1) Do you have an architectural and landscaping plan?
1-B) Engineering plans?

2) Where are you, geographically?

3) We certainly wish you good luck. Lots of good and experienced peeps hang out here.

Scott

poolguynj, I do have the plans and engineering already done. I am in the process of getting bids and it is taking longer than I anticipated. I am in Queen Creek, Arizona (Phoenix area).

Most people on here seem extremely helpful and I look foward to their input once I post the pics and specs of my pool.

I spoke to 4 companies about the build..I ended up contracting portions of my build out rather than relying on it all for one company...here are my tips.

Decide what is most important for you...aesthetics, design, quality, functionality, maintenance, short time build, cost...put them in order and share that with the companies. Let them speak to those issues and see if their strengths in your top three match their focus.

For me it was cost, quality, and functionality...I went with the pool builder who could build what I needed that would be durable and serve our purpose....(high traffic summer days)

HTH!
Tara

Thanks for the input!

After talking with a few pool companies I have decided to build my own pool; or shall I say be the GC. I have received all of the bids and will end up saving 31% and since I do not work I have alot of time and brain power to get this done.

My first concern is that we live on a retention lot and we have expansive soil in Queen Creek. I am going to have the pool raised 12" and have received different opinions on whether I should have a retaining wall around the raised 12" area or if I should just backfill with compacted dirt.

Any imput would be appreciated.

Not to sound flippant, but the only input/opinion that matters is such a question is that of the engineer.

With that kind of elevation/site issues, I would suggest using a regular pool builder. I think you'll spend more money in the long run trying to fix whatever mistakes you make in trying to work around the expansive soil.

Maybe spend some more time researching. We have huge drainage issues and glad we chose a builder instead of doing it ourselves.

Who knows, it may turn out great. Look forward to the progress either way. You'll love having your own pool.

Okay, here are my specs:

Length 44'-6'
Width: 17'
Pool dimensions: area 694 sf
Perimeter: 118 ft
Internal area of pool: 1186 sf
Depth: 3x5'6'x4
2 Umbrella sleeves
72' of benches
3 fountains
Aqua Blue Pebble Sheen (still contemplating this one)
Salt System

Attached spa area 41sf
Perimeter: 25ft
Internal area of spa: 129 sf
6 jets
Dam wall length: 10'
Dam wall width: 12'

A&A in floor with chanel drain
Filter: Pentair 420 Cartridge
2 - 2HP Whisperflow Pump
1- 1.5HP Whisperflow Pump
2 savi low voltage LED white lights in pool
1 savi low voltage LED white light in spa
400,000 Pentair Master Temp natural gas heater
Intellichlor: Pentair Salt system IC40
Magna Sweep Actuator Valve
Magna Sweep Gamma III Infloor Heads
Leaf Trap: A&A; & Quikskim
Pentair easy touch 8 pool & spa control system

117' Bullnose walnut travertine coping
2000 sf of travertine decking

Hopefully I was able to attach the plans.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{!gwi}}

Wow,
Who is making 31% in Phoenix. Our margins are so tight they squeek.

I like your design.

Very nice design on your part. But I would not use the Savi's. You will be disappointed. With all of the Pentair equipment you are using why not use intellibrites?

I agree that the Savi notes are not going to emit enough light. Intellibrites will.

Intellibrites now come in landscape light flavor too!

Why 3 pumps? The pool and spa can be driven by a VS-3050 and would save you some energy $$s. No problems running the A&A system either.

I think the IC40 is going to be pushed to the limit with your heat, sun, and surface area. I would suggest you step up to the IC60. As it is, you're at about 33,000 gallon plus. The added capacity will be needed.

Typo in the dam wall width? 12 feet seems a bit thick. ;-)

Are the fountains deck jets or lamiters?

Good luck!

Scott

Savi makes more lights than the notes, but I'd use the intellibrites, because the easy touch can control the colors, and modes, while the savi lights the operation might be complicated.

I'll talk to the plumber and electrician and ask them about your recommendations. Thanks for your help!
I also wanted to ask the question, I have been told the plumbing and equipment costs seem to be high. I am being quoted a little over 14k. Does that seem high? It is amazing to me the plumbing cost more than the rebar, shotcrete and interior all put together.

I just finished my pool. I saved some money by doing the decking/waterfall/landscaping using my own laborers that I paid hourly. However, the construction of the shell with the plumbing should be left to a pool contractor. I don't think you will be able to control the costs of you subs to what deal the builder would get because you are not building a dozen jobs a year. Also, getting them back may be difficult if there is an issue. I hope you know them well on a personal level so they don't leave you hanging since you don't have that next job to keep them honest. Another option may be to use a pool builder's subs and pricing while paying him a consultation fee or doing a cost plus. Not traditional and may be hard to find someone to help you in this manner but you really need some experienced eyes to double check the work that goes under your concrete because it will be a big fix if anything goes wrong. Just my 2 cents but you are on a great site for help....there are some really good pool guys here!

justapb,

I agree. This same person went round and round on a local site with other people regarding this claim to save 31%. Supposedly, 4 friends saved 30% all the way up to 58% by going OB!!!! hahaha.... I wish our margins were anywhere near that these days. They are also failing to mention that this 31% savings is before they pay a consultant, which they have made clear they are going to on the other site.

Im still trying to figure it out. I cant imagine a homeowner's time isnt worth the small margin we'll earn. However, if a person truly believes that in AZ they are building the SAME APPLES-TO-APPLES pool that they had a PB bid out and are going to save these types of numbers... I guess I cant blame them for seeing it as an attractive option.

If I get some time this week Im going to try and bid this job out to see what I would build it for.

Summary.... Have fun building your pool and welcome to a great resource to do so. I'm glad you are at the least using qualified, L,B, and Insured subs like you stated on the other site.

natural one,

I admit that I was on the azpoolsubcontractor website and have nothing to hide. I posted every bid that I received and I stated on that website I have nothing to loose or gain by lying about it. I also stated that the bid that was 31% higher by a pool builder included all Hayward Equipment. As you can see from my posts I am using Pentair by going the OB route. We all have our opinions (imagine that) Natural one if you can build my pool according the specs on this post and the drawing provided then your hired! :-)

I have nothing against owner/builders at all.
I do, however, have a problem with pool consultants.
In my area they're typically ex-employees of pool construction companies who went out on their own, didn't cut the mustard, failed with their business attempt, and found out there was no position still available for him at his previous employers business.
They deliberately low ball the actual incurred costs to make the idea of moving with them much more appealing. Then when the gunite bill or whichever one it was comes in they apologize about missing the mark.
I'd suggest passing on the consultant and contact the subs directly with a plan and ask for their bid in writing and binding to a certain timeline like 60 to 90 days from the date of the quotation. Make sure you know exactly what you want and don't execute any changes to the plan.

I agree with the other builders here, I really don't expect you to see a savings of over 30 percent.
Most of my captures since Hurricane Ike have been at 20 percent or less on my margins.

terryibra,
I completely disagree with this statement.

quote" Another option may be to use a pool builder's subs and pricing while paying him a consultation fee or doing a cost plus. "quote

I build my pools at the price I quote or agree to drop to on a meet comp situation when I feel inclined to meet the price.
If there is a problem who are you going to hold accountable?
Trust me on this, consultants have no liability insurance to fall back on in the event of a major problem.
That only leaves your homeowners insurance, they don't settle construction site related claims that occur in your backyard.
Chances are that nothing will happen at all, but the possibility is always there.

I, like the other builders, would love to see your spread sheet on actual sub costs and compare it to a pool builders resell price.

I can't speak for the Arizona market but I seriously doubt the builders over there are making over 30 and even up to a 50 percent return.

Also, go with Irish's advice, lose the Savi lights you'll surely regret them.

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly,
I used Blue Haven pools to build my shell, sub decking, plumbing, electric and equipment. I did the "decorative" things on my own. I left the structural/machanical issues to a licensed pool builder. I said in my statement that it is "not traditional and may be hard to find" concerning a consultant. Maybe I should of added that it is not ideal because if something goes wrong under the gunite, I want the PB to pay for the cost to jack hammer my pool and put it back together. I never entertained using a consultant and would not tackle such a detailed build myself but I do however think that if a home owner is "flying solo" on a project like this, getting a consultant is a better option than trusting the subs without anyone to inspect their work. I understand how a pool builder would consider these guys as being "sell outs" but this home owner is hiring him as his foreman/employee to oversee the build and keep the subs honest. I understand better than anyone that people have to make a living and I always respect peoples margin. When I have work done for me, I get multiple quotes and I don't beat up the contractor on the price because I know that margin will be made up somewhere on my project anyway (probably sacrificing quallity) if I cut it up front on the negotiation. My pool guy did a great job and earned his 20%-whatever it was. I don't know what it is and don't care because, in the end I was happy with my pool and what I paid. I also have the satisfaction of telling people I did this part of it myself even if it was a little part but it did save me some money.
To me I would rather pay the margin and know that my pool is built solid and I am not on the hook for any issues. When I buy a Lexus, I don't wonder how much it cost them to make it and I surely wouldn't buy the parts and put it together myself to save the margin. However, this homeowner may be much more machanically inclined and wants to take a leap of faith to save some hard earned dollars. I hope all goes well and it probably will but it comes down to the decisions we always make in every aspect of life.....Risk vs Reward. The risk would make me unable to sleep at night but we all have different comfort levels.

thanks
Clark

Here are my numbers. The numbers provided are the highest bids I have received and do include sales tax. I also have not negotiated any of the pricing so far:

Plumbing $13,499 this includes in floor cleaning and all Pentair equipment; (this did not include the intellibrites) Excavation and Layout $1,796, Electric $5,947, Gas $800, Steel $1,262, Decking $11,200, Shotcrete $7,305, Tile $425, Pebble Sheen $5,950. Total: $48,184 complete.

It all sounds cheap to me except the electric which is way out of line in my neck of the woods. I don't see how you could tile a pool for $425? Subs want $9 per linear ft for labor only to tie steel in our area. Negotiating an even cheaper price and assuming that performance will not be sacrificed is naive at best.

The whole concept of letting the subs build the pool without someone that understands the big picture and is responsible for it would frighten me. Maybe the Phoenix market is different and the subs are all so good they can understand engineered plans and don't cover up the mistakes and shortcuts because they have such a high moral compass. Any time we use a sub that we havn't developed a track record with its worrysome. Its just too hard for me to understand why someone would take such risks to save a few bucks when it could cost them 2 or 3 times as much down the road in a few years.

Sorry but I just don't get it!

Hard to compare numbers like that across borders, but from here your excavation, tiles and steel is crazy cheap.

You get what you pay for. You want cheap, you'll get cheap. Then nickel and dimed. Then broken, Been there, Done That, Won't go back.

Best of luck to you.

Scott

I'm surprised that there has not been one person who mentioned anything about all of the pool builders in the Phoenix area who have left homeowners high and dry. Homeowners put money down on a pool with a pool company and now they have a hole in their backyard and the pool company went of of business; no warning. The pool companies certainly did not offer to give the homeowners their money back, they didn't care. I have neighbors who had this happen and they ended up going the OB route because when they went to another pool builder they were going to be charged what they referred to as ridiculous amounts of money to fix what the other pool builder left behind. Why not, they have nothing to loose.

I am not crazy, cheap, or unreasonable, that is why I came to this site in the first place. I wanted to talk to the experts and I really appreciate the input thus far.

For those of you who aren't in Phoenix maybe you didn't have any idea that pool builders were doing this to homeowners, because it hasn't been done in your area. The OB's are the 3rd largest builder, I think that says something in itself.

Cascade, all of the bids were pretty close for excavation and steel. But I will talk to more people here and see what there input is. The bid for tile was for grade A, and that may change.

Like I said, hard to compare numbers across borders, and my input probably isn't any help to you but here, $425 wouldn't pay for the tile alone not to mention installation. $1262 would buy the steel, but wouldn't pay for delivery or install and $1796 for excavation? Holy crap I could barely get a machine delivered for that. The last one I did was over $15,000. Of course our conditions here are obviously very different. The gunite seems really low to me too. The plumbing is probably comparable, decking looks ok, electrical seems maybe a touch high, I'd say the plaster is a great deal.
I'm in Canada, our economy hasn't been hit nearly as hard as yours. i guess the point of my post would be that you are really in a buyers market.

Phx,
We have lost alot of builders in this valley, and yes some of them hosed the homeowners, and many subs. But trust me this has happened all over the country.
I partially blame the homeowners for not checking up on these builders, or seeing the warning signs, few go down in a blink.

There is less then 25% of the licensed builders here still pulling active permits, which is what is making it so competitive.

Because of this the OB's are not even close to being the 3rd largest. That is just hype from some of the consultants out there.
In a matter of fact I think it is silly for them to mess with it at the prices that they are selling for.

I get the lists of every pool permit pulled, so I know who is doing what.

As far as the trades, they are certainly not equal. When I started building it took me quite a while to narrow down the best of the best. Just because they can do it and are licensed doesnt make them good.

I get faxes every day from joe(insert trade here)guy that can do the work for XX dollars cheaper then the last guy. There is a point when they have to be cutting corners, or their employees really dont care because they are not making any money.

Could I build pools for less, certainly!!.
Will I, Hell NO!! I trust the subs I employ, and I know they will be in business for a very long time, as will I god willing.
Its tough for you know any of this when you are a one shot deal.
Unfortunatly I dont travel that far or I would give you a bid.
I am not knocking you at all for doing what you think is right, but I dont think you talked to the right builders.
Good luck with the process, and enjoy:)

Cascade,,,,,$15K for excavation, wow. What are they excavating a mountain? :-)

I paid someone to design the pool, engineering and for a list of subs. I also called about 10 OB's who used the subs on the list and every single OB I talked to had nothing but positive feedback about the subs. This isn't just a one shot deal, these subs are continually getting referred by the person that did the design so they do have something to loose......more business.

My former boss and I made a deal....he can't afford to pay me to work for him any more, so he is helping me with my pool and I am helping him with his bookkeeping. Yes, he does all sorts of construction and I would trust him with my life!

I actually had a sub tell me that one pool builder wanted them to do about a $6k job for nothing so they could evaluate the subs work......what is up with that?

I look foward to more input about my pool but I still have alot of research to do before a hole is in my backyard!

I forgot to mention that the steel sub gave me a break and did not charge for any benches or steps.

pool builder, while I admire your ambition I have to say as a hardscape contractor in Vegas, that deck bid looks low. As you know I'm sure, Vegas is as depressed as the Phoenix market price wise. There are all grades of travertine and I could barely deliver all material to your site for that price. Bad quality can be compensated for to a certain extent, and the deck can always be fixed. We just believe its better to do it right the first time.
You are most certainly right that contractors go belly up and leave homeowners holding the ball. In NV we have a residential fund we pay into, pool builders pay into a separate one, that pays homeowners (eventually) for jobs gone undone or wrong. I would more worry about the pool itself than decking, I would just advise you be there as the deck is done, make sure they are not substituting limestone for travertine. Although they can put any label on a product. Good luck on your build. Barb

cascade and poolguynj - We did just an OB pool and those prices are normal for the market here in phx, even with the top notch subs who also do work for the big time pool builders. The subs are very much looking for work. No doubt, OBs don't get pool builder prices, but it is still very competitive.

poolownerbuilder, That plumbing bid seems high, but I haven't priced out your equipment. Excluding the filter and pumps, we had 2 different bids to plumb for in-floor and with vac-line/returns for between $4-$5k. (without a spa, but with 3 waterfall lines) Email me if you'd like some plumbing sub recommentations.

Your steel and tile prices are below what I got. Check out Baja Pebble as an alternative to Pebble Sheen - may not be your cup of tea, but we really like ours. Your electric also seems high, but your pool is much different than mine.

Several posters above mentioned Travertine grades, and I'd have to agree that it is something to watch for. We had to check the pallets and had some returned for either quality or color. Our sub did outstanding workmanship, but I think had some issues with his supplier.

$11k for 2k sq ft of travertine seems like a very good price ($5.50/ sq ft) - almost too good from the bids I got. Are they laying it on top of 6 inches of ABC and sand? Are you going with 3-pattern, or chiseled/tumbled? WOW. Ours was closer to $9 sq/ft for roman pattern tumbled trav pavers and installation.

Of course, you've got to stay on top of those subs, but what I found is that as long as you're there and communicate clearly what you want, they will do whatever necessary to make you happy with the quality of their work.

Also recommend the intellibrites. We have 2 of them and they are very nice.

good luck,
phxownerbuilder

Poolownerbuilder, Since you are taking on the role of GC, you might want to consider taking out a separate liability insurance policy on the project or at least check with your agent to see if you are covered in case of a personal injury claim or product failure in the long term. It would be wise to get copies of your subs insurance certificates in advance and also set up a reserve fund with some of your savings to partially offset some of the risk you are taking.

Now that is some very sound advice!

Scott

phxownerbuilder,

The sub that quoted the travertine did other work for us and we know he is reliable and does great work. That price includes AB and sand. I know its almost hard to believe.

renovxpt, I am getting certificates of insurance from every sub and lien waivers when the job is done. I have already contacted my insurance company and have that under control too. I have actually been planning this for over a year and am just now getting close to possibly starting. Just have a few more kinks to figure out.

My travertine sub he had a pool builder that wanted to bid my project and said he could beat my price. If he is within 5k we will be having our pool built by him. It will be interesting to see what he has to say.

it is amazing the price differences by location. I paid 9k for my pebble and literally paid twice as much on many aspects of my pool build. I shopped around also, so I got a good deal. Is North Carolina that much more expensive because it seams that people who built on this sight in Texas, Florida, and Arizona are posting prices 30-40% less. How can that be? The subs around here aren't driving around in S-500's and I am sure materials are not twice as much.

There are a number of reasons that I can think of.

Volume, Insurances, Materials, Labor, Taxes, Rent, Fees, etc...

PT as I understand it, comes from the west coast ports. Now shipping plays a big role.

It all adds up. See pricing in Seattle for sticker shock.

Scott

terrybra, I am just as amazed at the price diffence and share all those same questions you mentioned.

Here are some current contractor prices without tax. It would interesting to know what these base prices are in other markets.

Grade 60 #3 rebar 3.46 per bar
grade 40 2.65
Sub install 9 per perimeter ft
yard of 4000 shotcrete 106-114
sub shoot 62-74 per yd
2inch pipe 16 per stick
2 1/2 21 per

Can someone pleae tell me the difference betweren gunite and shotcrete? I'm told Gunite is much stronger.

Thanks!

Gunite is mixed at the nozzle. Shotcrete is premixed and pumped.

Gunite comes out of the nozzle at about 300 MPH and shotcrete at about 200.

Properly mixed, they are both going to give you 4000 PSI compressive strength. The steel rebar size and layout is just as important in the shell's strength.

Scott

Thanks, Scott.

Today is the day the pool company (who was recommended by our travertine installer) is going to provide a bid on our pool. This will be interesting to say the least.

Make sure and check out his license.

Here is a link that might be useful: AZ ROC

Really like this thread. Wish i found it sooner. I'm an OB in NYC suburb.

We are near the plaster phase of our project. Meeting with a sub Saturday. I have no clue on price. And we haven't picked a plaster yet. We have about 1500 SF surface area. Anyone have a clue on what this should cost?

Here are some of the prices we paid for major items:

Dig: $900 for excavation (local one-man show, took 5 hours). $950 for two tri-ax dumps to truck out fill. I did the layout. I also did the finish scraping and shaping. This was hard work. Next time I'll get labor.

Gunite: $185 yd (shot), 58 yards. Tri-State Gunite, they were great, but not one guy wore a mask, which I found very disturbing. Plus my wife got them KFC for lunch and I tipped them 20 each.

Electric: Best Quote $6,600, 110 ft buried conduit run, no. 6 wire, 4 lights connect only. (no equipment except Intermatic Timer). I ended up paying a licensed electrician $1,000 to coordinate with the underwriter and am doing it myself with 100 amp service to a subpanel and intellitouch i9+3. Pentair has GREAT tech support, very friendly people with lots of time. If you have electrical aptitude, do not be afraid to try this.

Gas: 100' buried run with 2" HDPE. Then 40' inside with 1.5" black. Best price 7,500. Did it myself for 1,600 in pipe and sand. Bought a 400K pentair mastertemp online for $1,800. If you are handy you can do this.

Rebar: Grade 60 about $0.75/lb. ($5.70 for 20 foot #3 bar). Delivered about 60 miles, I unloaded. I would leave install to a sub, it took me 2 weeks working 7 PM to midnight, and it was not fun and my hands took a week to stop bleeding.

Tile: We paid $6/SF from MSI Stone for quartzite mosaic. We're DIY install this weekend weather permitting.

I see a lot of "upgrade" cost on plaster, but we would like to get insight on total plaster cost. if anyone can help with some insight on 1500 sf of plaster, thanks.

Your 1-1/2" black pipe is likely to cause a bottleneck to your heater. You might want to think about changing it to a 2" line coming off the gas meter.

Has the meter been upgraded to be able to supply added volume?

Scott

I know, I like big pipes too. But I had to go through the basement and turn vertical through a wall, then out the back of the house. It was the only way, believe it or not, and 2" is just too big to work with that way.

The Mastertemp book for gas piping says you can go 200 feet at 1.5", or 400 feet at 2". So I should be good at 40' of 1.5" plus 100' of 2". I do have a whole bunch of elbows on the 1.5" though.

But, Pentair requires pressure min at 4" wc. My gas company says they calibrate the meter at 7"wc, so that should give me a boost.

Yes, the gas company came out and looked at the meter. They have to change it.

Do you have a clue on plaster cost for 1500 SF surface (about a 29,000 gal pool)?

NY prices are totally different than NJ pricing. It also depends on the finish you choose.

Scott

Well we met with the pool builder and I am happy to say we signed the contract with Martin Pool and Spas in Gilbert, Arizona. They are going to start the dig on March 30....woooooooohoooooooooooooo. Big relief for me and HUGE relief for my husband. I should be posting the pics and pool information soon. We have a landscape company doing the landscaping so it will not be included in the picture.

1500 sq. ft of plaster???? Is this total IA or just the sq. ft. of the floor? Depending on which plaster you use and the part of the country you are in the prices vary quite a bit.

Good luck,

David

Poolownerbuilder,
I guess you will have to change your name:o

I havent heard of them good or bad, they have been licensed for almost 1.5 years, and have no complaints.

It's 1500 SF of total plaster surface. The pool area is about 720Sf.

We got a price for 2500, which includes the 8' dia. spa. just regular plaster, the plaster guys blend. Diamond Brite or pebble tech would be an extra 3,000.

The company is Penna plaster. They are in NY and Texas. Anyone use them?

Find out the brand and mix ratio for the plaster. 3K extra for DB is a steep jump.

Scott