You think it's bad in central Mississippi, you need to read some of our Mississippi Gulf Coast experiences! We have a small lot and only wanted something they call a spool, bigger than a spa, smaller than a pool. We were quoted almost $34,000, and this was for fiberglass!

I share your frustration, believe me - you feel like you were shot down before you even got started! All we've got to show for our experience are the orange and green paint marks where the "Call before you dig" people came out and marked the utility lines.

cword, I feel your pain. When we originally started to look at pools over a year ago, my parents were beyond sticker shocked. After researching and and getting other estimates, every one of the PB's in our area were roughly the same cost wise. The pool you are planning is roughly the same as we are currently building although a bit bigger, but I can tell you that your quotes are a bit cheaper than ours is costing us. Go figure.

A 34,000 gal pool for $57,000 is not exactly out of line in this area. I am in Louisiana, not too far from where you are. Pool prices here are not like they are in Florida where its alot cheaper to build. I paid $40,000 for a 17,000 gal gunite pool. The only extras were the wall on one side with the two sheer descent waterfalls. I did get alot of extra decking too. Maybe you should find other people in your immedaiate area who have had pools build recently to find out what the going rate is. This is definitly a luxury item and cost alot of $$$$$$'s.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:2030150}}

Can't open your "pool" link?

If you live in the Madison area of Jackson, you are correct about the ridiculous prices. Isn't that the way it is in any upscale neighborhood though? Everything in that area of town is way too expense. South of Jackson in Byram, prices are drastically lower. My advice is to look towards Yazoo City for some contractors or look south of Jackson.

I'd say you should contact the DA for an investigation into the apparent intimidation of people that you speak of. But then again, he's probably his own uncle and his sister that he's married to is likely the only judge in town. Bummer.

Have you considered a blow up pool? I'm sure the south does not have a monopoly on air.

Wow. Some people just don't get it. I'm not in your area but find it hard to believe that the "old boys club" really cares at all if they build your pool or you do it yourself. At the same time, put yourself in their position.
I don't know what you do for a living but say for example you are a lawyer.
Suppose a potential client comes in to see you and when you explain your fee schedule they decide you are too expensive. On the way out the door the potential client stops at your paralegal's desk and asks if they would be willing to help the client with their legal matter on the side. If your paralegal is smart he will say no. It's not because he is "scared" of you. It's because he respects you and appreciates the fact that you pay his mortgage 52 weeks of the year.
Why do you assume that the builders are colluding against you. You received 4 quotes within about 5% of each other. Seems like pretty tight bidding to me.
You seem to think these contractors are trying to get rich off you, the fact is that we work hard to make a decent living and our overhead is way more than most people outside the construction industry would believe.
In my market you wouldn't get a price for a 34,000 gallon gunite pool for anywhere near what you are seeing even after excavation.
Not trying to be argumentative but I hear this type of thing occasionally from prospective clients and while I make a good living, they all drive nicer cars and live in nicer homes than I do and I don't resent them making more money than I do.
Just my 2cents.

repair guy, way to perpetuate a stereotype. I know your response is tongue-in-cheek, and I appreciate sarcasm, but I find your response not only inappropriate, but demeaning as well.

With that said, I am not trying to start some sort of debate/internet war. I know you are very knowledgeable about pools and the pool industry and I read your comments with much interest; always learning something new.

I apologize if I am making a mountain out of a mole hill, but in my travels it aggravates me when someone finds out I live in the south/MS, and immediately draws some sort of backwoods conclusion not knowing me nor my background.

Sorry, guess it's been a long day. I assumed humor was in order as the original post referred to EVERYONE in the pool industry as the GOOD OLE BOYS network. Seems a bit sterotypical as well but the poster had no issue in saying it. So, in the spirit of the election year, I completely retractand disavow myself from my previous post and my apology to you and every person born south of the Mason Dixon line that may be offended by my comment. As long as you're not voting for Hillary, you're a friend of mine.

You know, I have been following this thread and I also found that the comment that repair guy made about the south a bit insulting. Its ashame when stereotypes are made. Anyway, as I mentioned in my previous post, the price that was given for a 34,000 gal pool just does not seem to be outrageous for what the going rate here is. I will try my link again. I don't know why I can't get my images to show up on this site. I've been doing it on a photography forum for years. My hosting site is pbase.
http://www.pbase.com/teppy/image/95145211.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/teppy/image/95145195.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/teppy/image/95145216.jpg

Touche my friend, I concede to your point about lumping all PB's into a one category as inappropriate as well. Words mean something, and I took your humor the wrong way. It's been a long day for me too and I really meant no harm. Just venting.

At least our political convictions are aligned. If the media thinks the economy is in a recession now, just wait until Hilary is elected.

"You seem to think these contractors are trying to get rich off you, the fact is that we work hard to make a decent living and our overhead is way more than most people outside the construction industry would believe.
In my market you wouldn't get a price for a 34,000 gallon gunite pool for anywhere near what you are seeing even after excavation."

You know what funny, is when I work in the least affluent areas I hear people saying this crap.

People in the pool biz work for rich people. Poor people do not own pools. If you own a pool you cannot be considered poor.

With that being said, if everyone we work for is rich, why you think that your McMansion area would demand a surcharge?

It's funny that we work on project in excess of 40mil, and yet I hear people in 1mil houses complaining about how we are applying some rich surcharge. For our company we price the project to our clients expectations of the product. If they expect perfection they pay for it.

Racket, you are dead right. We work for the rich and often it is those on the lower edge of rich who believe we are trying to hit a home run off them.
I may get a lot of flack for this next statement but I've found I can categorize every client or potential client I have ever had into one of three groups.

1. Those who want everything for nothing, usually but not always you can figure these out quickly. Often try to negotiate price and are then the most difficult to please.

2. Those who are happy paying a fair price for a good product, my favorite kind of customer.

3. Those who want to pay more than their neighbour, for bragging rights. Rare but ok to deal with although they can be very picky too. But hey, they're willing to pay for it.

Cascade, I don't think you'll get any flack. I think you clarified racket's statement. From a consumer's standpoint, I agree with everything the both of you have said. My only 'iffy' area is how do you put a price on perfection/expectations when perfection/expectations is a relative term.

For example, Wine is one of the few commodities that you get what you pay for. I don't buy a $2 bottle of Mad Dog 20/20 to serve with a filet mignon and lobster. Likewise, I don't go to JC Penny and pay $200 for a suit and expect it to be a one-of-a-kind custom tailored suit to fit my body stature. Those are durable goods and I expect a $2 dollar bottle of wine to be just that. A pool is tangible in the sense that you can touch it, but perfection/expectation of perfection is in the eye of the beholder. When I hire a builder (pool, home, anyone providing a service) I expect them to build/provide a service to the best of their ability and to the highest quality. That is why I am willing to pay them for the service rendered based on their expertise.

Forgive my ignorance or naivete, but I guess what I am getting at, is how do you, as a builder, price out a build given the expectation of perfection? You can't quantify perfection, as you can the price of materials, labor, and OH.

Personally, I price the bones of the pool the same for any project. I won't cut corners on structure, plumbing or basic mechanics. If the customer wants a higher end product and wishes to pay for it the difference will be in finishing materials i.e. glass rather than porcelain tiles or specialty plaster rather than standard white or in mechanical upgrades, SWG, ozone, water features, automation, safety covers or the like.
I always strive to work with my clients to keep them satisfied and I always want to hand over a product I'm proud of, regardless of the contract price.
I also try not to work with too many #1s.
I just finished a job with one of them and it cost me a weeks sleep and I'm still not fully paid out.

cword,

Welcome to pool price reality land. I remember when we decided to put in a pool (before any research or bids) we set and unrealistic budget and hoped to complete our project under $75K.

Our pool (nothing real fancy) 18 x 34 rectangle (we added our own water features DYI) and the basic pool bid was $40K, but after we upgraded equipment and added a pool cover we were at $80K.

I found that living in the Pacific Northwest - labor costs are much higher. After the project was done I actually wondered how they really made money. I know they did, but when I add up the costs for each section of the job, then add in the equipment, their labor and employees I could see that the profit margin wasn't that large. And gosh I hope they make a profit, it is a business and I wan't them to be around to provide me future service.

After the sticker shock and adding all the additional site prep our project went over $200K. If I had to do it again - I would do it in a heart beat! It has been worth every penny - and we only got 2 weeks of swimming last year. This summer will be our first full season with a pool.

I think racket will agree I'm in the category of client #2.

:)

quote" our project went over $200K. If I had to do it again - I would do it in a heart beat! It has been worth every penny - and we only got 2 weeks of swimming last year. "quote

Missy, your my kind of buyer, LOL!!!!!

CWord, I can feel your pain.

I really don't think that your local builders care if you build your pool or not.
I think what their upset about is their inability to make markup off of your project. I become very frustrated when I see the subs selling their services directly to owner/builders. They always charge more than the actual value of their services command.
I run quite a few leads every year on owner/builder, after the fact calls. I've quoted many of these projects months prior to the new call.
It's typically cosmetic issues like brick and tile, patio deck, or plaster related. I'll always ask how much they paid for the project and usually no bid the proposed work.
The common denominator of these projects is that if they'd of upped an additional 10 to 15 percent over what they overpaid the subs they could have had a builder to hold accountable instead of paid in full subs who won't come back and handle it theirselves.
The tragedy of most subs today is that they only want to come back and get paid to redo a portion of the work they provided, they don't want to do it for free even though they charged the buyer more than I pay. That's okay because they do the same thing to builders too. They find it hard to pass on a new job to go perform a free comeback regardless of who they did the work for. The beauty of being a builder is that you can hold open invoices on new jobs to make them do so. This is a luxury that owner/builders do not enjoy.

I'm certain that with patience and legwork you'll be able to find a good builder who'll work with you. They're out there everywhere across our nation.

See ya,
Kelly

Well said Kelly.....On the other hand I quoted on a pool last year that needed a retaining wall badly. So my price was higher of course, and then the Homeowner went on to tell me that out of the four companies she had spoken with, only one said they did not need a wall..... Do you have a idea which one she went with? All of the builders on this site I think will agree that the foundation is the most important thing in any build and without the knowledge of a experienced Builder/Homeowner even though cosmetically the pool looks great over the years you start too spend more and more money repairing problems like soil erosion that leads to busted pipes or undermined concrete, Just because you did not know any better and because you went for the cheaper price or the sub took a shortcut. All homeowner's should do there research with builders and learn a apple from a orange and pulling last years permits is a great place to start and be able to see who is building where and how.....Ok back to the wall they saved about 6k on the wall going with the only builder that said they did not need one...She called last week and their liner had floated and wanted to know if we could fix it. Costs will be about 1k to reset liner and repair floor( If I can save the liner ) 9k to install retaining wall and french drain.....And Surprise their builder is nowhere to be found.

Cword,
I hope you the best in your pool! Go pull those permits and make a few more calls and you can find that builder that you are looking for....
P.S. Go Vols!!!!!

This is an interesting thread. The lawyer/paralegal analogy is good. As a builder, I don't like to see OB projects. But they have every right to build their own pool. They just shouldn't expect to use subs for the same price that PB's pay.
olemissrebel makes the comment "build/provide a service to the best of their ability" regarding PB's. I've seen bad projects from PB's and OB's because they have built to the best of THEIR abilities. That's part of the challenge of selecting PB's or subs for building any project including pools.
OB's should also keep in mind that they will be reponsible for their pool for as long as it exists, even after they have sold the property (at least in CA). When an OB takes out a permit they are assuming liability and the expertise that they will make that product safe and build it to current standards. The dollars an OB saves might not be worth a lawsuit 15 years down the road when they have moved away. Just food for thought.

Quote: "The common denominator of these projects is that if they'd of upped an additional 10 to 15 percent over what they overpaid the subs they could have had a builder to hold accountable instead of paid in full subs who won't come back and handle it theirselves."

Being a design professional with extensive experience in construction I would rate myself as a better candidate for owner-build than 95% of the people out there, but I never even considered doing our pool owner-build for specifically the reasons you state. The cost savings are not worth all the extra personal work and lost sleep. There are many things that can go wrong on any construction project, I would much rather have a quality PB that will deal with the problems and sub coordination so I can go about my life! PB's services have value and I for one am more than happy to pay for that added value. My personal opinion is that if more people were better informed about the construction process, there would be very, very few owner-built pools out there!

I hear these same comments in my profession (architecture). Clients seem to think we're trying to rip them off with our base fee, but then they expect us to wait on them hand and foot and cater to their every whim and change of heart. And of course they expect all those extra services for free. Clients aren't happy unless we're losing money on their jobs! We have one client (which will go unnamed) that beats us down on fees of a few thousand dollars, then spends millions on Super Bowl ads. Argh! So I can relate to what the PBs are going through.

Stepping down from soap box now, haha!

I had a wonderful owner builder experience. The rock guy and concrete guys came back immediately when I called them. And, the concrete guy came back to check out if the pool equipment delivery person did any damage to the concrete (they didn't) and it wasn't even the concrete guy's issue but he still came back to make sure everything was fine. There are very professional contractors out there - you just have to use reputable individuals that you get from referrals - not out of the phone book. Plus, with the economy the way it is, I think most of the contractors working right now are the best and are the ones getting the work since there is not enough to go around.

Again, my experience was great but I did a lot of research and relied on referrals from friends. And, I know the contractors that I worked with all want my pool in their portfolio and want me as a reference so it is in their interest to do a good quality job. Maybe it is because in CA there are many owner builders and many PBs that PBs can't call the shots so easily and bully everyone.

Lynn

The lawyer /paralegal comparison is good but slightly off base. Every employee has a fiduciary obligation to their employer. There's quite a big difference between a self employed subcontractor and a hand.
I completely agree with GolfGeek. Every homeowner has the right to act as the General Contractor on the construction of a pool at his home, just as equally as the sub has the right to bid and perform the work at hand. These are independent businessmen who enjoy the right to work for whom they choose to and charge the prices they choose to charge.
I can assure you guys of this, a good sub can replace a pool builder much easier than a pool builder can replace a good sub.
I keep most of our work inhouse but don't begrudge my guniter, concrete man, or plasterer for selling work directly around myself or my competitors. The truth of the matter is that I, truly, need them more than they need me.
This would not be true if it was one of my hands doing the same.

Lynn,
I think it's AWESOME that you had a wonderful experience as an owner/builder. Your supporting the industry with your purchase is much more important than whether Bob or Joe the pool builders got the job. Everytime a buyer makes a pool construction purchase the entire industry wins. There are a lot more people than just the pool builders and their hands who win once you decide and move forward on your construction process.
Without buyers like yourself and the many others who make pool related purchases,builders like myself and my competitors, the manufacturers, wholesalers, and the retailers who provide products and services within the industry would be in a heap of hurt.
We need you guys more than y'all need us too.
When a buyer contracts me to build their pool they're buying more than my ability to construct a pool. They're buying the knowledge and expertise that a lifetime of pool construction offers. Only the buyer him or herself can determine the extra value this adds above the price of farming out the work theirselves.
All I can offer is that you can just about bet that the longtime businessmen in our industry will only come out to see what you got and what you paid for it. You can expect a no bid from almost all long term builders, the newer companies will usually offer you a bid to handle whatever necessary.

See ya,
Kelly

We charge $100 per hour for service labor in many cases and still feel like we are giving it away.

"2. Those who are happy paying a fair price for a good product, my favorite kind of customer. "

My favorite would be those happy to overpay for a good product, but #2 is a great consolation prize =)..

Missy is a savvy client who knows the price on every item she deals with, but didn't rub it in our face every step of the way.

poolmissy - I looked at your page, and you, indeed, have a beautiful pool, but, really, $200,000??? Does that include your landscaping and pool house, etc? I sure hope so. I can certainly see why "racket" loves you so! Ha.

Our contract was probably ~30% of that.

There was a ton of earth work and retaining walls to be built.

The project had been going on for almost 2 months before we started.

I may be building a house soon, and I am expecting to pay $100-125 per sqft. This is just a little above builder spec.

Nothing is cheap in the emerald city.

Here's my reality:

Pool w/upgrades $60K
Auto Pool Cover 20K
Retaining wall 25K
(with 100 dump trucks of fill to level sloped lot)
Gas Line to street w new Meter 5K
Pool House 10K
Electrical $5K
Plumbing $2K
Gas line additions $3K
Solar 5K
Restore Neighbors yard $3K
New Driveway $7K
Pool Decking $5K
New Timbertec Deck $25K
Landscaping/fencing $5K
Fiberoptics $2K
shi* I can't remember $10k

Outdoor kitchen & firepit is next $20K

:)

Off the top of my head that's what I remember.

racket and poolmissy, thanks for the breakdowns. That makes much more sense.

racket, here on the Mississippi Gulf Coast, a trac spec home runs around $110-$125 ft2, while anything other than spec starts at about $140-$160 ft2. Our home that we built this past year cost us approx. $155 ft2. So, it's not cheap here, either, in "Katrina" land.

poolmissy, I feel about my house like you do about your pool. We had a wonderful, trusted builder who has a solid reputation and is eager to make sure his clients are happy with his work.

Enjoy your pool. For us, the search continues.

My price was me as the general =(

There's a house being built here in town, 34,000 square feet. Rumour is the construction budget is $2000/sq ft. Do the math, it's frightening.
I really want a shot at the pool.

cascade, who in the world would build such a "house?" You definitely need to keep us posted on this one. I don't blame you for wanting the pool contract - can you just imagine?!!! That would probably need to be the last pool you would ever build!

There a lot of houses in the 68-80 mil range in areas around Seattle. There is also a really famous one that was $110 mil

I'd tease you about the price being Nook money, but sadly it's almost the same these days.

"That would probably need to be the last pool you would ever build!"

Sadly it doesn't work that way. You have to have a lot of cash to work on projects like that, and the payment schedules always benefit the client, and the contractor. There are so many hours in paperwork, and meetings that you could easily be upside down if you didn't factor all of this excess in.

I built a huge koi pond at the house across the street. Rumour has it that house came in around $40mil. That guy is going to look like the poor cousin now, I guess.
These guys tend to be #3's, referring to my earlier post. The money can be good but as Racket suggested, they expect a disproportionate amount of your time (meaning my time as the company face) when you have 15 or 20 other jobs going on.
The value of our dollar may be nearly the same, but even with the strength of our dollar material and equipment prices haven't fallen much so I guess a pool here costs even more that a couple of years ago.

Well, what did you ever do??
I would have had a lawn sprinkler on the grass to run through!
(built a nice 16x32 pool in Florida 12 years ago for $8,000)

you were headed down the right road,just had the buggy ahead of the horse,most subs will work with you,if their pool builder clients are not aware of your pool,theres a 20 dollar ebook poolplans.net thats worth every penny on how to go about this process