I don't know why they posted next to each other. So the first pic is taken in the living room and dinning room. Where the studs are we are putting a wall in with 48 inch french doors that will lead to the kitchenette. The second picture is of the small small kitchen with the doorway from the kitchen that leads to the bathroom( the other guttted room to the right).
Where the old french doors are leaning against the wall is where I am putting a fridge and a small counter to the right of the fridge on the kitchenette side. I was thinking of putting the fridge there to allow more room in the tiny tiny kitchen!
On the wall where the french doors are going which is the dinning room on this side we are thinking of putting two built in bookshelves on either side of the french doors (that I got of craigslist they once went on either side of a fireplace) with sconce lighting above. The french doors in the pic are not the ones being used!!! The ones we are using are brand new poplar wood.
That huge mirror was purchased for there, in the dinning room, but I am pretty sure it will now go in the foyer.
And finally if you look at the first picture into the
bedroom/study you will see the framing of a closet that is accessed from the bathroom hallway. So when we walk in the back door from the garage we can go to that closet for coats boots and backpacks.
There are two walkways one from the dinning room to the kitchennete through french doors and another walkway from the dinning room to the bathroom and kitchen.

I have wanted to post pics for so long on this site to get opinions but had to sit down and figure out how. This house has been a lemon and has had way more problems than we anticipated!!!!!
I can not afford and interior designer so I thought maybe people on this site can give advice on our plan!!!!

Thanks Amy

Maybe I am going into too much detail for the help your requesting. Just ignore if that is the case!
One tool I use are room planners. You can find them on most furniture store websites and they're free. The one I prefer is Stoney Creek Furniture. I am nowhere near Canada or ever shopped at Stoney Creek but it does allow you to plan larger rooms than most other websites I have found. There is also a ton of home design software out there that is inexpensive but the room planners are so much simpler for a quick floor plan. You can add walls, doors, windows, appliances etc.
If you want to send room dimensions or your floor plan including door/window locations, or anything (outlets, vents etc) that would hinder placement of furniture/appliances I would be happy to help.

Here is a link that might be useful: Stoney Creek

deedee, Thanks for the suggestion. No you are not going into too much detail. My husband is gone for the weekend and I have to have this figured out by next week. So if I have to use the whole weekend that's fine.
I looked at Stoney Creek site and It looks great but how can you combine rooms for a full floor plan? So many of the rooms appearance is determaned by the other room. And there is no wall between my living foom or dinning room. Does this make sence? I am hoping that is I finish floor plans on a site like Stony Creek I can post them here.
If Stony Creek does not do a whole floor plan is there a program that is just as easy as there's is that I can use, even if I have to buy it. My husband and I purchased a program off the internet about a year ago but could not navigate it so we quickly canceled it. Thanks so much Amy

I just went to the planner to dbl check. You can do a space up to 99' x 99'. Choose the NEW then DESIGN YOUR OWN tab then select the LIVING ROOM as your template. Enter the dimensions of the total of all rooms you want to plan. So if the rooms you are posting about are all on your first level, enter the dimensions of the whole level. Then go to the drop down above the furniture icons and choose STRUCTURAL and add your walls. Then in STRUCTURAL add windows and doors to the walls. Then start on the furniture and appliances. You can change the size of anything you place in your plan by selecting the blue "i" on the item.
Hope that helps! I'll check back this afternoon if you have any other questions.

Amy,

If you could post a sketch on graph paper with dimensions, I think it would be easier to give advice.

Good luck with your project!

Yes do like pps7 suggested. Get some paper where each square represents a sq ft and draw it out. You can once you've drawn it just take a close up picture of it and post if you can't figure out how to scan it in.

It is hard to understand the spatial relationship from just the pictures. Some dimensions might help too.

Here is my drawing. Not very good sorry. Lyfia good idea.

I finished the stoney creek program but have no way of posting it directly to garden web. Any ideas or do I just take another picture??

Okay, much better! What do you envision for this space? Do you have a wishlist? If it were my house, I would put the kitchen where it say "kitchenette" and keep this space open to the dining/living room. I would do an L shaped kitchen with an island. In the space that says "kitchen", I would put a built in banquette and if there is a room a wall of pantry cabinets with a coffee station or butler's pantry.

It looks like a great space.

I would just print and take a pic like you did with your floor plan. You can email the plan to people you know also but that's up to you. Hope the program didn't drive you crazy! After I saw the other posts about a quick sketch I thought to myself duh! I was making it way to hard. Like pps said, a wish list would be helpful too.

What I want.... I have four kids and we host all the time through church; young people for dinner to people spending the night for church conferences in Chicago. We have gone back and forth about closing up that wall that the french doors are on to leaving it open. I think french doors for a few reasons. One the kitchenette or eating area/homework/mess can be shut off from the view of the living room dinning room. Yet I can still open to the kitchenette table when we have so many that we want the kids at at seperate table. Family gatherings are big, husband from a large family.
We are struggling with the dinning room table right next to the kitchenette table that it seems repedetive in function. But I do not want to eat in the dinning room with my family and I do not want to loose a formal dinning room. We are thinking of built in benches and table to at liest give a different look.
If I put the kitchen in the kitchenette area you could see the kitchen and all it's mess when you are in the living room especially if the wall is open. Also on the one kitchenette wall I can't put any window because there are stairs for the porch that block any view. I want windows where I cook.
Many people tell us to keep the wall open and then I ask how funny it would look to see two tables all the time and then they agree and don't know what to say or they say get one big table and run from the dinning room area to the kitchenette area.
Does any one agree to having the living room and dinning room seperate from the mess of the kitchen and kitchenette. I think that is my mental hang up. My husband and I realy think they should be two seperate areas but everybody and their cat think everything should be all open. I guess that is the issue that I deal with!!!!!

I'll send a quick plan idea sometime today or tonight. Just wanted you to know I didn't forget you! Nice job on the floor planner!

Thank you deedee very much for your time it is realy appreciated!!!! Amy

Hi Amy,

Here is a rough plan. I didn't place windows, doors etc.
Just something to think about...your floor plan looks fine to me and if that works for you and your family that is what you need to do.
I flipped a few things around to give you food for thought. Not sure how far you are with framing the walls for the french doors...
I thought you could do a counter at bar height (42") between the dinette area and you living/dining. This would provide you extra seating for the bigger kids and adults. When you are seated in the living/dining area you would not be able to see much of your work area in the kitchen. I laid it out as a wall, but imagine it opened up as a pass through. (see link) This would allow you to add cabinets above the counter in the dinette area for extra storage and give you storage in the dining room.
I thought about the french doors installed as the study doors. When you have your gatherings that room could be opened. You would need some sort of wt for privacy if guests stay there though.
Think lemonade not lemons!

kitchen pass through

pass through

• Posted by: deedee99 (My Page) on Sat, Apr 24, 10 at 19:29

Not sure what I did with the pass through link!

Here is a link that might be useful:

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: lyfia (My Page) on Sat, Apr 24, 10 at 22:10

If you switch the kitchenette and kitchen you'd be able to hide the kitchenette and it's mess. Then you do a bar area to the dining room so the mess in the kitchen is hidden, but when you are in the kitchen you're able to see out and be part of entertaining still.

It is all in how you organize things there too if you can use the window that is there. If you put a sink in the corner then you get the existing window in the kitchenette and you can look out at people in dining/living. I'd put the stove on the back wall and you could do a nice hood/stagger cabinets etc. to have it look nice on that wall with no window.

My old house had the kitchen, dining, living all in a line. I'll show you what I had in my last house to separate the kitchen from the dining to hide the mess.

From Dining side. Note that these are both standing. Once you sat down you couldn't really see into the kitchen at all.

{{gwi:1663206}}

{{gwi:1663208}}

From kitchen side:
{{gwi:1663210}}

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: both (aboth@sbcglobal.net) on Sat, Apr 24, 10 at 22:34

I can't switch the kitchen and kitchenette due to plumbing. I don't have a kitchen sewer line on that side of the house and if one was put in we would have to cut the cement in the bacement and lay it under the floor so that it does not pass the walkway.

I like pass throughs!!! We wanted to put one between the kitchen and kitchenette but we do not have the space due to the fridge. I do not want to pu the fridge in the kitchen due to the lack of counter space. And by putting the fridge and a 24 inch cabinet counter we would help "make the kitchen look bigger".
I have thought of using the french doors on the side room and using the two bookshelves in that room and giving it more of a library look.

Would it be funny to put a pass through from a kitchenette to a dinning room instead of the kitchen to the dinning room???

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: threedgrad (My Page) on Sun, Apr 25, 10 at 12:13

I would leave the wall open between kitchen and dining/living rooms. That closet next to bath seems to be in an odd place also. What would be in the closet? A tall utility cabinet in the kitchen could be used for brooms, vacuums, etc. A coat closet would be better near the front door. I would make the den and bath bigger by relocating that closet. Plus do not line up the bathroom door with the opening to the dining room. Have a small hall lead to bath from kitchen. Plus do you need a tub in that bath? Maybe a very nice powder room would be best. I would rather see French doors open to den from living/dining rooms. Plus no kitchenette. Make kitchen large - go all the way across and use dining room as eating area. You can have an island between large open kitchen and dining area where you can have casual meals. Can you picture what I am describing?

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: lyfia (My Page) on Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 9:35

OK how about just closing the entry area to the kitchen where it is now (by the bath) and make a much larger opening where the french doors are, but only make the opening larger toward the the kitchen side. This way it seems more open, but you still have a private nook on the left.

This way you could put cabinets and a counter all the way over to that opening and get a much larger kitchen, with more counter space.

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: both (aboth@sbcglobal.net) on Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 11:14

I have been really giving this soooo much thought. Every idea someone gives us has been thought out and mapped out!!
The lighter bigger beam in the picture is where the natural flow of the house walkway should be. Two feet to the right of that beem is an electrical line, gas line and condensation line all from the second floor furnace. There was no heat on the second and third floor; we added a second furnace and all the ductwork.
We have been told that we should not close up the small entrance on kitchen side and only leave the entrance on the left of the beam. Even if we left everything from that beam and to the left open and closed up the small entrance it is "not correct" to walk through middle of the dinning room to get to the other room. We have debated that one many many times as it would give a much bigger kitchen. We also debated closing the whole dinning room wall and only keeping the small entrance but then the house is not open enough for my liking. That is why we came up with the french door idea.
My husband and I talked about the pass through and flipping the kitchen. We are also talking about moving the electric, gas and condensation line and putting the entrance to the right of the beam. But then closing off the whole dinning room wall. ( do not think I want to close off that wall all the way). The contractor comes tomorrow for something else and I am going to have him see if we can get sink plumbing in the kitchenette side. The idea of the stove on the windowless wall sound soooo beautiful.

I wanted you guys to know how much I am appreciating all your ideas, you have no idea!!!! I know this post is long and full of a lot of facts about my house not yours- thank you for all the time you have been putting into this with me!!!! (for free :) )

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: deedee99 (My Page) on Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 11:20

:)
Let us know what you decide and send pics when you are done!

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: lyfia (My Page) on Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 12:15

Just a sketch and not to scale.

I'm not sure why you can't close the wall to the bath entrance if you did this. It is a few more steps to the bathroom. It opens up the back some more to the front of the house, but still allows some privacy of the view and the kitchen gets more counter space.

You are not walking through the middle of the dining room, but rather in the same place you'd be walking right now.

It creates sort of a natural hallway to all rooms along with a path to the back door and the kitchen/breakfast area aren't so closed off.

{{gwi:1663211}}

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: both (aboth@sbcglobal.net) on Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 15:45

I drew to scale the two ideas the first pic is leaving both walkways the second is closing one walkway. What do you think?

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: monablair (My Page) on Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 16:35

I like your proposed plan and don't think seeing 2 tables in close proximity is a problem. We have this in our home and it works fine. I just think you need 2 different table shapes. Maybe a rectangle in the DR and a round or oval in the kitchen eating area.

I would close off the hall entry into the bathroom and access it from the study. I'd eliminate that hall closet and line up the study wall UNLESS you left a shallow niche in the study for a built in bookcase or shelving.

Personally, I think one entry into the kitchen/kitchenette area would suffice. I would just have 6' wide French doors that would be placed to line up with the edge of the exterior door. This would give you great wall space for your kitchen counters and cabinets.

If you need storage space, have you considered using the space under your stairs for storage?

Just a few questions.... Is there a reason you've enclosed the stairs? It seems to make the foyer so dark and confining.

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: both (aboth@sbcglobal.net) on Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 17:33

The stairs and foyer are not in any of the pictures. A huge part of the stairs is open. Under the stairs are the bacement stairs. Here is a pictureof the foyer taken from the living room. The front door is to the right.

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: lyfia (My Page) on Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 17:48

In the 1st plan of the two you posted you don't really have enough room for anybody to be walking through the french doors to the back when people are seated at the table. The right end of the table end up being in the path no matter what plan, but I'd try to minimize having to walk around the table to get anywhere. This means people still have to walk through the bath area to get to the back.

I prefer the 2nd, because of the flow to the rooms andmaximizing the space in both breakfast and kitchen area. Though I'd want to remove the two feet at the edge of the fridge and straighten up the opening some to minimize walking around the table. 8ft on the other side of the fridge would give you plenty of counterspace. If you want a little space on the other side of the fridge even moving it to 6.5 feet and adding 18" on the side of the fridge would leave you with plenty of counter space.

BTW I think if you want a half wall between the breakfast area and the dining room and need more storage you could do 12" deep cabinets as the half wall and flank the opening with some columns for support. This half wall could also serve as a buffet. Let me see if I can find some pics to illustrate what I mean

pics

• Posted by: lyfia (My Page) on Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 17:59

Here is a pic to illustrate sort of what I mean, except you'd do it on one side only if you did option 2 and you don't have to do glass to see through.

{{gwi:1663220}}

Here is one that shows two tables in a row beyond the columns.
{{gwi:1663222}}

RE: Pics of first floor -- could use some layout advice.

• Posted by: both (aboth@sbcglobal.net) on Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 20:06

Lyfia, What do you mean by straitening up the opening? Do you mean shifting the opening to the right? I cant move the opening over. There is a support beam that is 10.9 feet off the left exterior wall. That is what is causing all the problem. Look in the original pics the light colored huge beam has to stay. Did you mean something else when you said straiten up the opening?

I think if we do french doors they are going to have to open to the kitchenette side. The reason for the french doors is to have the option of combining the two rooms when we are having such a huge group that the kids can't fit in the dining room. Also in my other house we had the exact same living room dining room except this one is one foot wider. When we moved into the house there were stairs going to the attic from the kitchen and we moved the entrance to the stairs from the kitchen to the dining room to give more room in the kitchen. Well when we did this it made the dining room look sooo much bigger and better. I was sure in this house that we wanted to get rid of the wall all together and it would look so great. Well the day we knocked out that wall I was so disappointed. So I thought french doors would give the illusion of a bigger space yet they would usually stay closed. Does this make sence?

Here is our previous living room dining room. Yes we left this house for this lemon!! A long story!!!! and we rent this place. So here goes our attempts to make lemonade!

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Here is a link that might be useful:

Not sure what I did with the pass through link!

If you switch the kitchenette and kitchen you'd be able to hide the kitchenette and it's mess. Then you do a bar area to the dining room so the mess in the kitchen is hidden, but when you are in the kitchen you're able to see out and be part of entertaining still.

It is all in how you organize things there too if you can use the window that is there. If you put a sink in the corner then you get the existing window in the kitchenette and you can look out at people in dining/living. I'd put the stove on the back wall and you could do a nice hood/stagger cabinets etc. to have it look nice on that wall with no window.

My old house had the kitchen, dining, living all in a line. I'll show you what I had in my last house to separate the kitchen from the dining to hide the mess.

From Dining side. Note that these are both standing. Once you sat down you couldn't really see into the kitchen at all.

{{gwi:1663206}}

{{gwi:1663208}}

From kitchen side:
{{gwi:1663210}}

I can't switch the kitchen and kitchenette due to plumbing. I don't have a kitchen sewer line on that side of the house and if one was put in we would have to cut the cement in the bacement and lay it under the floor so that it does not pass the walkway.

I like pass throughs!!! We wanted to put one between the kitchen and kitchenette but we do not have the space due to the fridge. I do not want to pu the fridge in the kitchen due to the lack of counter space. And by putting the fridge and a 24 inch cabinet counter we would help "make the kitchen look bigger".
I have thought of using the french doors on the side room and using the two bookshelves in that room and giving it more of a library look.

Would it be funny to put a pass through from a kitchenette to a dinning room instead of the kitchen to the dinning room???

I would leave the wall open between kitchen and dining/living rooms. That closet next to bath seems to be in an odd place also. What would be in the closet? A tall utility cabinet in the kitchen could be used for brooms, vacuums, etc. A coat closet would be better near the front door. I would make the den and bath bigger by relocating that closet. Plus do not line up the bathroom door with the opening to the dining room. Have a small hall lead to bath from kitchen. Plus do you need a tub in that bath? Maybe a very nice powder room would be best. I would rather see French doors open to den from living/dining rooms. Plus no kitchenette. Make kitchen large - go all the way across and use dining room as eating area. You can have an island between large open kitchen and dining area where you can have casual meals. Can you picture what I am describing?

OK how about just closing the entry area to the kitchen where it is now (by the bath) and make a much larger opening where the french doors are, but only make the opening larger toward the the kitchen side. This way it seems more open, but you still have a private nook on the left.

This way you could put cabinets and a counter all the way over to that opening and get a much larger kitchen, with more counter space.

I have been really giving this soooo much thought. Every idea someone gives us has been thought out and mapped out!!
The lighter bigger beam in the picture is where the natural flow of the house walkway should be. Two feet to the right of that beem is an electrical line, gas line and condensation line all from the second floor furnace. There was no heat on the second and third floor; we added a second furnace and all the ductwork.
We have been told that we should not close up the small entrance on kitchen side and only leave the entrance on the left of the beam. Even if we left everything from that beam and to the left open and closed up the small entrance it is "not correct" to walk through middle of the dinning room to get to the other room. We have debated that one many many times as it would give a much bigger kitchen. We also debated closing the whole dinning room wall and only keeping the small entrance but then the house is not open enough for my liking. That is why we came up with the french door idea.
My husband and I talked about the pass through and flipping the kitchen. We are also talking about moving the electric, gas and condensation line and putting the entrance to the right of the beam. But then closing off the whole dinning room wall. ( do not think I want to close off that wall all the way). The contractor comes tomorrow for something else and I am going to have him see if we can get sink plumbing in the kitchenette side. The idea of the stove on the windowless wall sound soooo beautiful.

I wanted you guys to know how much I am appreciating all your ideas, you have no idea!!!! I know this post is long and full of a lot of facts about my house not yours- thank you for all the time you have been putting into this with me!!!! (for free :) )

:)
Let us know what you decide and send pics when you are done!

Just a sketch and not to scale.

I'm not sure why you can't close the wall to the bath entrance if you did this. It is a few more steps to the bathroom. It opens up the back some more to the front of the house, but still allows some privacy of the view and the kitchen gets more counter space.

You are not walking through the middle of the dining room, but rather in the same place you'd be walking right now.

It creates sort of a natural hallway to all rooms along with a path to the back door and the kitchen/breakfast area aren't so closed off.

{{gwi:1663211}}

I drew to scale the two ideas the first pic is leaving both walkways the second is closing one walkway. What do you think?

I like your proposed plan and don't think seeing 2 tables in close proximity is a problem. We have this in our home and it works fine. I just think you need 2 different table shapes. Maybe a rectangle in the DR and a round or oval in the kitchen eating area.

I would close off the hall entry into the bathroom and access it from the study. I'd eliminate that hall closet and line up the study wall UNLESS you left a shallow niche in the study for a built in bookcase or shelving.

Personally, I think one entry into the kitchen/kitchenette area would suffice. I would just have 6' wide French doors that would be placed to line up with the edge of the exterior door. This would give you great wall space for your kitchen counters and cabinets.

If you need storage space, have you considered using the space under your stairs for storage?

Just a few questions.... Is there a reason you've enclosed the stairs? It seems to make the foyer so dark and confining.

The stairs and foyer are not in any of the pictures. A huge part of the stairs is open. Under the stairs are the bacement stairs. Here is a pictureof the foyer taken from the living room. The front door is to the right.

In the 1st plan of the two you posted you don't really have enough room for anybody to be walking through the french doors to the back when people are seated at the table. The right end of the table end up being in the path no matter what plan, but I'd try to minimize having to walk around the table to get anywhere. This means people still have to walk through the bath area to get to the back.

I prefer the 2nd, because of the flow to the rooms andmaximizing the space in both breakfast and kitchen area. Though I'd want to remove the two feet at the edge of the fridge and straighten up the opening some to minimize walking around the table. 8ft on the other side of the fridge would give you plenty of counterspace. If you want a little space on the other side of the fridge even moving it to 6.5 feet and adding 18" on the side of the fridge would leave you with plenty of counter space.

BTW I think if you want a half wall between the breakfast area and the dining room and need more storage you could do 12" deep cabinets as the half wall and flank the opening with some columns for support. This half wall could also serve as a buffet. Let me see if I can find some pics to illustrate what I mean

Here is a pic to illustrate sort of what I mean, except you'd do it on one side only if you did option 2 and you don't have to do glass to see through.

{{gwi:1663220}}

Here is one that shows two tables in a row beyond the columns.
{{gwi:1663222}}

Lyfia, What do you mean by straitening up the opening? Do you mean shifting the opening to the right? I cant move the opening over. There is a support beam that is 10.9 feet off the left exterior wall. That is what is causing all the problem. Look in the original pics the light colored huge beam has to stay. Did you mean something else when you said straiten up the opening?

I think if we do french doors they are going to have to open to the kitchenette side. The reason for the french doors is to have the option of combining the two rooms when we are having such a huge group that the kids can't fit in the dining room. Also in my other house we had the exact same living room dining room except this one is one foot wider. When we moved into the house there were stairs going to the attic from the kitchen and we moved the entrance to the stairs from the kitchen to the dining room to give more room in the kitchen. Well when we did this it made the dining room look sooo much bigger and better. I was sure in this house that we wanted to get rid of the wall all together and it would look so great. Well the day we knocked out that wall I was so disappointed. So I thought french doors would give the illusion of a bigger space yet they would usually stay closed. Does this make sence?

Here is our previous living room dining room. Yes we left this house for this lemon!! A long story!!!! and we rent this place. So here goes our attempts to make lemonade!