are counting on your home, YIKES....

qdognj, it may be a matter of portfolio - the smaller the percentage of your net worth that is tied to your home, the less likely you are to think of your home as an investment. (Now the shouting begins.)

I understand exactly what you are trying to say; your home is where you live. You need shelter. You can own stock, gold, treasuries, etc., etc. but they are not going to shelter you. Rental units, hotels, malls, business centers, etc. are investment properties.

For many people their home is their biggest investment. Yes, investment. Their net worth is tied to that home and can count for 50%, 75%, 100% of their net worth. They have no other assets. And, as you said, "Yikes!"

For others, their home doesn't even register as a blip on their portfolio and while they see their home as an asset, it is not an investment. It is where they live.

I actually agree with you, qdognj. The real estate bubbles and pay-days of the last few years show that in many areas, we are in the minority. Heck, from the tone of this thread I'd say we are in the minority on gardenweb. :-)

To me it's an investment in the sense that, I've been paying it down for many years (like money in a piggy bank). And in a few years it will be paid off when I retire, "paying me back" my investment by making it possible for me to live there without a mortgage or having to pay rent.
Each person looks at their home in different ways, and to make an absolute statement that obviously is not universally accepted, serves what purpose?

One of my homes is purely an investment and even the mortgage is a slightly higher rate because it is "investment property" as noted on the mortgage documents. I bought it as an investment and never lived there. It has increased in value and I am going to be selling it soon. Renters covered the mortgage/taxes while it increased in value. Investment.

Hey, qdog, I'm not the one who's trying to get everyone else march in step behind me! Remember when I said there's an element of intention involved in an investment? That an investment is made in the hope of making a profit? Obviously, people can and do have different attitudes about whether they buy their houses as a place live, something to make money on, or a combination of both. I'm willing to live with that.

Just so you know, the DH and I are lucky enough to own several houses and pieces of property, in addition to a nice portfolio of what you think of as "investments." We've done quite well with almost all of them and look forward to a comfortable retirement in a few more years, and that's not factoring in any income from real estate. Yippy doo for our side!

But I do know that for most Americans, thir house continues to be their biggest asset. Maybe that's good, maybe that's bad, whatever. But I don't think you're going to convince the average 66-year old who's getting a good chunk of money from downsizing that the house they've just sold didn't represent some kind of an investment.

And I'd also venture to guess that the majority of older Americans who don't have substantial equity in a house to help them retire also don't have much of anything else, either.

" The only advantage that I can see in owning is that I have basically "fixed" my rent (the interest) and it will only get lower."

Here are some other advantages of owning over renting:
1) You can own pets if you want and a landlord will not tell you otherwise.
2) You can live there as long as you wish(unless eminent domain) and a landlord can't decide to sell or rent to someone else and then boot you out at the end of your lease period.
3) If you want to grown tomatoes in your yard, you can. Landlord can't tell you no.
4) Fast forward 30 years. Chances are your home is paid off. You don't have to pay rent to live somewhere, but the renters are still paying rent each month.

FF,i'll give you the home as an asset,investment,nope..the bubble aside, whta kind of investment actually :costs" you money? People buy a home for 100k,sell it for 120k 5 years later..they think they "made" 20k..but they neglect to factor in mortgage expenses,realtor fees,realty transfer taxes, etc, and i won't even inlcude property taxes..Now as i have always said, you need to live somewhere, so consider your home just that, your home...

Isn't everybody sort of right here? It's like the blind man and the elephant. Each poster sees a different aspect of real estate ownership, and each makes good points within his individual context.

qdognj, you could post this in the hottopics forum if you want other views.
It's under the gardening forums

I think your perspective is a function of the time period your bought or sold and the area you live in.

I was stupid enough to buy a NYC co op in 1987 as the market was falling off a cliff. DH hated Manhattan and insisted we move out. I paid 220 in 1987 and considered myself lucky to sell it for 220 in 1993, not including some transfer fees and 5k in repairs. I did not buy it as an investment in 87 but I never expected to sell it at a loss in 93. The same condo is now worth about 900k or more so it worked out as an investment for someone, just not me! Its also worth more than the suburban house I bought for more than I sold my condo for!

What I mean about perspective is in 93 I needed a house but I underbought because I went in assuming the market could go lower (I think it did a little bit in 1994 before rocketng up). I had experienced it first hand. Now I need a bigger house for my family and again feel put out based on the fact that houses that would have cost 100k more are now 300k more because as prices went up, so did spreads. Is any of this guided by my desire to invest, no but I did turn down one house because it was a white elephant and would be difficult to sell in any market (even though it would have suited us well but our needs are unique).

Given my prior experiences I am still cautious, maybe not as cautious as in 1993 but still concerned. While I do not NEED to make money, I hate the thought of a market falling off a cliff after I buy. While I am buying and selling at the same time, my new house will be much more costly, putting much more at risk in the INVESTMENT

"whta kind of investment actually :costs" you money?"

Are you joking? Many. many kinds. Obviously, the investments people lose money on cost them money. Duh. Very few investments don't carry at least some risk that they will decline in value. Those that don't carry this risk inevitably have a low rate of return.

Then there's other costs involved with even the most liquid assets, such as brokers' fees, management fees, penelties for early withdrawlal fees, safe deposit box rentals, etc. and hey! How about capital gains tax? If you sell a capital asset you've held for less than a year, you will be taxed at your income tax rate. Even long termm capital gains carry a 15% rate. That's one cost you don't have when you sell your house at a gain.

BTW, what attitude I have about my houses and property as to whether or not they're investments isn't really relevant to this discussion. If people regard their houses as investments, that's fine with me, If they don't, that's OK too. You see, I'm not like you. I don't believe my personal attitudes represent gospel truth and demand everyone else agree with me.

F&^%%Frenzy,You don't know me at all, but for some strange reason, you are fascinated by me..I have tried to let this post fall to the bottom of pile, but everyday, you add some drivel.. If you read my history of posts(and it is likley you have), you'll see i am not a housing "bear",i actually think owning a home is great..I just don't see how Joe Average homeowner can consider their home an investment..An asset? ok..I believe the best days of home appreciation are behind us, but since you need to live somewhere, who cares..Now, i am finished with your whining and rants..And one last thing, ask some of the posters here, who have their "investment" for sale for a year or better,how they feel about it?

Can't we all just get along? It's distressing how many grudge matches have developed on this forum.

"Fascinated" doesn't capture it, but I'll leave it at that.

Everyone repeat after me --"insulting fellow posters is never appropriate."

As we are approaching 100 posts on this issue, can we put it to rest.

Some believe that a house is an investment. Some believe that a house is an asset, not an investment.

Qdog, you have stated your position - "You don't see how Joe Average homeowner can consider their home an invest." Let's leave it at that. It's your opinion, not shared by all.

Let's move on to more relavent topics, please.

Enjoy the journey.

eal51 in western CT

did we reach a verdict yet? help me out guys...is primary residence an investment or an asset or none?! -;)

"...did we reach a verdict yet? help me out guys...is primary residence an investment or an asset or none?! -;)"
Only you know for sure.

Let's see, eight years ago, my half of the downpayment was $16,000. If we sold today, my share of the NET profit would be approximately $160,000. That's equivalent to an annual interest rate of 34%.

My neighbor recently sold his house just above asking price after 4 days on market. Sounds pretty liquid to me.

Now, who would be silly enough to call my house an investment?
Maybe I should invest in a stamp collection instead...

you would be silly to call it an investment..Who cares what it "might" sell for, as it is not on market and hasn't sold..who cares what yor neighbor sold for..You can ask many posters here,whose neighbors sold for X and when they listed shortly thereafter, couldn't get near that "comp"...And finally,there are people who make $$ on selling their home,perhaps a good chunk of change.But there are also significant amount of people between the coasts who would not see the windfall..and to think of your home as "liquid?", that is ludicrous

The price of many investments flututate a lot, as does real estate. Just look at oil, gold, or shares in Berkshire-Hathaway. I don't expect stock I sell today to sell for the price in last month's paper or even YESTERDAY'S paper.

As far as value based on location: One share of Berkshire-Hathaway Class A may be worth $106,710.00
this morning where I live, but if you're starving in Darfur, it isn't worth a damn. There's no way to sell it. Jews fleeing the Nazis found out that valuables like gold and jewelry weren't worth much when you're running for your life and they had to dump stuff for cents on the dollar, and that's if they were lucky. Iraqis fleeing Bahgdad can't sell their houses at all. Ice in the tropics is worth more than ice in the Yukon.

Value based on time: If my bank is closed on Monday, which is a federal holiday, does that mean my CD is worth nothing because I can't cash it out? Is my paper Series I U.S. Savings Bond worth nothing because I have to wait for a week for the gov't to clear it?

That man a few hundred feet away from me sold his house faster than I could cash in that savings bond.

Nothing is worth anything, except what someone is willing to pay for it, and when you're willing to sell it.

Based on your criteria, NOTHING would qualify as an investment.

"Investing in real estate and getting monthly returns vis-a-vie a rental income is a whole different scenario then Average Joe Homeowner considering his home he lives in as an investment..And it is to this point homeowners get in trouble.."

qd,
If you acknowledge that rental property is or can be an investment, I don't see how you can deny that the primary residence can be as well. You are in essence renting your primary home from yourself.

I think those who say a primary residence is *not* an investment are rationalizing somewhat. I've always seen my primary residence as an investment -- my money is going into it, I want that money to grow. I can rent a home relatively inexpensively, but owning a home will cost a great deal more in terms of monthly payment. So whatever extra I put into a mortgage above and beyond what my rent would be, I want a return on that money because I could also keep renting and put that same money into a 401k, IRA, etc.

My home purchase decisions are always made not only on where I want to live, but on the likelihood of appreciation as well. There are multiple considerations. When the market declines, we say "our home is not an investment", but when the market picks up and goes gangbusters, we say "wow, what a great investment that was!" It's a matter of perspective.

to clarify,once again, i never thought of my home as an investment ever, not when it increased in value to mid 800's for a 1700+- sf bilevel. One should buy the home they want to live in, not invest in..If you make $$$ from it at some point in the future, thats great..If not, so what..You just can't sell your home when you retire and live in a cave.

No, but the 3-4 homes you buy in your lifetime can net tremendous financial results if bought with an eye towards future gains. Nobody buys one home and lives in it forever -- a house is a house is a house. It's property that (hopefully) appreciates. A home is what you make it.

I think buying solely from the perspective of "this is where I want to live" without considering future gains is rare. Most people care about their home's appreciation -- they're putting money into it when they could be putting that same money into a 401K or other investment yielding returns -- and that certainly plays a role in most peoples' decisions.

By the time you retire, you can be in a home that you love and that had nothing to do with investments. But wouldn't you want the previous homes you've owned to provide you with a significant portion of the retirement you now enjoy?

i started this thread, and at post 100, i hope to end this thread..If your home is worth more then you paid for it when you need to sell, thats great..And if it is worth less then what you paid, that stinks..BUT, if you invested wisely in stocks/bonds/mutual funds then you should be ok financially..Enjoy your home,spend money improving your home to what you want your home to be, but don't spend countless hours analyzing the financial impact an improvement may or may not have on your home somewhere in the future..If you are so concerned about the possible payoff later, don't do it..If it is something you want , then just do it...best of luck to all!!!!!

sshrivastava : Nobody buys one home and lives in it forever -- a house is a house is a house. It's property that (hopefully) appreciates. A home is what you make it.

Hmmm you may want to tell my grandparents that - they've been in the same home (their first, and only) 65 years, my parents (their first, and only) for 44 years, my aunt and uncle (their first and only) 33 years (I won't mention my great-grandparents or my other grandparents, aunts & uncles)... I think you get the drift. People can, and do, buy only one or two homes in their lifetime.

qdognj, threads now close at 150 :-)

qd, you seem frustrated that people keep questioning your statements. Why? You never considered your home an investment, we get it.
Your frustration that others do view their own home an investment is only your problem. Maybe if you stopped demanding that others not consider their own property an investment, your frustration will end.
It is nice to share our own opinions, but demanding that others share yours, is the problem,

demanding it? I have that kind of influence? WOW!! Anyone who counts their home as their "investment" vehicle is in some serious trouble,period..I could care less what others think, so i am way not frustrated.. i think it is comical that the replies are from those who "know" that their homes are a great investment keep coming..Keep drinking the Kool-Aid...These same people are likley counting on Social security also :)
Love your home, enjoy your home, don't worry about your home's value, because until the check is cashed the value of your home is only cocktail chatter

Folks, no matter how sensible our explanations of our points of view on the subect to the OP, it falls on deaf ears. As a wise character on "Hill Street Blues" once observed, "You can put your shoes in the oven, but that don't make 'em biscuits."

It seems that all of us may simply be troll-feeding.

Metaphysician wrote: It seems that all of us may simply be troll-feeding.

Well, you're 100% wrong there. Qdog is as about as far from a "troll" as you can get.

I think this arguement has boiled down to simple semantics. I've stayed out of it so far but now that we are sold (YEA), I will put in my two cents.

My home is not an investment to me. It is where I live and work and raise my children. I may be "rare" (as posted above) but I choose where I want to live because it's where I want to live and NOT because a home in that location is likely to appreciate in value in the future. The fact that my last home DID appreciate is a bonus. We knew there was value in the home but it took us almost 10 loooong months to get that money out. Luckily I didn't need the cash for medical treatment, my children's education or even to buy another home. Am I happy we sold for three times what we owed on that mortgage after living there for 10 years?? You bet!!! Did I buy that house "knowing" or even hoping that would happen?? No.

The problem is that when someone posts that they beleive the property, home or house - call it what you may - is an investment, qdog comes back with a counter to press her point.

Let it be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

qdognj isn't a troll but just always has to have the last word.

troll? Come on now,lol...If i was negative on the housing market,would i currently own a home? I'd be posting how smart i was/am to see the coming of the downturn in the market, and how i saved 100's of thousands by waiting to buy after selling high..I believe in homeownership 100%, i also believe people are depending way too much on the value of their homes to finance their future endeavors..

"Love your home, enjoy your home, don't worry about your home's value, because until the check is cashed the value of your home is only cocktail chatter"
What's wrong with a reverse mortgage? It helps my MIL who is sitting on over $1mil. maintain the lifestyle she's accustomed to.

berniek, if that works for her, great.I am not 100% certain reverse mortgages are right for everyone,but for some they work...

gdogni, no one is stating that one aspect of a home as an investment works for everyone. Is that one of your criteria for it to be considered an investment? Because some people may depend too much on their home's equity for future endeavors doesn't mean it cannot be an investment for someone. That just means that person hasn't adequately made other investments. The fact that I can borrow cheap on my home for other investments does make it part of my "investment" portfolio. I can (but I won't) sell my home in CA and walk away with millions and pay cash for a home elsehwere, invest the rest in a CD to live on for life. I know other's do that, I don't plan to so I don't count on my equity for living in the future, but the fact that I bought before the latest run up does make it an investment in my lifestyle that I could not afford if I hadn't bought already. Of course, if necessary, in the future I've always got my home to sell.

I think it also depends on how you've been raised. My parents looked at every home purchase as an investment. Why? Because their hard earned money was going into it. They paid off the mortgage in less than 10 years and reaped the benefit of having bought smartly in a developing area, at a low price, and they quadrupled their money which has now enabled them to buy acreage in Washington and to build a custom home for their retirement. For them, looking at their "home" as an investment worked wonders and paid off big time.

My question is, what's WRONG with viewing your home as an investment? Is it a terrible thing to make that purchase with an eye towards future gains, and then realize those gains? Isn't it better to have made good money on a smartly purchased home than no money on a home that might have felt more "cozy" but was located on the opposite side of the "good" side of town?

Credit (or debit) this to my upbringing, but my dad always said to "stretch" to buy your home -- it will pay off in the long run. That has certainly proven true in his life, and in my earlier purchases. Because I'm stretching to make a payment on a house that is also an investment, I don't have much money left over for other investments. My house is an investment. It has to be. Why else did I leave a rental that cost me $1,000/mo. to move intoto a home that now costs me $2,400/mo. in a sparsely populated but developing area?

It's possible I made a mistake, and it's possible that viewing your home as an investment is not a good thing, but I'm from California where everything just keeps going up and I don't know any differently. I'm in a different state now, one that is suffering from the previous years' booms, and this investment may take longer to realize -- but it's still an investment. It has to be, I have nothing else. This is the scary fact for a lot of people who depend on their current home's appreciation for future buying power.

Since buying my new home, it's effectively depreciated by $50,000 because the builder, who is still in the area, has kept base prices the same but started offering tremendous incentives towards upgrades, free pools, etc. In the short term, I have to view my house as a "home" because I'd lose my shirt if I sold it right now, but 5 years from now I'll likely view it as an investment as this area develops and values start to climb.

As I said earlier, it's all a matter of perspective. If my home never appreciated, however, I'd be screwed -- which is the downside of looking at your house as an investment.

even my critics would think this idea is a recipe for disaster..

Credit (or debit) this to my upbringing, but my dad always said to "stretch" to buy your home -- it will pay off in the long run. That has certainly proven true in his life, and in my earlier purchases. Because i'm stretching to make a payment on a house that is also an investment

"stretching to make a payment" is a poor idea, particularly in light of the appreciation that has occurred, and the lieklyhood of it not continuing to the same extent for a long,long time...Now i await my critics and their interpetation of this "investment" concept..YIKES

""stretching to make a payment" is a poor idea, particularly in light of the appreciation that has occurred, and the lieklyhood of it not continuing to the same extent for a long,long time...Now i await my critics and their interpetation of this "investment" concept..YIKES"

Appreciation is not the only value a home can have.
I had bought a home with a 100% VA loan many years ago. I had a very low interest rate and within a couple of years I had to sell, the house had not appreciated by much, but interest rates had gone through the roof. I sold my house as a non-qualifying assumable loan and made $20k.

gotta love berniek,always has the exception to the rule..lol..Honestly berniek, is it a good idea to stretch in todays market to buy a home? you are a very knowledgeable poster,and perhaps my thinking is too strict ;)

"gotta love berniek,always has the exception to the rule..lol..Honestly berniek, is it a good idea to stretch in todays market to buy a home?"
Absolutely, especially when buying below market value.
Or one has the ability to gain equity by improving the property over time.
Or one does not have a choice and needs to buy because of health, family etc. and renting is not an option.

I don't want to get into the investment/not an investment dispute. However, someone should point out that houses can be a trap as well as an opportunity to make money while obtaining shelter. If you live in an area that takes a sudden economic downturn and you have most of your savings tied up in your house, you could be in for disaster. Some of our posters live in the Detroit area; others live in hard hit parts of Ohio. These people are stuck trying to sell in markets that are worsening every day - with no end in sight.

Consider the formerly thriving lumber town of Forks, WA, recently labeled "a festering sore of a town" by a book describing the worst places to live in the US. When the spotted owl decision was handed down a decade ago, the town's principal industry was wiped out almost overnight. Many homeowners in Forks have faced the horrible choice of abandoning their principal investment, if you will, or staying in a town with virtually no jobs and little or no future.

I've been following this thread with interest & amusement. Some pretty hard line stances here.

For the record, I consider my primary residence an "asset". It shows on my Balance Sheet as such and since we still have 8 years left on our mortgage there's a corresponding "liability" against that asset.

However, when I calculate our "Retirement Savings" that asset is not included. We max out my husband's 401(k) & my IRA before we calculate what we can afford for housing costs.

Houses go up & they go down. Neighborhoods have a life-cycle. If the location, etc. is good, they appreciate over a 2-3 decade period. Over this time frame, there will be periods of higher than normal appreciation & there will be periods of recessionary elements pushing back at the appreciation. Overall, during this time in a home's life cycle the overall average momentum will be up. Then, as they start showing their age...value begins to drop & often these neighborhoods become low income. After that phase, a lone wolf appears & purchases a piece of property...puts hard money into the place & renovates. Then another sees that there's potential in these old, run down places & buys into the lone wolf's dream. Soon, the old neighborhood is considered an "up & coming" place to be. And, the cycle begins anew.

I don't know how long I'm going to own this home I'm living in now. I don't know where it will be in its life cycle when I decide it's time to sell. I may live here 30 years. Or, I may move next month. Due to the uncertainty of both when I will sell & the life cycle of real estate, I do not consider my home as a source of retirement income.

I choose to raise my family in a stable environment. Therefore, I do not bounce them around from one house to another every 3-5 years treating my family home as an "investment" that requires portfolio management.

Of course I'm pleased if the property appreciates. But, you won't see that appreciation on our "Return on Investment" calculations. It shows on the Balance Sheet only.

Personally, I couldn't sleep at night if I was making a mortgage payment so high that I couldn't max out my 401(k) & IRA's every year. I'm old enough to have lived through several "boom & bust" real estate cycles. The appreciation of the last 4-5 years couldn't & won't last indefinitely. Prices will fall back & then slowly climb again. Remember back in the heady Nasdaq days? People were saying such ridiculous things as, "Oh, you're being a fool. It's a NEW economy now." Oh, phooey...there's nothing new under the sun. A company has to eventually make a profit or it will collapse. P/E ratios have to have some sanity behind them. Real estate is no different. It also must find a balanced equilibrium and it will. For some, the pendulum swings are painfull. Because of its inherent "cycles", I don't consider my primary residence either a "cash cow" or a retirement investment.

So, there's another opinion. And, it's just that. My opinion. It works for us. The mortgage lenders say we can afford 5 times as much house as we have. We say that we can't afford that much house. We have to save for retirement first before we start spending. Our parents tought us to always save first.

Tricia

To me, my home is a commodity, like gold, stocks or bonds, with the added benefit of providing a roof over my head.

Usually hang out on the pool forum. Wow just started reading this and can see both sides of the fence but what the blank is this argument about? "An opinion is like a nose. Everyone has one." ( Everyone really knows how that saying goes. It's not nose LOL) One person starts with an opinion. Here is my opinion. It is the only one that matters. Right or wrong it is just that an opinion. One poster doesn't agree with that opinion. Another agrees to disagree and yet another disagrees with the agree'r of the disagree'r. Someone always wants the last word because you don't agree to agree. Now we have an argument and degredation of the thread. Totally confused? ;-)

Now to respectfully disagree with the OP. A house can be a good investment. An asset. A bad investment A liability.
Just one's opinion here.

Definition: Investment
"An asset or item that is purchased with the hope that it will generate income or appreciate in the future. In an economic sense, an investment is the purchase of goods that are not consumed today but are used in the future to create wealth."

Why would a home not be an investment?

No haven't had too much to drink... yet ;-) LOL but celebrating none the less. We just sold our home yesterday after 5+months on the market in Las Vegas and building a new home/pool in FL. No more room for ulcers left.Did borrow an extra stomach just to hold all the Tums and Rum. (New home has been delayed for closing 4x now due to construction delays problems) Two years ago we could have made much much more. 1 year ago much more. We missed the boat so to speak. However we are still fortunate to double our money for what we paid. Enjoyed it and will miss it. Lots of great memories with our DD in this home who worked her butt of during the summer to graduate early from HS last month. Now accepted to her 1st college of choice. We considered the house a great investment in our life in more ways than one but only a stepping stone in the grand scheme of things.Does any of this make sense? :-)