Ian, I'm laughing at myself that I'm trying to offer you any advice, you've done a great job and I've never built a pool, just have read way too much the past 3 months to consider myself a bit informed (okay so I have about 15% knowledge! :))

I'm not sure what you mean about the raised beam at the back, but the ledge in the deep end seems a bit off...I've seen many many designs and none that have such narrow edges...something in that part of the design looks like you could tweak it to get better utility from a seat ledge in the deep end...I'm assuming this is a gunite pool? In my area, the prices I've received so far are 48k...he said they couldn't build it for 24k when I told him I had considered subbing it out myself (I acted as GC on a full house remodel last year 4,000 sq. feet)...I don't know if I really believe him, but I was hoping to get mine for about 42k...38x16 pool going from 4'-6' deep with nothing extra besides adding one pool light and 3 of those small jet streams to add a water sound out there...

Let us know what you get, I do know that in AZ you get a better deal on gunite because they do more of them...thanks!!

Tara

Hi Tara,

Thanks for your reply. I know what you mean with the 'rest' area in the deep end. It's kind of a compromise. I want to try and keep a 'lane' open for swimming laps while having some elements of a play/relaxation pool. The 36' end to end is the swim lane whilst the overlarge 2nd step and fairly large shallow area are the play bits. The step in the deep end is 18" wide in the middle and is more there as a rest spot for younger kids than a seating area.

Our daughter is 8 and only learnt to swim well this year. We have her in proffesional swim lessons right now in preperation for the pool being open next spring hopefully. She is a water baby and loves to be in a pool. This is the driving force mainly behind the build.

Still haven't decided which way to go on the build. We have good quotes form some reputable pool companies here in AZ but for a much more limited design. It was suggested to me by somebody at work that I GC the build myself to save money. Budgets are tight with the house build and move coming up and when I started pricing what I could get from a builder it was not what I hoped to get. I have spent most of the last 2 or 3 month researching pools while the house is being built and the design is the current state of that research.

Seems prices in AZ are cheaper than some other areas due to the size and competition in the pool industry here. By doing some of the work myself I hope to be able to get something like the design we have now for the budget. Still need to go get some quotes though to answer that question. If I can save $5k or more then I will build it, if not then we will have it built as the trouble factor is worth that to us.

Thanks

Ian

Sorry, I didn't answer your other question.

The Raised Beam at the back is a stepped area bringing the Bond beam up eventualy to about 2 feet or so above the water at the center. Still in it's early phases as I haven't fully researched the construction so for now I simply show it as a 12" deep section of the concrete beam stepping up in 6" 'steps' to the middle. Not sure if I need to raise the beam or if I can get away with constructing the raised sections from something else such as cinder block or brick. Need to research that yet. Both would be cheaper than the concrete and I would be able to do it myself, but not sure they would be strong enough or if they would be to code. Maybe I can leave steel up from the shell and pour additional concrete to make it rather than shooting it with the shell.

Plan to use it as the foundation for some form of 'feature' at the back of the pool. Maybe a set of raised flower beds, maybe some scuppers or overflow pots. Something like that. Will run piping to it at least.

Thanks

Ian

Nice plan. It is going to be beautiful.

It looks like you have 30" of walkway along that backside. Is that right. Most builders put a standard three feet, but I'd recommend going 4 feet.

The only way you'll get it built under 25k is to act as GC. I'll be glad to share names of subs with you. I'm in NE Phoenix.

The only thing I see that looks a little off is the way the steps tie into the pool walls. Usually the steps tie into the wall at an angle and radius into the wall rather than merging in on a tangent like they're shown on your plan. It's not a big deal, they can build what you have shown but the tie-ins will probably look a little different.

Acting as PB on your own pool is something that gets discussed here from time to time. I am an architect and a long-time gearhead and DIYer. I never even considered acting as PB on our pool because I couldn't be there 24/7 to monitor the subs and I don't have the connections in the industry to be assured I've got the best subs. I also wanted to have the ability to make one phone call if something goes wrong while the pool and equipment are under warranty too. There are a lot of people that have acted as PB and more power to them, I'm sure they saved some bucks. But for me it wasn't worth it on something for which the smallest mistake can result in an ugly outcome.

houseful: Originally it was a 2.5' walkway (trying to keep deck area down), however I changed it to a stepped raised beam to base a future feature of some sort on. I looked at pulling it out to 3' before adding the beam for the reasons you mention. Had it at 2' to begin with, soon changed that... :)

I am in the midst of writing a 'quote me' package for subs and have a list of a few now. If you could send me more that would be awesome. Want to send the initial quote request out to as many subs as I can before I start narrowing them down. Any recomendations would be great as well. You can mail me by adding '@cox.net' to the end of my username.

You have a valid point with the GC question. Probably a $30-$35k pool as it stands right now from a builder. 'IF' I can build it for $25k then that is a significant saving and worth the time. Need to get quotes to answer the 'if' though I guess.

tresw: The steps have been a major headache to try and fit in. Have moved them all over the place and changed them multiple times. I think I see what you mean though with them needing to join the wall at more of an angle. I will play with them some more. Maybe I can cut them down a little in length and then round off the ends in towards the wall more? I was trying to avoid 'dead' spots though where a cleaner could get stuck or where dirt could accumulate.

I really am up in the air on the GC issue. I am pretty confident I have the project management experience and fiscal skills to do it but time is the key. I am able to work from home some and was thinking I could take some vacation for other parts. Not all the subs would need me breathing over their shoulder, mostly the key pieces and more for my own piece of mind maybe. From what I read I doubt the PB would be standing over their shoulder either so I would still have to keep an eye on them to some degree. Also there are so many examples on this and other forums of bad PB experiences that paying somebody to do it doesn't always mean it gets done better anyway. There is much to be said for the single point of responsibility in a PB. Problem is that the potential savings seem to be considerable.

I think I am going to get sub-quotes on the pool before I make the decision. Money is the main deciding factor for us right now after all. I know what a smaller design of the same pool is going to cost from a PB. If this one can be built for the same or less then that will be the decider.

Thanks for all the help. Spent so long buried in this that it is great to get fresh perspectives.

Ian,
There's some things that some people might do differently, but for the most part it looks ok.
I like that you seperate the skimmer/main drains.
If youput an infloor in make sure its not on the same feed line as the returns... I think you would know that. You'll want to be able to trim the pressure down/up to the heads.

the whole GC thing... well, im a builder, so I have my side of the argument. Youjust have to make sure you have the time, knowledge, and patience. Alot of what you said about PBs is true, but there are certainly some very good builders in az that do take the attention needed to build quality pools and try to keep a decent reputation.
On another note, you are in a buyer's market right now. Most (not all) builders have dramatically cut their margins right now to keep their head above water. Your decision, if you decide to have a builder take over, is a tricky one. Many builders are on their last leg right now... just-a-pb can attest with me that AZ builders are crashing left and right right now. Do your research, get referrals, check the BBB and Registrar records for complaints, both past and current, and make an informed decision. With all that in line its my opinion that the public has a huge advantage to build right now.
just my .02

I forgot to mention that your drawings look very good, you have obviously already put a lot of thought into this!

Quote: "Maybe I can cut them down a little in length and then round off the ends in towards the wall more?"

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking when I looked at the drawing. But your drawings certainly would be fine for bidding, I only mentioned it because they might say "is it OK if I change this a little bit..."

Quote: "I was trying to avoid 'dead' spots though where a cleaner could get stuck or where dirt could accumulate."

It looks like you're in good shape there. We have a big baja shelf like yours and the cleaner doesn't go across it, but we've got a jet blowing across it and it stays pretty clean. You'll probably get a little sand/ dirt accumulating in the steps next to the shelf too, when I get in the pool I just brush them off by hand. It's hard to get enough water circulation across there to keep them clean.

Quote: "From what I read I doubt the PB would be standing over their shoulder either so I would still have to keep an eye on them to some degree."

It's true that the PB isn't standing there watching everything a sub does. But they don't have to because if they are a quality PB that has been in the business for quite some time then they have developed long-term relationships with their subs. It's reciprocal, they work with those subs because the subs do work for them and the subs do good work for them because they know they'll get more work as a result. That's not to say an individual acting as their own PB can't get good work out of subs, but the subs don't have as much incentive to do a great job because they are not going to get any repeat business out of it.

Quote: "Also there are so many examples on this and other forums of bad PB experiences that paying somebody to do it doesn't always mean it gets done better anyway."

That's for sure. As Naturalone said, it is extremely important to do a very thorough check on the PBs you're considering. When we bid our pool project out we wanted a good price, but that was actually secondary to making sure we got a high quality PB that had been around a long time and had a rep for treating their customers like gold. Pool forums are ripe with stories of people that saved a few thousand bucks by going with a questionable low bidder only to have to pay many times what they "saved" to fix serious problems later, or finish a project that the PB bailed on. In most cases they didn't do their due diligence on the PB they selected or they would have known there was trouble ahead.

Whatever you decide, good luck with your project!

natural_one: Yes I wanted the Skimmer and Drains seperate. I have seen discussions on putting them on the same line but I want the felxibility of being able to drain the pool using the drains if I need to and I also think the two sets of piping may put less strain on the pump at the cost of a little more pipe and a couple of valves. We're planning to use an IntelliFlow so I don't have to walk the bore size vs. HP tightrope.

I haven't thought much on the in-floor other than allowing for a return and a position for the valve box if needed. I am not sold on having one or not yet. I would put it on a seperate line from the returns and valve it as you say though so I can balance the flow. I have seen discussions on not needing returns with an in-floor but I don't agree. What if a pop up head breaks for example?

tresw and natural_one: If I gave the impression that I thought all PBs where bad and that they will take my money and run then I am sorry. That was not my intent. I know there are good as well as bad PBs out there (as with anything) and that with the right one I will get a very good product and experience.

The problem is that we have a very limited budget with the house and so on that we do not have as much left for the pool as we would otherwise wish. There is a fine line between our being able to pay cash for the pool and having to finance part of it. We do not want to finance it. If we can keep the budget to under $25k then we are OK. When I gave the PBs this budget we struggled to get what we wanted and I was forever making compromises. This design is what we think we can do if we self build for that budget. A PB build will only get us a smaller pool and deck area for the same money of course.

What you have said however has made me think some more and maybe there is a middle ground. I am going to think on the idea of a mix of the two. If we buy the equipment and do some of the work (trenching, electrical conduit, etc.) then maybe we can get a (mostly) PB build nearer to this design. I can shrink it a little as well to help, maybe a foot or so off the length.

Will need to find out if any of the PBs are willing to work like that ofcourse, but I like the idea the more I think about it. We lose any PB warranty on the equipment of course but I am not overly concerned with that as I am pretty mechanically minded and will get Manufacturers warranties anyway. More concerned with the Shell and Plumbing Warranties and the coordination/supervision of the build.

We narrowed it down and where working with 3 main stream, very reputable companies when we where pricing with the PBs and if we self built we would only use Registered, bonded and insured contractors. I have the ROC and BBB websites saved... :)

From my posts you would think that price was the only consideration here but it isn't. I do know that 'value' is the sum of much more than just price. We have quotes from PBs that would give us what we want supposedly for our budget, I just didn't trust them or didn't like the companies.

I can't seem to answer a post on here without it becoming 'essay' length can I? :)

Hi ipgregory,

As one of the few posters on here that hired a PB, but ended up having to act as the contractor, I can tell you about the pros and cons from our perspective. Our pool is the "Infinity Edge" one on another thread. The best advice I can give you is this - there is no right or wrong answer. You'll probably be fine regardless of which method you choose.
We started with a PB one year ago this month. We had done our homework with the ROC and the BBB, our PB had won multiple awards, but he still ended up taking a nosedive. We took over finishing the pool about a month ago. There are many GOOD qualified pool builders out there - they will give you a beautiful pool for a fair price. They definitely know what they're doing and most are very good at it. However, I thought it would be reassuring that someone else was managing the subs and the timing. I was very wrong! If you are the take-charge type, having a PB can be difficult. You have to hand over the reins and let someone else do it. I was forever being the go-between lady with the subs and our PB and quite frankly, felt that most of it was just a waste of time. Our PB was practically non-existent and we ended up answering the questions that our subs had about the design, etc. We had made the same arrangement with our PB as you are talking about - we negotiated his price down (he was originally the high bidder) by doing a lot of the things ourselves. We dug trenches, expanded our main electrical panel, provided the flagstone and stackstone, and were doing our own deck and BBQ kitchen. We did this in order to keep the items we wanted for our pool without breaking the budget.
It didn't work out for us because our PB went under, but it certainly doesn't mean that it won't work for you. If you hire a PB, just make sure that the pool doesn't sit for weeks on end with no progress. We ended up hiring our own plumber and electrician to finish the job our PB had started, and the final phase (the interior) is being done by a different PB simply because they were able to do it for less than we could with a sub. Many times builders can get a better price on tile, interior finishes, etc. than a homeowner can. It all depends on their mark-up. Good subs know what they're doing and don't need someone to tell them how to apply shotcrete, plumbing, plaster, etc. Our pool will be finished this Monday, and we've gotten further in the last month than we did for months on end with our PB. The people on here are incredibly knowledgeable and this forum is priceless for information. Do LOTS of research, I can't emphasize that enough. It sounds like you are well aware of the process and what it entails. It's a tremendous amount of work, especially for the inexperienced. We knew nothing about pools a year ago, and now I know more than I ever cared to.
If we had to do it all over again (YIKES), we would hire the subs out ourselves from the beginning. The only reason I say that, though, is because now we know WHO to call to get it done correctly. There are many around Phoenix who have been in the business a long time and know what they're doing. They build them every day! Get a good excavation company. They provide the base which everyone else will be working off of. If they get it wrong, everything else will be off. Our excavator was top notch, and used the backhoe like a finely tuned instrument. He was fascinating to watch, and was incredibly precise in his elevations. I would recommend these companies - Nichols Excavating, Discount Steel, Jay's Plumbing, Diversified Shotcrete, and Cal Plastering if you can get them. Cal was the tricky part, because they don't bid to homeowners - only pool companies. Even if you have to get a PB at the very end to finish it, do it. If you choose to go the PB route, remember that there are many beautiful pools that have been finished by reputable companies. There are risks either way, not matter how you slice it. There are some excellent PB's right here on this forum - including natural_one.
This whole thing simply depends on how much you WANT to do. If you want to leave the hassles for someone else and wait expectantly for a beautiful pool, hire a PB. If you like being in the thick of things and researching like crazy, then go for building it yourself. That's my two cents worth. Hope this helps even a little.

Hi birdbath,

I have been watching your thread and rooting for you with everyone else. Waiting with baited breath for your water next week although I will be out of the country and won't catch the finale (hopefully) until I get back the week after.

You make some very good points. Yours was one of the more troubling stories of PB problems that I have come across for me personally because your builder is local and it happened so recently.

We are now considering the 'mixed' approach assuming we can find a PB that wants to work with us in that manner. Looking over our design to decide what we should do ourselves and what is best left to a PB. If we can't find a builder willing to work with us, then we will most likely tackle the build as an OB.

Luckily we still have a couple of months to go before they finish the house. Can't begin to think of starting the pool before then so plenty of time yet.

ip gregory- hmm, I would always put returns on infloor systems for sure. Im not sure about other infloor companies but Polaris Caretaker has a lifetime warranty to the original homeowner. Rarely do heads "break" but if they do you are covered. Along with a 99% clean gaurentee, Id say it's a smart investment.
Oh, and I didnt mean to sound like I thought you were saying all builders are bad. I know what you meant :)

Your combination of do it yourselfs with a builder may or may not work. It will all just come down to what exactly those items are. Many builders will only allow certain things to be taken over by a homeowner. It usually comes down to a warranty and liability discussion.

birdbath- thank you for the kind words.

Hi ntural_one,

Hypothetically of course, what things will a typical pool builder not want to let us do ourselves? Right now I am thinking of doing the electrical trenching (100' to our panel) and conduit and supplying the pump, filter, valves, light units and load/power center.

If I also remove (for now) all the deck except for a 2.5' strip around the non-raised front half of the pool and just cap the raised beam area for now (kinda like a stepped deck) in your opinion can I make our budget with this design as it stands? What if I include the in-floor into the mix?

Just saw your pool thread. That pool you are building is AWESOME! Can't wait for the next lot of pictures.

Thanks

Ian