We did not have an HOA, so no problems there. However, I've had experiences with HOAs as both homeowner and realtor in other locations/states.

I'm surprised that your HOA didn't require you to indicate your fence type as part of your pool approval process. Obviously, a permanent fence was not a requirement for any final inspections in your area. I'm assuming that your HOA wants you to have a privacy type fence and not a split rail fence, as a split rail would not deter ANY child!

I would also be quite concerned about the lack of a permanent fence at this stage! One of the first questions my homeowners' insurance company asked me when I contacted them about the pool addition was, "How is it fenced?"

Communities seem to decide on a standard way to build post and rail fences. I've lived in places where the horizontal rails had to be on the inside, so the "nice" smooth side of the fence always faced out. I've also lived in communities where the exact opposite was the case - the rails were on the outside with the "nice" side facing in towards the home. In the latter case (no pun intended), it can make a ladder for kids, or others, to climb over.

One way to make a post and rail fence less of a ladder is to put the slats (vertical boards) on BOTH sides of the rails, so that the fence looks smooth on both sides. Of course, it's more expensive to construct because you're using 2x the number of vertical boards, but it does serve to get rid of the potential ladder (and it looks great from both sides). Doing a web search for fence styles also shows a few other (probably more expensive) styles that look to be less amenable to climbing.

Beware of the 2-sided fences that alternates placing the vertical boards on one side of the horizontal rail and then the other. The net result is a fence that looks the same on both sides but it has about a 6" space between slats on each side! These fences use minimal extra wood compared to a 1-sided fence, but they have excellent footholds for little climbers!

Because you are concerned about small children in your area, you may want to consider gate locks and/or alarms as well as alarms that activate when someone or something falls into the pool.

I agree - you MUST put up a fence that is safe. Is there a city code that will cause your HOA to think again on this?

If they won't you must fight this. Tell them you wouldn't want to hold the HOA liable if someone gets hurt since that is the only fence they allow.

What do other homes with pools in your neighborhood have?

Post and rail fence, is the HOA in the country?

What about your homeowners insurance Co, what do they want as a minimum?

Wow, I used to be on the covenants committee in our prior neighborhood....we preferred black aluminum fences around pools but our covenants allowed a privacy fence & split rail. This was an upscale neighborhood and several neighbors installed what we called split rail (with chicken wire).... Oh the complaints we would get....it looked liked it belonged on a farm to contain animals. We had one really upset neighbor, when the next door neighbor wanted one of those split rail with chicken wire around his $90,000 pool. To make a long story short, lawyers got involved and the pool owner won (pool owner had LOTS of $$$$). My suggestion is to go back to the HOA with your plan to install the fence you want and provide extra landscaping to conceal the fence. I know our HOA liked when homeowners added extra substantial landscaping to block the views. Hope it helps:) Where do you live???

Did your township give your pool a final approval without a fence? Mine would not sign off until a BOCA code fence was in place. I cannot see how an HOA can rule against a fence that is required under code in most states for pool enclosures.

Ours is the only pool in the development so far.(We do live kind of out in the country). The covenants do not specify anything on pools. They only say that "no above ground pools are permitted". We didn't even have to submit a request for approval on our in ground pool since the covenants don't say anything about this type.
We didn't get an explanation of why our fence request was denied. The covenants do say that all fences shall be of the post and rail type.
My DH is arguing that we don't need approval for a pool fence since we didn't even need to get approval for an in ground pool.
I don't know what the final answer will be, but I do know that we need a fence of some kind ASAP. We will be having a HOA meeting in April and we submitted our question as to why the fence we chose (vertical) was denied.

I'm an architect and have served on an architectural review committee for an HOA. Usually if you just have a face-to-face meeting with the committee you can get this easily resolved. All you need to do is explain that the style of fence they allow is unsuitable as safety protection around a pool. HOAs are usually quite sensitive to safety issues and will no doubt see the problem. They'll probably have to amend the covenants.

You definitely do not want to just proceed with a fence design that has been rejected, you could find yourself in a legal battle. You've heard the phrase "It's better to ask forgiveness than ask permission" (IE, proceed with the work and hope they're OK with it)? That definitely does not apply to HOAs!

We aren't allowed any face to face meetings in our development unless the board calls them. They have sent out letters stating they only want to be contacted by mail, no phone, no email and no approaching them in their yards. Nice huh?
Anyway - we did write a letter and in that we stated that we felt very uneasy about a post and rail fence, and would hate the thought of something happening. That didn't seem to bother them. I think our only hope is to bring it up at our meeting next month. We have not had a meeting for 4 years and still have no bylaws. It's very frustrating.

I still say you suggest you put a safer black aluminum fence and you will plant a row of plant material to block the view....everyone wins! You get the right fence, privacy and the neighborhood wont see it or the pool.

I can completely sympathize with them not wanting people just walking up in their yards to discuss projects, I've been there and it's tough to get anything done in your yard when a "talker" wants to just stop by because they see you doing yard work and tell you about all the zillion things they want to do to their house! But if your HOA doesn't have an appeal process then they need one. When you say there are no bylaws, does this mean you have no written covenants either? If so, there is no criteria for enforcement. If anyone ever takes them to court, they'll have no defense.

I'm not sure where you live, but most areas have local, county and/ or state codes that dictate a minimum level of protection around pools. I suggest you contact a local professional (pool contractor, architect, etc.) and have them do some code research for you, then relay your findings in writing to the HOA. If that fails then the next letter will have to be written be a lawyer unfortunately. Good luck!

I did a quick code search on this. Most cities have adopted the Uniform Building Code (UBC) in recent years. There used to be a few different major codes, but thankfully for those of us that have to deal with this the UBC has pretty much become the standard. Here is the UBC passage dealing with pool barriers:

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421.1 Outdoor Swimming Pool. An outdoor swimming pool shall be provided with a barrier that shall be installed, inspected and approved prior to plastering or filling with water. The barrier shall comply with the following:

1. The top of the barrier shall be at least 60 inches (1524 mm) above grade measured on the side of the barrier that faces away from the swimming pool. The maximum vertical clearance between grade and the bottom of the barrier shall be 2 inches (51 mm) measured on the side of the barrier that faces away from the swimming pool. The maximum vertical clearance at the bottom of the barrier may be increased to 4 inches (102 mm) when grade is a solid surface such as a concrete deck, or when the barrier is mounted on the top of the aboveground pool structure. When barriers have horizontal members spaced less than 45 inches (1143 mm) apart, the horizontal members shall be placed on the poolside of the barrier. Any decorative design work on the side away from the swimming pool, such as protrusions, indentations or cutouts, which render the barrier easily climbable, is prohibited.

2. Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 1 3/4-inch-diameter (44.5 mm) sphere.

======================

It's still advisable to consult a local professional though as there may be more restrictive local requirements. You might also be able to get some ammo from your insurance company, they probably require a barrier similar to that listed above.

Local laws will override any homeowners association convenant. Just check with your local building inspector. I have a four foot (48") fence on one part of my yard, between the house and detached garage. The building inspector kept failing the gate because the latch wasn't at 60". I thought I was going to have to replace the whole fence until I found out the latch just had to be adjusted so that a child couldn't unlatch it from the outside, but an adult could reach over and unlatch it. So, the latch had to be 12" (60" - 48") below the edge of the top of the fence on the inside and no lever on the outside.

The funny thing is that we think they (HOA Board) are just doing this to mess with us. We plan to make sure we get our concerns on the record at the HOA meeting next week. I know several of our neighbors will be very concerned as well because they have small children. I will make sure to post an update. It seems so crazy to have to fight for a safe fence around your pool....

Ugh -- this is why I can't stand HOA's. I bet they are way more interested in how your fence will look then what kind of security it provides.

What state are you in? I'll check to see if I can find out anything about your state codes.

We are in PA. We sent them pics of vinyl and iron fences (several of each) and asked them to let us know which they would prefer. The only response we got was "your request for a fence was denied."
We have covenants that were filed with the township (ones that the builder borrowed from another development). We don't have any bylaws - haven't been written in the 5 years the development has existed.
The only mention of pools in the covenants states " no above ground pools are permitted."
Fences are addressed in the covenants. It states that they must be in the rear of the property and be of a natural material, split rail and post. May use mesh wire on the outside of the fence.
My husband is going to argue the fence issue at our HOA meeting Wednesday night. He thinks since inground pools were not covered in the covenants the fence surrounding the inground pool shouldn't be either.
I don't know what the final answer will be. I can tell you that I'm sick that we spent $50,000+ on an inground pool and may have to put a post and rail fence around it. How I wish I knew more about HOA's when we bought this house. Just goes to show that you should look before you leap. We couldn't even sell now if we wanted to - not in this market.

PA has their state codes posted online here:

http://www.pacode.com/index.html

Here is the applicable passage I could find:

===================
§ 403.26. Swimming pools.
(a) A swimming pool, hot tub and spa which is accessory to a one- or two-family dwelling shall comply with all of the following:

(1) Chapter 41 of the ÂÂInternational Residential Code.ÂÂ

(2) Appendix G of the ÂÂInternational Residential Code.ÂÂ
===================

I looked up chapter 41 of the IRC, it deals mainly with electrical and equipment issues. Now Appendix G on the other hand, this is where your neighborhood's post and rail fence gets shot down. Appendix G is a couple of pages long, if you want me to fax it to you send me your fax number. In a nutshell, the fence has to be at least 48" high, openings in fence cannot allow passage of a 4" sphere, cannot have any protrusions that can be climbed, must have a self-closing/ self-latching gate, etc.

As luck would have it Appendix G is posted online, click link below for a PDF of it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Appendix G PDF file

tresw - Thank you so much for taking the time to post that info and the link for me. I'm going to print it out right now. We're almost at the point of getting a lawyer. It's sad that it has to be that way. We all know there are no winners against a HOA. It's only the homeowners that pay.
Do you think the PA codes over ride HOA covenants?

You're welcome!! Government codes do override HOA covenants. Good HOAs will revise their covenants when conflicting info is brought to their attention. Bad HOAs will bury their heads in the sand until lawyers are brought in. Unfortunately I think you've got a bad HOA on your hands based on your comments. I would suggest writing them a letter explaining that by law you must have a fence that meets the minimum requirements of the PA state codes. Include the PA code passages from above that reference Appendix G and attach Appendix G to the letter. Ask them what type of fencing is allowable to the HOA that meets all those requirements and see what they say. If they don't cooperate then you'll probably have to consult a lawyer. Hopefully a lawyer can craft a letter that will open the HOA's eyes without any legal action being needed. Good luck!

I think that's why they want us to put in the post and rail. It looks like (from the PA code) if you use mesh wire on the outside of the post and rail it satisfies code. Who the heck wants a post and rail fence with mesh chicken wire - on the outside of the fence around a beautiful in ground pool?
We don't want an elaborate vertical fence, just a simple vinyl or aluminum one. They also won't entertain the idea of us planting large trees/landscaping to hide the fence and the pool. (CRAZY!!)

Don't forget to mention through the lawyer against the HOA that all damages including legal fees occured against HOA will be sought from them.

abbysmom,

I agree with your suspicion that the HOA is just messin' wit' you.

What I would suggest is to find a contractor that will do the fence that you want which complies with the govt. code, arrange for installation, and have an atty draft a letter to the HOA (AND copy the state govt dept which oversees this) stating that "In compliance with state code blah blah blah, my client will be erecting a 5' tall (or whatever) pool fence."

I also agree with the other poster who said to include in there that the HOA would be liable for legal fees and damages in the event you are found to be in the right.

A $150-200 attorney-generated strongly-worded letter will hopefully make them back down without the need for litigation.

What a bunch of morons. Perfect example of "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Your situation is exactly why we refuse to ever live in a subdivision.

Best of luck to you, and keep us posted.

Well we had our HOA meeting - the first one in 3 years. We did get a chance to discuss our fence, and don't know any more now than we did before the meeting. The Pres. and VP kept shooting it down saying the covenants call for post and rail fencing. We argued that since the covenants do not cover in ground pools the post and rail fence mentioned in the covenants was obviously referring to border fencing.
We talked all about PA code, township code, pool builder, and our insurance company's strong suggestion of us not using a post and rail fence. They still didn't get it. They said they would take it to their lawyer since we kept arguing about the way the covenants reads on post and rail fencing.
We are hopeful that the lawyer will agree with us, but we won't hold our breath. I am pretty sure we will have to put out the expense to get our own lawyer, and if we lose we pay our cost + the HOA's attorney fees.... CRAZY!

Did they seem concerned at all about the fact that if there were to be an accident, that THEY could be held liable?

Seriously, how stupid and narrow-minded ARE these people?

"Did they seem concerned at all about the fact that if there were to be an accident, that THEY could be held liable?

Seriously, how stupid and narrow-minded ARE these people?"

They showed no concern at all. All they could talk about was the covenants, the covenants. (The covenants that they are breaking two of right now, but that wasn't an issue when it was brought up. Go figure)