Nova, can you shed some light on what almost a mil buys one in the nova area?

That's a very interesting question, quirky. Northern Virginia is so big that there isn't a typical home that can summarize what's available at the $1M price level. Zip code and proximity to the District remain the main drivers of price. With such awful traffic, commute is another big determinant of price. "Close-In" seems to extend further out each year. I've included a link to our local MLS if you want to poke around. You'll find some swell looking upper middle class homes for a million bucks and some real dogs. We have our fair share of million and up condos too. If my realtor trots out one more $600,000 teardown for me to consider, I swear I'll lose what little is left of my mind.

The house I'm interested in is 4/3, 3000 sq. ft.,30 years old, 1/2 acre in a suburb about 20 miles from the District. It's a standard colonial. From what I can tell, it's been well-maintained with nice updates to the kitchen and the master bath. It's a nice area but not considered one of the high-end NoVa neighborhoods. Five years ago, homes like it would run around $400K.

What characterizes this area is that housing appreciated about 120%-150% over a five year period. Big chunks of that appreciation happened over 2004-2005. Our job market is strong but incomes have not kept pace. As of December 2006, 66% of our non-condo resale inventory was priced at $500,000 or more. 28% of our population makes over $150,000. So, unless you're rolling over lots of equity that's a problem. Moderate income families are priced out of SFH's and most TH's. In the SFH market, rent versus own ratios are running 50-60%. Economic studies from our local powerhouse university state bluntly that we're in an affordability crisis. I think that will reverberate all the way up the housing chain. I read recently that 47% of mortgages in my area the first half of 2006 were I/O's and Option ARMs. I find it hard to believe that many people are playing the leverage game...they're stretching. And yet, you would never know it judging by the heavy traffic at our local malls and restaurants.

And prices have come down. My old neighborhood is running 15% under it's 2005 high. We've corrected a bit but lots of people are holding their breath to see what the spring brings. Then again, we may have morphed into Manhattan and I just didn't get the memo.

Here is a link that might be useful: Northern Virginia MLS

Heere's what's on the market right now in my area of NoVA (22039 zip) in the $900K-$1M range.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fairfax Station homes

It really doesn't matter if you think the price is too high, and you have lots of reasons to prove the seller is wrong. He is in no hurry to sell--you said "over the years he has made improvements" he may have been there long enough to have a low mortgage and low property taxes. So he is not under financial pressure to sell.
You are looking at reasons he should sell for a lower price--instead start trying to find out why he is selling at all. Job change, retirement; change in family size. If there is no particular reason, why should he come down in price?
You are a motivated and qualified buyer--move on to a house you can get.

OMG, I can't believe how much houses cost. I am continually astounded by this. How do people DO it?!?!? I don't get it!

My salary is $250k per year and we have no debt except the mortgage payment, and we think our $380k house is unbelievably expensive! And we have over $100k equity in it. We are downsizing and want to go no higher than $275k for a house. A quarter of a million for a house just seems like way more than plenty to me.

I'm not talking about the people who have lived for years in housing markets that have appreciated unbelievably over the past decades and that's how they move up houses. But how on earth do real, normal people move to places like Northern Virginia or California or New Jersey, get a normal job (or even a great paying job!) and buy a house? How can they afford the payment? Is everyone debt-free with a six digit income? I don't think so... but I just don't get how people can do it. Even people who ARE debt-free with a six digit income couldn't do it!

Even in my remote little area of the midwest, where housing is relatively "inexpensive", I can't believe the number of $400k plus homes. They are all over!

Doesn't this all have to end somewhere? There is going to come a time when people just plain can't afford to buy houses.

at 250k ,you should be able,if you want, to buy and afford a home in the 1 million dollar range without any budget constraints.But, you'd need 1/2 million down :)

I think you described the situation yourself.It is trading up from an overvalued home to the next..We did just that.Sold a 30+ year 1800sf Bilevel(completely renovated with gunite pool/spa, etc)for mid 800's, took the proceeds and rolled into a 4300sf home on 2 acres for more $$$ then i care to admit ;)

I'd be in divorce court if I even suggested buying a house in that kind of price range. DH thinks where we are at now is well beyond our budget (I think he's WAY financially conservative, but neither do I want to have a mortgage for a million dollar house). And he has a nice job, also. Don't have half a million for a down payment, however!

I was offered a great job in the Sacramento area a few years ago but had to turn it down because of the housing market. Thought my DH was going to have a myocardial infarction when he looked at how much houses cost there.

Actually, I'm astounded that you think spending 10% to 15% of your income for housing is a lot. If you have $100,000 in equity in your home, what's the P&I for your mortgage? Maybe $2,000 per month. Your taxes and insurance another $1,000 per month. You're earning over $20,000 per month!

I'm not faulting your desire to downsize. That's your decision. But $275,000 for a house buys you nothing more than a starter home or fixer-upper in many parts of the country. I don't know how people starting out expect to do it, but at $250,000 per year you could choose to live almost anywhere.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, finesse. I realize we are not the 'norm'. And I also realize that my DH is off the charts when it comes to financially conservative. (As frustrating as that has been over the years, I'm trying to find the silver lining in it, such as more savings, nice retirement cushion, etc.)

However I guess my point was more about how people in a middle income range manage to do it.

Akkw, how do people do it? As qdog points out...equity rollovers. But at what point does affordability freeze the trade up chain? If your first time home buyers can't break in, who's buys Fred's house so he can move up into Sally's house etc. etc. Also, I think, more than a few people, have HELOC'd much of this huge appreciation and can't sell at a lower price. So, prices stay very sticky.

I'm starting to hear some fascinating stories about the creative ways people are buying. My FIL's cleaning lady just bought a $500K 4/2 SFH...subprime, option ARM. She's making the payments by renting out 2 of the bedrooms and the basement to relatives. Shhhh, don't tell the zoning authorities.

A federal worker I know just moved his family 65 miles out from his job to buy the home he wanted. They are a one-income family. He's renting a close in small apartment with two of his colleagues. Tuesday-Friday, they live here. Friday-Monday, they commute home. Their hope is that their security-related agency will follow the FBI's lead and move out of the District away from the "blast zone"...a comforting thought to those of us who live closer in.

akkw, while i clearly wouldn't criticize your husband's conservative nature, your comment:

" As frustrating as that has been over the years, I'm trying to find the silver lining in it, such as more savings, nice retirement cushion, etc."

makes me take notice.There is no guarantee that when retirment rolls around(if we indeed make it to that point)you'll be in perfect health to enjoy the fruits of your labor.Why pile up the cash for a time down the road,when you could enjoy some now, all the while saving a tad less?
My motto is "Enjoy TODAY, and keep an eye out for tommorrow"

Hi, Akkw.

One of my brothers is cheap, OOPS, I mean financially conservative. There's nothing wrong with being frugal and saving for retirement. However, as QDog mentions, there's no guarantee we'll make it until then, so enjoy some of it now. I'm often surprised what people do without now so they can save it for later or worse, their children. Too many parents do without so they can leave something to their children when they die. I tell my mother (widowed) and my in-laws not to worry about us, spend it on you now. I know another couple that both worked for the post office. They never took any vacations and just accrued the time so they could retire a little earlier. Wouldn't you know, six months after they retired the husband died. They spent their whole marriage never taking any family vacations so they could have that time in retirement. What a shame.

On the flip side, there are too many people that are fiscally irresponsible. In some cases society ends up paying for their lack of restraint. Neither extreme is good, but of the two, your husband's way is better. It would be nice if you could get him to strike a balance. If you were both content the way things are, I'd say more power to you. In many cases, though, when there's an extremist in the marriage, the partner doesn't subscribe to the same thinking.

That said, I, too, am amazed at how people starting out are able to purchase their first homes. Sometimes it's parents that help; sometimes it's creative financing and overextending. It almost always means both spouses work. On Long Island (Nassau and Suffolk) the median price for a home is around $400,000. That's a lot of money for first time home buyers.

Kevin

I have elderly neighbors whose financial situation I accidentally became privy to.

They were in their early 90s when the husband died, with 3x more money coming in than I make, and they had loved living in Europe, but when they were 60s, and 70, and 80, and in good health, they didn't seem to do ANYTHING w/ that money. And they were STILL cheap in their 80s, and now in her 90s, so it's not like they saved up then to splurge later.

They didn't STOP being extremely frugal in their retirement!

They were lucky to get to their 90s without needing much extra medical attention or assitance, and the widow has $ to help pay for in-home aides during her decline. But still--They

make sure your DH is willing to SPEND some of that money once he does retire!

in ways that matter to the two of you, of course.

akkw,
check out this outher thread:
How does anyone afford to live in California?

Well here's a summary of that topic for you akkw.
Basically when someone in CA is tired of living in an apartment and making some greedy landlord wealthier or it's time to squeeze out some brats and settle down, a buyer will try to save up as much as they can then use "creative financing" to get them into a half-million-dollar shack. after some time passes, maybe a year and time to move up,the 500k shack is now a 600k shack so they have some cash after the sale. they then buy something more expensive and repeat steps 1-3 until one is in harmony.

the wheel of greed spins round and round, where it stops nobody knows.

Interesting conversation (although I apologize for sort of hijacking this thread). My DH is actually only a financially conservative extremist when it comes to housing. It's not a priority for him. We do spend money on vacations and other such things. I don't agree with his extreme opinions but in the interest of marital peace and harmony, I've sort of given in on this topic.

And I don't mean to resurrect one of the other conversations going on this forum, but with some of the money we DON'T spend on a house mortgage, we've been buying farmland (100+ acre farms of hunting ground or crop ground) in a portion of the region where land has notoriously been inexpensive but has been increasing in value quite nicely over the past decade. So this investment, whoops, I mean, this buying and selling thing we have been doing, has netted us a nice chunk of change. We have several farms currently that we own. We use these for recreational purposes until we sell, so that part works out nicely also.

Well, akkw, it's a lot less painful living with a spouse who's house frugal when you can buy such a beautiful home for such a low amount of money. :)

You would not be happy living in a $380,000 house in many other parts of the country.

Kevin

Which is why I'll be living in Iowa for the rest of my life, or else getting a divorce. :0

Actually awkk, I think you and the others took this thread in an interesting direction. You know the old saw. It ainÂt what you make, itÂs what you keep.

Now, IÂve always operated under the assumption that aggressive saving for a self-funded retirement and self-funded retiree health care (to cover the gaps in Medicare) was a good thing. So after paying out 46% of our income in taxes (a figure straight off my tax return), weÂve routinely saved another 22-25% annually. We max our tax deferred accounts and pour the rest into other investments. Good growth=Capital gains. Of course capital gains combined with a good income puts us smack dab into the AMT. No property tax deduction when youÂre in the AMT. No state and local tax deductions when youÂre in the AMT. The other dirty little secret of the AMT is that, despite the Bush tax cuts, our capital gains are taxed at 24%.

But hey, small trade-off for knowing that if ill-health crippled our ability to work until 70 or so, weÂd be okay. We believed that it was easier to over-save while young than make up for under-saving at 80. Maybe, we were just a little too scarred watching our parents long, slow, expensive declines.

We live comfortably not luxuriously. Our choice. We watch our equally upper middle class friends and neighbors drive around in 50K cars, cruise two-three times a year, blanch at their credit card bills, and fret over their 401k statements. We climb into our 10 year old Toyotas very happy with the trade-off we make. Different strokes for different folks.

But, lately, IÂve begun to think that IÂm a chump. This year means testing comes to Medicare. While IÂm not eligible for Medicare yet, I do believe that itÂs a small harbinger of things to come. I know way too much about how under-funded my fellow boomers areÂitÂs my job. GenX just wonÂt be able to pay for all of us. Boomers who saved and conserved may very well be tapped and taxedÂfar more than we expected. Do I mind redistributing my income to those who truly need or to lighten the burden on the generation to follow mine? No. But my Lexus- loaded neighbor? Not so much. So, whoÂs the real chump in the room? Gets a person thinking. IÂm going to go call a travel agent.

I have relatives in Iowa, and i can tell you one thing: the reason homes are relatively inexpensive is there is thee is nothing in Iowa..Their last child graduated college, and he is packing up and leaving the day after graduation.His parents are leaving as soon as their home sells.They are originally from the NE, and relocated for a job 10 years ago+-, and have never cared for the area.I visited once, and the memory i have is going to the Krispy Kreme factory for fresh donuts..The smell permeated the area..Dollar for dollar, their home is un beliveable,but they can't wait to leave

qdognj, you're doing what people typically do about Iowa, which is to generalize and make assumptions based on very limited information. For some people there is "nothing" in the NE. I've lived here all my life, and have traveled extensively so I'm not clueless of what else is out there. If your relatives are originally from the NE they probably are used to the NE. The university town where I work and which is close to where I live is comparable to many other smaller-city university areas in terms of cultural diversity, population distribution etc. And the cost of living is great, schools are the best in the country, there is NO traffic, people are very friendly, and there is no crime. Something to be said for all of that.

novahomesick,

Right there with ya.

(Except in my case, it's a 9 year old Nissan)

no criticizing Iowa, just pointing out ,first hand, another view of Iowa...I would debate seriously the thought of Best schools in country, as my relative is a teacher, currently in Iowa and previously in NJ and PA, and according to her, no comparison..And she notes, many kids graduate college, and leave the state for better job opportunities..Now those who lived in a congested area like the NE, might find the pace of life in Iowa akinned to watching paint dry.And those who grew up in Iowa, might find the NE,overcrowded,homes overpriced, and harried lifestyle..To each his own

Your relative's viewpoint is not at all unusual -- it's the one that most people outside of the state have. I agree qdognj -- to each his own. And I have no doubt that college grads from here tend to move on to bigger cities with more job opportunities.

I was referring to public schools overall in Iowa compared to the nation as a whole. There is always good and bad, wherever you go. There are some very small districts in Iowa that are definitely not up to par, but in general Iowa public schools are nationally ranked. No one sends their kids to private school here. We have many friends who have moved out of state over the years and their universal complaint is that they miss the schools here. It tends to be a good place to raise a family. And yes, there are many, many other good places to raise a family too.

Now we are REALLY on a tangent from the main point of this thread.

Iowa may not have the weather and cultural offerings of other places but I could live there if the people were friendly and other recreational opportunities. Not enough trees in that yard but we can work with that.
Afterall, isn't that why people live in socal? It's certainly not for their football team.

lol,you are correct about changing direction of thread..My belief is that it would be difficult for someone to dramatically change lifestyles,such as moving from the NE corridor to Iowa and vice-versa..I am having a tough time moving from Northern NJ(15 miles west of NYC) to a NW suburb of Philadelphia(20 miles+-)...I feel like i am in Iowa :)

LOL :) To this day, even after living here forever, I cannot get used to people waving at me on roads in the rural areas of Iowa (I have always lived in 100,000+ population Iowa towns and they don't do it in town). But in rural Iowa, when people pass you in a car, they wave at you, total stranger or not. Can't tell you how many times I have almost driven in the ditch trying to quickly wave back at someone before they pass by me so they don't think I am rude by ignoring them! LOL

Ha Ha. In June we're moving from Long Island to the west coast of FL. In our numerous trips down there we've become more conditioned to the MUCH slower pace. It's still tough to get used to.

On one of the trips last year I made a mistake thinking I was pulling into the driveway of a model home. I went to the door and knocked since it was locked. As soon as the woman came to the door I realized my mistake. I apologized and started to leave. She asked if I was from NY. When I said yes, she pleaded for me to come in for awhile, which I did. She was a sweetheart, and I laughed as she told me how she's been dying to talk to a New Yorker again. Every once and a while she needed to talk at a NY pace. I guess it's kind of like owning a high performance car that you just drive to the market. Every once in a while you just have to get it out on the highway!

Overall, we're looking forward to the slower pace. That's why we didn't choose the east coast - too much like NY. Many of our neighbors are from the Midwest. Midwesteners seem to prefer the west coast of FL, New Yorkers prefer the east.

Kevin

Hey Kevin,

It will take you awhile to get used to. But hopefully it will be a good thing. The part of Iowa where I work is very fast paced (academic research setting) compared with the rest of the state, which is very s-l-o-o-o-w-w-w. I have a really hard time with it sometimes and I forget to enjoy it for what it is.

akkw, do they do the one-finger salute on your country roads?

No, not the middle finger, and not an insult--they lift their index finger off the steering wheel as they approach--the hand version of a nod.

My mom used to laugh that she knew she'd become "friends" w/ some guy she regularly passed when he began lifting all FOUR fingers off the steering wheel.

(I grew up in Iowa, Mount Ayr to be exact. And I live in NYC now. But I have classmates who stayed--if not in Iowa, then nearby, and I have friends from MO who live in IA now, too)

I remember when the Bush folks came to town and found out what they could NOT afford in housing.
A few that had independent money to start with lived where they wanted.
Many others had to scramble to find housing on Presidential Cabinet salaries. Without enough money down they ended up being stretched pretty bad in a few cases.

Fairfax Satation is actually 'out' if you are commuting into Washington every day and wnat to drive less thn 45 minutes. McLean is about 20 minutes from Washington, and parts of Arlington are less than 10 minutes.
There are condos in Rosslyn on the Virginia side of the Key bridge into Washington that run into the multi-million range.
A 5 minute commute to the capital from Virginia is a rather pricey thing.

Wow, qdognj, you should get out more. :-) It can be challenging but it's not life-threatening to move out of state, usually. I grew up in Colorado from age 6, moved to West Texas at 18 to go to college, then to central Texas, then to SoCal, and now to Oregon. The summer house is in Maine.

My husband moved from Maine to SoCal at the age of about 35, taking a boat, 4 kids, a (now ex-)wife, and 2 guinea pigs along. That's a real change of pace.

In SoCal I knew a woman who had never moved farther than 10 miles from the house she grew up in. That was a little scary to me.

I first encountered the index finger salute on the long roads of Texas. That's when I became enamored of cowboys. The real ones. There's a gentleman quality to them.

Ok, back to regularly scheduled programming.

brickeyee wrote: Fairfax Satation is actually 'out' if you are commuting into Washington every day and wnat to drive less thn 45 minutes. McLean is about 20 minutes from Washington and parts of Arlington are less than 10 minutes.

Not everyone who lives in Fairfax Station commutes into DC (rather Chantilly, Fair Oaks, Belvoir, Merrifield, Tysons) although I know plenty of people who do and they don't spend 45 minutes in the car either.

McLean to DC in 20 minutes? Really? Would that be off peak?

Personally I would never live in Arlington or McLean either (too close in).

talley sue: mostly I get the four finger wave version. I think. I must really rate.

Actually I am still trying to remember to look at passing cars in time to even notice. I should probably double check; maybe they are really giving me the finger... :)

Mount Ayr? Heard of it but never been there. North? I am in the Iowa City area, as you have probably already figured out. I am a clinician and researcher there.

brickeyee: Well, I'm glad that at least some of the Bush folks didn't have independent money.

I've spent tons of time in DC (business related) but as a visitor, obviously. I could live there, but my husband would be suicidal there. And not sure I would want to have kids there. But people do it, so I'm sure one just needs to know how to do it and where to live.

minet: have to agree with you on the cowboy thing (the real ones). And I know many people here in the Idiots Out Wandering Around state that have not moved more than ten BLOCKS from where they were born (my in-laws would qualify there, unfortunately). Drives me crazy too, I promise you. Every second of my life.

Akkw: I'm jealous. My grandfather was born in Mason City and it's where my great grandparents settled a couple of years after they married in 1909.

Between the stories my mother had of summer vacations at her grandmothers house in Mason City and all of the papers/pictures I've gone through that were long ago locked in a chest until my grandfathers death, I'm so in love with the idea of Mason City and Iowa it hurts.

Out of all of the places around the world I've lived in and been to, I've yet to make it to Iowa. It's a "short" drive from where I am now in Michigan, and some day, I WILL make the trip there.

The number of cheap houses just begging to be restored pains me. =)

ultraviolet: Mason City is a wonderful town. I can't get my DH north (not even Iowa North) but I have tried to move him to Mason City several times because I love the town. It is really beautiful.

The gorgeous old homes waiting to be restored. Don't even get me started on that. It is my dream.

Talley sue
The index finger wave is always combined with a nod. ItÂs in my country bumpkin handbook. However, the raising of the index finger allows one to reduce the full movement of the nod to a very slight almost non detectable movement and to reduce the accompanying facial expressions such as a big old smile that one would convey with a nod only. Those very versed in the finger wave may even substitute the subtle nod with an uplifting look of the eyes only.

Mt. Ayr is in the southwest--in Iowa's second-poorest county, Ringgold. At the intersection of Highways 2 and 169.

I've been to River City--er, Mason City. We used to always stop at the Baskin-Robbins there on our way to Minnesota to visit grandparents, back when I was a kid. I thought Mason City was the coolest, because it had a Baskin-Robbins.

And the one time I went through as a grownup, I nearly got killed! Three times! In the smal half-hour!

Having moved half a continent away from my childhood home, I have to say sometimes I envy those are are content where they are. The continuity and security, and the depth of knowledge they develop, are something I sometimes wish I had.

Iowa sounds really nice. We are possibly looking to move when we retire to somewhere less expensive than IL. We'll have to check out Iowa since we want to stay in the Midwest.

But I have heard that Iowa has a big meth addict problem. (true?) Which is also a problem in certain rural areas of IL.

Is there really any place that DOESN'T have a meth problem now? Even in suburban metro Detroit you hear of meth labs being busted more often than you'd imagine. While it seems to be more of a rural thing (guess that's maybe because of the smells or something?) a few months ago there was a report of a lab in a fairly decent motel near a large college town here in Michigan.

I will say, however, that the one time we took a detour to avoid I75 construction in rural Tennessee was scary. The scenery was beautiful but everything about it and the people screamed "meth country". =)

Is there really any place that DOESN'T have a meth problem now?

New York City?

seriously, we don't have much of a meth problem. I guess it's because we're in close quarters, and the smell would give it away. I think there *was* a meth arrest in NYC recently, but it sounded like they got tagged in their first 24 hours.

From a drug-rehab site:
"Meth: Meth trafficking and abuse is a limited but growing problem in New York.

Club Drugs: Most of New York City's meth supply is from the west coast via couriers who fly to the west coast, pick up one-half pound to a kilogram of meth and then return to the New York area. "

How's that for a switch? "Escape drugs by moving to NYC!"

"McLean to DC in 20 minutes? Really? Would that be off peak?"

That would be peak.
Mortgage + tranportation = A Constant

Live further out with a lower mortgae, give up hours a day commuting, and if you go really out (Warrenton) buy a new car every other year.
One thing that is driving the close in prices up is the land value.
Smaller houses are valued at $100,000 on a $400,000 lot.
Knock it down, put up a new house, sell for ~1 million.
It has slowed lately in McLean but it stil going on.
Another house on Westmoreland 2 block outside Arlington just turned into a hole in the ground last week.
One of the best school groups in Fairfax County (Haycock-Longfellow-McLean).
The small 600 square foot house (20 ft x 30 ft) on a crawlspace are going down one after another.
Up goes a 40 ft x 40 ft 2 story with basement and garage under (>3200 sq ft).
Prices seem to hover right around $1-1.2 million.

brickeyee wrote: That would be peak

OK...if you say so. :) I didn't think it was possible to go 12 miles in 20 minutes around there at peak traffic times. Let's just say it has never worked for me!

We moved out of Fairfax partially because of the traffic and congestion. My old house was on a 1/3 acre lot, ~4000 sq feet, assessed at $849K (land 252K, house 597K) and will sell for less, probably ~800K. The new house is on 5.5 acres, ~6000 sq feet, assessed at 950K+ (land 284K, house 676K) but did cost us more. (I will never be able to go back to a city lot after being out here in the country!) Living farther out didn't lower our mortgage but it did buy us the quiet and privacy that we craved (especially welcome after the NFH at the other house), so it is worth it to us.

Luckily my h doesn't commute into DC but Chantilly and I work here in Western Loudoun.

It is interesting following this thread on NoVa because Chantilly was one relocation site that we specifically turned down due to QOL issues. (We turned down Denver because it was too cold and too far from our sailboat!)

I think my DH is related to akkw's DH - very uhhh...frugal. We have never bought the most expensive house or car that we could afford. We get what we need and like, value, quality allowed. We pay off the one credit card every month and max out retirement investments. But we aren't waiting until retirement to use the money we have set aside. We cashed in the boat fund and bought our dream sailboat a couple of years ago when the timing was right, and now find that our used boat is worth more than what we paid for it (unbelievable???). We were able to buy a great house in FL to relocate to, without selling another house. And pretty much whenever we're mentally ready, we'll be able to shut the house up and take off cruising with the kids (boat-schooling).
I'm not trying to brag or anything, but I just shake my head when I see my neighbors working overtime hours to pay for their 3 fancy cars (two drivers w/small kids) - they admitted to this folly. And so many friends who are house-poor (friends here in CA) and/or commuting hours a day and later realizing how much of their kids' lives they have missed (mostly friends back there in NoVa). Not even factoring in anybody losing jobs or in poor health. This is just folks who have gotten themselves in a bind due to their choices.

Wow... boat-schooling! I am really jealous. Now if I could just get DH to like boats!

c9pilot, our DH's are totally related. That is the way we live our lives too. We own outright several large farms. When there is something we want or a trip we want to take, we spend the money. But we are not house-poor or car-poor by any means.

As for meth, yes, there are some meth sites found around here, according to the news. Mostly in the rural areas of the state. I have never found one or known of anyone who has. We have several hundred acres of timber that I walk through a lot (plus have permission to walk through several hundred other very remote timbered acres that friends and family own) as metal detecting is a hobby of mine and I metal detect in old settlment areas. I have never seen a meth lab. (LOTS of deer, a few coyotes, and a mountain lion, but not a meth lab).

"I didn't think it was possible to go 12 miles in 20 minutes "

Not all of Mclean is 12 miles out of DC, and the GW parkway is a dead shot and moves very nicely in the morning.

c9 pilot wrote: It is interesting following this thread on NoVa because Chantilly was one relocation site that we specifically turned down due to QOL issues.

Personally I would never, EVER live in Chantilly. My h has a really nice office there, though!

Laura1202-
I saw that in your posting - that your DH worked in Chantilly. If my DH's job moved us back there, we wouldn't have necessarily moved there, but at least nearby because he is SICK of the commute he has now in the SF Bay area (1hr to work, 1+15 back, depending on traffic).
But we don't like the sprawl, and the further west we lived, the further we would be from our boat on the Chesapeake. Chantilly would be close to 2hrs away already. Our FL home will have the boat in the backyard - can't beat that!

Hi, C9pilot.

Where in FL are you building. We live on the water on Long Island and are building on the water in Gulf Cove, which is part of Port Charlotte on the west coast of FL. Just yesterday our boat arrived in FL. We shipped it down in advance of our moving in June. Even though our dock and boat lift is in already, we're going to leave it in a boat yard until we get there.

We could never imagine not living on the water.

Kevin

Kevin, I'll have to look that up on a map/chart.
We bought a 30-yr-old home in St. Pete off Boca Ciega Bay. Our boat is on the hard in MD because it was too $$$ to ship her here to CA and back for a 2-year military tour.
The original 30-yr owners never had a boat so they had a tiny unused dock. We are putting in a large one with dolphins and a runabout lift. Not sure when this summer we can find time to bring the boat down.
We are also remodeling the main part of the interior with a brand new high-end kitchen with eating bar, den for kids to do HW, single dining room and family room.
We hope to stay in this house for 7 to 9 years, so the $$$ going in is for us, and not expecting to get $ for $ return on it. We hope to keep taxes as low as possible, so we figure down there in FL it's in buyers' interests to buy low and make improvements themselves rather than pay high for a high-end finish home.
(Just to swing us back on topic!)
R/
Lisa