Mary,

Besides the good advice above, I would still recommend reviewing the water tests from the house sale so you know what your water contains. A softener is not just for hard water... it could be solving other water problems. The raw and treated water tests from your sale will give you the details. If you want to post any elements that are over the limits I can give you info on what that means.

You also said you had 3 tanks and a salt tank... the Model 60 only used two tanks and a salt tank... you may also have a pH filter or some other type filter in the 3rd tank.

In what part of the countrty is a seller required to provide water quality reports?......Good point though, I forgot about the third tank.......mary, can you post a photo?

If marymac calls her local Kinetico dealer for a service call they should identify exactly what the softener and associated Kinetico hardware is, test the water, and make the correct adjustments for her water or recommend repairs or service needs.

Hi all, Well I did contact Kinectico in my area. They were real nice folks. They were able to trace my system back to 1987, so I'm looking at a unit about 20 years old. It may have had some parts replaced by now though for all I know. I think I will be better off just having them do a service call and get everything in order for me, and make sure everything works like it should. You guys all gave me some good info and advice,I appreciate it. This is a great place when you need some help....THANKS ALL...marymac

NJ requires water tests on change of ownership... sorry, I forgot that it is not required all over the country.

Mary, if you are not in an area that requires tests on sale of house, definately get them done. your county health dept can tell you what is recommended in your area... do them all. you definately do not want to save a few $ only to find a few years from now that you have been drinking radium or benzene... very unlikly unless you have trends in your area or you live near a gas station or junk yard... but, better safe than sorry.

HI... I am planning on having the water tested . I think Kinetico can do that for me. When I bought the house it was a buy as is deal through a bank foreclosure, with no disclosures from the bank and we were responsible for any tests on anything. When we were working on getting the water well going is when we became concerned about all the filtration, and why. We wondered if there may be some real issues with the water quality. Soooooo, I guess the best and safest thing to do is have it tested. You're absolutely right, better safe than sorry. THANKS...marymac

Hi. all
I also have Kinetico Softener 60.
I was wondering if I can add on any other filters like maybe carbon filters or etc to get rid off rotten egg smell that might be present.
Also, how to find out if it regenerates?
And last question,
how is well woter that goes through softener impacts newborns, should we add RO filters etc...?

I forgot one thing regarding selling/buying homes.
In the RE contract there is a section for properties with water wells.... and depending in which state the property is ussually the seller must test the water and submit the results. But in case of as is, or foreclosed , then all is done by buyers,,,, hope it helps

I recommend you call your local Kinetico dealer and pose those questions to them. They'll test your water and make sure you have the correct treatment you need.

Hi everyone, Well I got my kinetico softener going. I haven't contacted the Kinetico dealer as yet. Before I turned on the softener my water just tasted like hard water and had a slight mineral smell. Now with the softener going the cold water has a slight skunky smell and the hot water has a pretty strong skunky smell. Maybe this is normal I don't know. I am still planing on having the system checked out.but I'm curious,has anybody else ever heard of this?..I thought my water would be better. Also it seems my coffee has no taste to it anymore,no matter how much coffee I use. What's going on? marymac.

Ok......DenH.....you need to get in touch with the dealer.....the odor needs to be address with something other than a carbon filter.....when you have a non chlorinated system (well) the carbon will breed bacteria.......it may be the type of pressure tank you're using, or the annode.......there're many possibilties..three indications the unit is regenerating...1) the water is soft...2) you hear it....3) you're using salt...Mary.....you really should contact your dealer......the unit was probaly sitting for a while which can do anything to a softner.....your water will be better......now, both Mary and DenH.....the quality of the water from a water softner will NEVER be the same as R/O water.....the TDS in your water is what has the effect on drinks and food that is prepared with the water.....if you were to use R/O water for your coffee (Mary) then you would actually use LESS coffee grounds to achieve an intense coffee flavor.....if you don't believe me, ask your Kinetico dealer to do the "tea test" when you have them come out....as far as it being safe for babies, you have to look at the TDS number.....I haven't checked in a while, but I believe the EPA says you should be consuming water that is 50 TDS and below, and be concerned if the TDS is 600 or above....depending on the hardness of your water, the TDS can increase slightly.....the amount of sodium ions added to the water during the softner process is a direct response to the hardness.....the harder the water, the more sodium.....You have to decide if it's safe for your baby....personally I use R/O water for coffee, tea, Kool-aid, juice, pasta, rice, potatoes, soups, gumbos, chili, washing fresh vegtables, dogs......anything that comes into contact with my mouth is prepared with, or is, R/O water.

Thnaks, JDP38,
I forgot to mention, tht we have tested it and the nitrate result was And unit dooes work well.
Annoode rod was replaced = => got rid of hot water smell.
well was chlorinated 6 months ago ==> killed cold water smell.
The kinetico guy, who was doing the chlorination, and annode rod replacement, said that cold water smell might comeback, so the chlorination needs to be done again.
But are there any filters that could be installed before main house filter to better filter stuff like iron, or etc...

den77,

You'd get more help here if you posted the results of a complete water test rather than snippets of info. If your iron is less than 3ppm then a softener may be all you need for that but what about manganese, PH, and the other stuff?

As I understand it, "shocking" the well (with bleach) is NOT to be done often.

If it were my well and my drinking water I'd want to cure the disease rather than treat the symptom.

justalurker, thanks for response,
I am looking at my water test that we got prior closing,
and it only has these 3 things.... No Ph, no iron readings, not mentioning Mg levels etc....
Is that normal???? I am scanning and will post it for your opinion.

den77,

If that is the case then I recommend you get a complete independent water test from an indpendent lab.

Once you get a complete test you can identify the problems that need to be treated. Until you know all the problems you're shooting in the dark.

Is the Kinetico guy's position that repeated bleaching of your well is the proper treatment for the smell? If yes, then you need to be dealing with someone else.

Many times it may be a confusion of terms......did the tech "shock" the WELL.......or did he chlorinate?? there is a big difference.....chlorinators have been used for many years and come in a variety of styles.....with a submersable well, you can inject down into the casing and not hurt the well.....my question is did he chlorinate the well or the tank.....another question is, do you have a bladder tank or a galvanized tank?

Hello--I attended the Anaheim home show where there were lots of softwater systems. Although expensive (about $5000 installed, including tax, for whole house system, & $1200 for a RO), I found the Hague Watermax had the best (25 yr) warrentee.
The saleman claimed that their system could regenerate on as little as one pound of salt & 13.5 gal. of water in as little as 15 min.
Our hardness runs 10-12 GPG. It is just my wife & myself.
Also can I cut down on chemicals if I fill my spa with soft water.
I have read a lot of your comments on the Kinetico. Can it be compared to the Hauge. I can afford the best. If not Hague, what other systems do you recommend. Thx for your input. Dave

organic27dave,

The Hauge is a proprietary design and has been around a while. Some like it and some don't. I know a guy who has one and he is very happy. You'll be getting all your parts and service from the Hauge dealer and if they are good then you're OK.

As far as "efficency" that is in the eye of the beholder (or the mouth of the salesman). I have 28g (more than twice your hardness) hard water. There are only two people in my home. We use ONE bag of potassium chloride (KCl) a month. That's 12 bags per year at a cost of $6.49 per bag. My softener regenerates about once a week and uses about 50 gallons to regenerate. It regenrates at 2AM so I don't care how long it takes (anout 90 minutes). I have a generic (industry standard) water softener that cost one sixth of the Hauge Watermax I was quoted. Can it get any more efficent than that?

If I were you I'd call a few local water treatment pros to come out, test the water, and make recommendations. Then, compare that info with the Hauge and make a choice. Either way, you'll be OK as long as you stay away from pre-built big box store softeners.

I have found the Hague and Kinetico to be absolute rip-offs. A top notch water softener with approx. 40k grain capacity and top notch RO system under the kitchen sink should run you under $1,500 installed.

If Hague is correct, calculate how much savings you will get in salt and water with the Hague versus the above solution (available anywhere from a number of quality pros) and then calculate how long it will take you to recover the dollars spent on the Hague in salt and water savings. Also remember that the Hague folks will be quoting you best-case scenarios on water and salt savings which may have little or no relation to your particular circumstances.

The only advantage to Kinetico is that it doesn't require power, but that's a moot point really. The powered units still continue softening even through a power outage, the only difference is that you have to set the clock once the power comes back on. Big deal.

There are lots of scams out there. Basically any residential solution that doesn't use NaCl or KCl to remove hardness is a SCAM. The technology is really rather simple. With Kinetico and Hague you are paying for advertising and sales overhead, not additional quality or some incredible technology.

sshrivastava says ...

"The only advantage to Kinetico is that it doesn't require power, but that's a moot point really. The powered units still continue softening even through a power outage, the only difference is that you have to set the clock once the power comes back on. Big deal."

Absolutely WRONG! Any water softener that requires electricity uses that electricity to do more than run a clock The electricity runs the control valve motor which rotates a rotor or cam or drum or stack to move the control valves the the sequential steps of regeneration and "time" those steps.

Some electric powered control valves will "remember" what step they were on in the regeneration process and pick up where they left off when he power is restored and some won't.And let's remember, there are 5 minute power outages and there are 10 hour power outages.

If an electric control valve loses power in the middle of brining or rinsing it will continue to run water to drain until power is restored. If you're out of the house when this happens you'll have quite a water bill when you return.

"There are lots of scams out there. Basically any residential solution that doesn't use NaCl or KCl to remove hardness is a SCAM. The technology is really rather simple.

True.

"With Kinetico and Hague you are paying for advertising and sales overhead, not additional quality or some incredible technology."

With Kinetico you are paying for an extensive dealer/service network providing service and parts in a timely manner AND the no electricity required technology that sometimes may allow a softener installation that could otherwise NOT be done.

I don't own a Kinetico but am simply an admirer.

If an electric powered softener is in service, softening water, and the power goes out it will continue to soften water as sshrivastava stated.

It is IF the softener is in regeneration and the power goes out that it will sit there in whatever step of regeneration it is in.

AND, single resin tank softeners DO NOT PROVIDE SOFT WATER WHILE REGENERATING. If your power fails while your single resin tank softener is in any regenration stage you will be getting hard water to your house until the power returns and the softener finishes regenerating.

Maybe that Kinetico no electricity required technology isn't such a bad idea in some circumstances.

Lots of ifs, but not much in the way of solid everyday benefits to either the Kinetico or Hague to justify the stratospheric pricetags. Although I love great technology and don't mind paying for something with real everyday benefits, I just couldn't justify the pricetags on those units and opted for the industry standard Clack-based unit which was sold by a trustworthy local dealer. Tried and true.

I can see some benefits to the Kinetico, but in my particular case not enough for the price.

sshrivastava,

I took issue with the "facts" you posted that were not correct not your choice of softener or unwillingness to pay more than you deemed practical.

You got a quality softener from a local dealer who will service what they sold. There is no better deal to be had.

That you see no value in spending more is your choice. Other people may, and apparently do, see the choice differently.

I've investigated FL washers and was surprised to discover that in my circumstance it would take MANY years to recover the (substantial) extra cost over a TL washer solely based on the extra efficiency of the FL washer. Made no sense to me so I passed. That doesn't mean that for someone in different circumstances a FL washer wouldn't save them a bundle in short order.

The point is to get a dollar's worth for a dollar, and reliable quality water, and you did.

Hi all... Well, I had a service call from the Kinetico dealer. He told me my problem with not getting soft water has to do with a pressure problem in the plumbing. I wasn't given a price to fix the problem,just that it could be quite a bit. And considering the age of my Kinetico [20] years old, it probably would be chancy spending a lot on the system. So now I have an appointment set up for 10 O"clock this morning with a salesman from Kinetico. Here's the problem...He called me on the phone and said " you don't really want to buy another Kinetico do you?" He said he could set me up with something real comperable to a Kinetico for about 1.000 dollars less and it would be just as good. Although If I really wanted a Kinetico he could refer me to another company in my area,because he was coming out of his district, as far as sales fo the Kinetico he was allowed to make. So he same as tells me he's just interested in selling me someting ,and I'm just interested in getting my moneys worth. I've been followiong this thread for some time now, and am more confused. The salesman says if you get 20 to 25 years of service from your Kinetico thats all you can expect. Should I fix, replace, buy a cheaper brand? I know it's what I want to spend in the end, I just wish I knew what would be the best decision. marymac

well, now I'm confused too Mary......I would really like to talk to you in person but it's kinda hard to post a phone number here.....the offer he's making to you for something compareable is outrageous......he wants to make the sale to you, yet because he would be out of his territory to sell you a Kinetico, he will try to sell you another brand.....where are you at??......I know dealers across the nation and will see what I can do for you......the technician that came out to see you, did he put you into contact with the salesman?.....when you say plumbing problems, what exactly was he talking about.......please don't do anything yet....I don't care which direction you take as long as you don't get screwed!

HELLO...After meeting with the sales rep. I decided to buy a softener. It will cost me 1.200 installed with a 90 day no question asked return warranty,1 year service warranty and 5 year parts warranty. There are just 2 people in my house and I was convinced I do not need the 2 tank Kinetico or the other brand which is similar. they are supposed to come install it Friday 15. I haven't paid anything yet,and I suppose I could cancel if I really wanted to.I thought this would probably be a good deal for the money involved. Yea, the tech. was the person who called the sales office. The plumbing problem had something to do with the softener not holding pressure. marymac

Hi Mary,
Two words ... second opinion and maybe a third.

Hi jdp38;

Have you ever had your Kinetico serviced? I'm new to all this and I don't really know which way to go with all this. I was told by the service man that 20-25 years was old and to have them recharged would cost about 300.00 dollars. Plus the plumbing problem, someting that was causing me to loose pressure at the softener,that I would be further ahead to replace it with a unit more specific to my needs It cost me 80.00 bucks to be told all this, if I get a second opinion it will be more. Is it really worth it? I don't know. marymac

Mary,

You might want to check this post by beebow:

"Posted by beebow (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 15, 06 at 1:38

I live in Phoenix and have a 18 year old Kinetico K60 twin tank. We just had it rebuilt. No service or problems since new."

Posted in this thread ...

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/plumbing/msg0213433918894.html?69

Water softeners don't "hold pressure". The pressure is in the plumbing. If the softener is restricting water flow that is one thing ... if it doesn't hold pressure then it LEAKS water on the ground. If you have a plumbling problem then that will need to be resolved regardless of what softener you have or buy.

As far as your Kinetico ... if the softener is restricting the water flow then the pressure loss could be fouled resin. Replacing the resin will solve that problem. If the control valve needs to be rebuilt that's not incredibly expensive either.

You already know the long service life of a Kinetico softener and that the company isn't going anywhere so parts and service are readily available.

It would be real interesting to know the exact specs and components the dealer is offering you in that $1200 softener they're in such a hurry to sell you.

Another question, if you buy the new softener do you get to keep the old Kinetico or is the dealer going to "haul it away for you". Many independent dealers love to snag Kineticos because they sell very well on the used market.

Just food for thought.

HI justalurker;

I don't know if it makes any difference or not, but the Kinetico set unused for about 4 years. From ny understanding no had lived in this house that long. I don't know how that would affect a softener. Also I don't know when the plumbing was winterized. That may have something to do with the problems it has. As for the dealer taking the Kinetico ,they said they will take it out if we want. I told him I wasn't sure about that. marymac

Mary,

Sitting around for an extended period without water flowing is not good for a water softener. That might foul the resin.

Still sounds like there's more to this story than you're being told. I'd want to know details on the plumbing problems and details on the softener "not holding pressure" BEFORE I made any decision about anything.

Is all the other well hardware (pump and stuff) working properly?

I'd like to know the results of a recent water test and IIRC you have a sediment pre-filter before the softener. That might not be functioning properly and may be part of the problem.

Based on that info I'd want a detailed quote on repairing/rebuilding your Kinetico and a detailed quote on the $1200 softener including details about the components.

Sounds to me like the dealer who can't sell you a Kinetico "out of area" wants to sell you something else. How about calling the Kinetico dealer in your area and getting your water tested and a quote to repair or rebuild your Kinetico?

In the meantime, I'd call the first dealer and tell them you're still thinking and don't want their softener right now.

Something sounds real fishy and you need to take a deep breath and get a few more knowledgable opinions before opening your wallet.

justalurker...Hi

You have definately given me something to think about,and I'm having some seriour doubts about the honesty of more and more sales people. i know everyone has to make a living,and in a big way we are all in the same boat,but I need to watch my expenses as well. I think I need to cancel the purchase at least till I am more confident that I am making the right move. I am sure I can always call them back and say ok I want it. right? Yes there is a pre filter. He said it was probably an iron filter,and that with a Kinetico you always have to have a prefilter of some kind. Is this true? I mean who can I really trust? If I have the Kinetico dealer in my district come out he may find the same problem and probably try to sell me another Kinetico.They both are Kinetico dealers, just the one was out of his sales district. So I guess he figured he'd sell me something rather than nothing. The repair man did mention that it could be fixed but it would be costly.and there was a chance the resin tanks could be bad. marymac

Mary,

If the resin tanks are bad they leak ... plain and simple. Is there water on the floor?

I believe the pre-filter is for sediment and not iron.

If you spend $300 or $400 to totally rebuild a $3500 Kinetico softener and get another 15-20 years of reliable service that's OK in my book and in my wallet.

I leave it for the Kinetico owners to chime in BUT I'd call the local Kinetico dealer and get their recommendation. They might be interested in cultivating a customer where they had none. The worst thing that can happen is you'll have more substantive info and can make a more informed choice.

Maybe Beebow will jump in on this thread as he's already been right where you are.

What if the resin tanks are fouled? How expensive would that be?..marymac

The tanks are only polyglass jugs. It's the resin that fouls. Open the tanks, dump out the old resin, put in new resin.

Resin runs about $100 per cubic foot so maybe $200 to $300 parts and labor.

Mary, sit back, have a cup of coffee, and call the local Kinetico dealer.

Mary,

'Lurker's right.....so you have to rebed the tanks?....after 20+ years, who cares?.....parts and labor to rebed the tanks and replace broken or worn out parts should be somewhere in the 500 to 600 range.....that's everything and see ya in 20....if, when he told you "pressure problem" he was referring to the bypass having a malfunction, you can build one out of PVC for about $10......and no, contrary to peoples belief (including some who post on these sights) the Kinetico does not "require" a pre-filter....it is there only as an insurance policy for the unit.....if the city sends something to my house that they shouldn't have, I would rather the $7 washable pre filter pick it up as opposed to my unit!.....please, call the other dealer and explain the situation as you have here......or, if you do not like the way it's being handled, call Kinetico directly.

I just filled my Miele dishwasher with softening salt, and some spilled out and sat on the interior stainless panel for an hour or two until I ran a cycle. This morning I woke up to rust spots approximately in those same locations.

Is my dishwasher rusting, or is that iron in the water that somehow precipitated out and oxidized because of the salt? Anyone know?

My wife woke this Sunday morning to tell me that water was not flowing out of the faucets. As I went through my mental checklist of things, it became apparent there was something else wrong. For starters, I noticed a golden sand-like substance from some of the faucets. Didn't know what it was and I was concerned it could have been water contamination. I called the water district and after 10 minutes, the water QA guy came on and said I probably had zeolite membrane failure in water softener and had zeolite in the plumbing. Verified what zeolite was on the web. Yeah it's zeolite. Now, how do I get the stuff out of my pipes! I can't use toilets, showers, wash clothes, etc. as the zeolite has pretty much plugged up the valves. Hot water is OK only cold water valves seem affected. I need to take care of this without getting ripped-off from a plumber. What can I do and what should I expect from a reputable plumber should I need professional assistance?

vicainza,

First thing, you'll get quicker response to your post if you start a new thread stating your problem than by putting your question at the end of an existing thread. It's too easy for your question to get lost.

There is no "zeolite membrane" to fail in a softener but you do have softener resin in your plumbing. You'll need a plumber to remove all the aeroraters and faucet cartidges from all the plumbing fixtures and flush the resin from the plumbing. You'll want to check your washer, dishwasher, and toilets and bath tub fixtures and showers and hose bibs along with the water heater. The resin needs to be completely flushed out.

Somehow the resin from your softener has gotten into the output of the softener and into your plumbing. Your softener has a problem and you'll need a water treatment pro who specializes in softeners to diagnose and correct the softener problem. Plumbers usually don't specialize in softener repair so best to get a pro who does.

The resin is not toxic and won't hurt you but it will plug up pipes and faucets and ice makers and such.

Start a new thread and let us know how it goes.

Wow! I'm glad i found this page!
I just bought a new house plumbed with a soft water loop and brine line and need advice on a system. The deal I found was for a ULTIMA Econominder 48K grain DIGITAL. It includes: 1" bypass,black sleeve &brine tank, 24/12 volt transformer, dbl. saftey brine valve, soft hose bib, ball valve shut off, 200# salt or 80#KCL. Brine tank is 15x17x33. The control valve is a Water Specialist 1" WSI. Warrenties are: lifetime on fiberfglass pressure vessel and salt storage tank (shell only). 5yr on valve body, internal valve parts and timer asesembly and 1 yr from distributor. The whole thing installed was quoted #1310.00 plus tax. This is my first purchase of a system and I would appreciate any advice as to this offer. I'm in Scottsdale Arizona.
Thanks,
Bill

Bill,

A solid idustry standard softener. The WS1 control valve is made by Clack. Only been around for 5 years or so but has earned a solid reputation. The people who designed the WS1 were Fleck engineers (Fleck is the industry standard).

A few questions...

Was this system quoted by a local company who actually tested your water and properly sized the softener for the SFR of your plumbing your water use?

Is the warranty for parts AND labor?

I'd think that in Scottsdale you wouldn't want anything colored black, why not almond?

And, you'd probably get more repsonses if you started a new thread rather than tagging onto this old one.

Thanks for the prompt response.
The system was quoted by a local company in Scottsdale. Actually my neighboor is a contractor and this is the guy he uses (High Peaks Water Services). The warranty is 1 yr LABOR through High Peaks Water Services. His recommendation was based off of what I told him over the phone: just under 3000 square feet, 2 adults and two children, 4 bed, 3 bath. None of the companies I've contacted offered to come and test the water to determine the right system. I did not know about this until finding this site. Is this absolutley a must? Should I be weary of any company that does not offer this?
Thanks again for your insight!
Bill

P.S. In regards to "starting a new thread" with this subject...I'm a little 'new' to this forum blog thing. I don't see an option on how to post a new thread on the site. Any help appreciated.

Just another chime in for Kinetico, although marymac's post was Sept'06. Our Kinetico stopped regenerating...turned out it was a combination of the KCl salt breaking down and caking at the bottom of the brine tub, and a broken cycling cam on the primary softening tank. I took care of the caking, the service visit was less than $100.

Althought the tub holds 7 bags or more, the service rep recommended putting in no more than 2-3 since the weight of the additional salt contributes to caking at the bottom.

Another note regarding why we bought Kinetico -- we live in a rural mountain area where power outages can be frequent and lengthy. Separate from the softening issue during power failures, the power outages also have fried the electronics of other softeners in our neighborhood (not covered under warranties), so we opted for Kinetico.

mtnwomanbc,

Actually the best method for adding KCl or NaCl in the brine tank is to only put enough in to cover the water.

That procedure reduces the possibility of mushing and bridging with NaCL or recrystallization with KCL.

An added benefit is that we get in the habit of taking a look at our softeners every week to make sure all is well.

good FAQ on softener salt here

I have the hague watermax system with the digital control valve on top. This is on a well, there are three tanks one of them is salt, the other two have the digital controls on top of them.

The digital controls are both peeping, and the screens both say home not found. I tried to use the control, but it does not recognize that I'm pressing the buttons. Is there some code sequence or reset to make it work. Thanks

Hi everyone. I happened upon your website by putting "How to maintain a water softener system" into the web browser and am very impressed. We recently moved into a house with a Autotrol Model 4601 with GE infrastructure. Our water is slippery and as I read above the system has too much salt in it? Do you know where I can get a owners manual, ect...I don't know anything about this or the septic system. Much thanks.

This is my first experience with a septic system. I heard you can't use bleach because it counteracts decomp process? How often do you treat septic system and what is best to use? Thank you

I have two drywells with an A-B switch and never put anything in the septic system. I do use bleach and do not have a disposer and contemplate not having a problem.

HI,

I have enjoyed reading all the blogs and learned a lot from you all. I am in the process of building a new home and the builder has an option to put in a water softener. I was wondering if anyone has any information on the Ultima whole house water softener 48K or 70K grain system? I know there are lots of brands but not sure to get the one that the builder uses. Any help on this will be greatly appriciated.