Help with water Softener Selection

11 years ago

May you help me select a water softener system? do I need a reverse osmosis and whole house filtration systems based on these values below? We have Watts, Culligan and Kinetico in the area and EWS reps. Thank you in advance.

3 full baths, 2 half baths, airjet tub. 2 occupants initially potential for 4 total. Water tested by the DEQ:

Private well water, almost finished with construction, plumbing fixtures not in the home yet. Water obtained from outside tap.

Results:

Total Coliform and E.Coli: absent

Nitrite+nitrate: 1.14 mg/L

Lead total: Arsenic total: Chromium total: Specific Conductance: 1020 uMHO/CM

pH, liquid: 6.68 STD unit

Alkalinity, Total: 427 MG/L

Solids, Total Dissolved: 565 MG/L

Hardness, Total: 552 MG/L

Chloride: 67.2 MG/L

Sulfate: 40.4 MG/L

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Comments (11)

User
11 years ago
Ok, water softener 101 ...

Hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local water treatment pros. Make sure you call at least one of the big dogs like Kinetico or Culligan for comparison and at least a couple independent pros. DON'T TELL THEM YOU HAD YOUR WATER TESTED.

Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated.

Ask lots of questions. Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale.

After they've gone use your water test to compare with theirs. Are all your treatment needs being addressed?

Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid.

Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware components with the costs and we'll give you our opinions.
rayb1
Original Author
11 years ago
One company recommended the following softener and also a 4 stage reverse osmosis system. Thank you.

Tank size: 10" x 54"
Media cu. ft.: 1.5
Line size: 3/4"-11/4"
Valvehead Metered: DTV-M
Installed Unit size: 10" x 63" with >>
Brine Tank: 16" x 34"
Salt capacity 300 lbs
Water flow (GPM): 10
Backwash (GPM): 4.
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Water softeners are sized based on the water conditions, # of people, # of bathrooms, and other variables. Based on what you posted you should be looking at around a 3.5 cu ft softener and with it setup to operate at an efficient salt dose will regenerate every 7 days. You might get by with a 2.5 cu ft softener but it will not operate as efficiently (will use more salt) and have a lower SFR. As for installation... if the water service is accessible in the basement and there is a drain and an electrical outlet you're basically looking at local plumber rates and materials. Plumbers can install softeners, and some install them backwards, so an install by a water treatment pro is preferred. Before you make any decisions may I suggest... Hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local water treatment pros. Make sure you call at least one of the big dogs like Kinetico or Culligan for comparison and at least a couple independent pros. Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated. Ask lots of questions. Softening the entire house or just the water heater (IMO a bad idea)? Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale. Are all your treatment needs being addressed? Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid. Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware components with the costs and we'll give you our opinions.
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I'll call tomorrow and set up tests to determine ferric or ferrous with the other lab in town, I was surprised the lab I went with couldn't determine it. Also the well specialist sounds like a good idea, all I had was an outside well inspection which didn't sound like much. As far as moving it, the current location is in the basement family room. They must have finished the basement after it was installed as the drain and AC outlet it's using are actually in the utility room, the power cord & drain hose are running 4' from one side, behind the dividing wall, then through to the other side. Just needs some pipe shortening/extending about 6' so won't be terrible. Previous owners did some pretty goofy things, I thought about throwing a curtain around it but still haven't decided. Is the ferric or ferrous going to determine what type of resin/media I need when I order the softener itself? Also if this'll work for me like you recommended another guy here, I've already got it saved... "For resin cleaning, once a month use 1/4 cup of Iron Out, Super Iron Out, Rust Pro etc. dissolved into a gallon or two of warm water and pour it into the 4" round tube in the brine tank where the float is and then flush that with a quart of clear water. Wait two hours and then do a manual regeneration." Again thanks for all the help, been tearing my hair out over this and rifling through these forums since I've walked into this house. Seems like every time I google a problem I'm having the first link lands me here with a solution!
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That makes more sense. In that case, I would go with the larger 2.0 CF softener to accommodate the higher-flow tub and potential increased water usage as your children turn into teens and use more water. Regardless of where you ultimately decide to purchase, you want to ensure your softener meets some specific criteria: High quality American or German made resin. This will provide a tight size distribution for optimal flow within the resin, longer resin life, and more reliable, predicable water softening. Since you have CITY WATER: 10% crosslinked resin. The oxidizers that city water treatment plants use, such as chlorine or chloramine, are harmful to softener resins. Higher crosslinking will resist chemical attack longer. Top basket. This serves two purposes. It sets up a proper water distribution during normal operation and prevents resin loss during backwash. Gravel underbed. The gravel underbed is there to set up proper flow patterns, improve backwash, keep the bottom basket in place, prevent basket failure, and prevent channeling. Many softener sales companies like to leave this out or sell softeners with a vortex system instead. Vortex systems weigh less than gravel so they cost less to ship. In addition, they are a more expensive item that adds profit for the softener salesperson, but provides no additional benefit to the homeowner . It simply adds another piece of equipment that can break. Fleck or Clack valves. These set the industry standard. Be aware that you will not be able to purchase Clack valves online. This is not a problem if you purchase locally. The valve should have the capability to regen based on water usage. Install the softener with a three-valve bypass. This will make it much easier if you ever need to remove the softener for repairs or wish to take it with you when you move. Use full-port, quarter-turn valves. Noryl bypass. Most softeners are available with either Noryl or stainless bypass valves. Both are good valves, but the noryl tends to be more reliable when not used for long periods of time. This is a redundancy if you install with a proper three-valve bypass. I prefer a bit of redundancy but it is your call. Brine tank: Although either round or square will work, round brine tanks are more structurally sound and will not deform like a square tank will. Since you need a softener 1.5 cuft or larger, a square tank will most likely be too small. If you live in a cold climate, ensure equipment is stored in a climate-controlled environment. Frozen softener resin is damaged softener resin. Purchase a Hach 5-B test kit. You will want to periodically check to ensure your softener is working correctly and this kit is your best option.
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rayb1
Original Author
11 years ago
One company recommended the following softener and also a 4 stage reverse osmosis system. What are your thoughts. Thank you.

32.3 grain/gallon of hardness
Tank size: 10" x 54"
Media cu. ft.: 1.5
Line size: 3/4"-11/4"
Valvehead Metered: DTV-M
Installed Unit size: 10" x 63" with >>
Brine Tank: 16" x 34"
Salt capacity 300 lbs
Water flow (GPM): 10
Backwash (GPM): 4.
rayb1
Original Author
11 years ago
Updated Well water test results:

Total Coliform and E.Coli: absent
Nitrite+nitrate: 1.14 mg/L
Lead total: Arsenic total: Chromium total: Specific Conductance: 1020 uMHO/CM
pH, liquid: 6.68 STD unit
Alkalinity, Total: 427 MG/L
Solids, Total Dissolved: 565 MG/L
Hardness, Total: 552 MG/L
Chloride: 67.2 MG/L
Sulfate: 40.4 MG/L
32.3 grains/gallon of hardness

Local Kinetico recommendations:

The kinetico 2060s water softener model
Aquakinetic drinking water system A200 (reverse osmosis)
rayb1
Original Author
11 years ago
Our builder has already installed a water softener system for our home. May you please evaluate the parameters to see if it's sufficient for our home? Thank you in advance.

Our data:
Updated Well water test results:
Total Coliform and E.Coli: absent
Nitrite+nitrate: 1.14 mg/L
Lead total: Arsenic total: Chromium total: Specific Conductance: 1020 uMHO/CM
pH, liquid: 6.68 STD unit
Alkalinity, Total: 427 MG/L
Solids, Total Dissolved: 565 MG/L
Hardness, Total: 552 MG/L
Chloride: 67.2 MG/L
Sulfate: 40.4 MG/L
32.3 grains/gallon of hardness

Installed water softener:

Capacity: (grains/lbs, NaCL): max 32,000 @15.0; Medium: 28,400 @ 9.0; Minimum 23,600 @ 6.0
Amount of Media (Cu. Ft.): 1.0
Maximum water hardness (gpg): 75
Maximum Iron (PPM): 1.0
Minimum pH Required: 7.0
Peak Flow Rate (GPM @ O-PSI): 17.1@ 15.0
Continuous Flow Rate (GPM @ P-PSI): 5.0@2.8
Water Pressure Range (PSI): 25-100
Water Temp(F): 33-100
Electrical Requirements (volts-hertz): 110-50/60
Pipe Size: 1"
Total dimensions Media tank: 10"W x 52"H; Brine Tank 18"W x 33"H.
Brine Refill: Min: 5:51, GAL: 3
Backwash: 8; 22
Brine & Rinse: 60; 24
Rapid Rinse: 4; 11
Total: 78; 60
User
11 years ago
Softener you listed is far too small in resin capacity which will mean very frequent regenerations wasting water, salt, and a much shorter service life for the softener. Also too low an SFR for your plumbing requirements. A 1 cu ft softener has an SFR of 9 gpm based on the resin volume. More than likely the control valve doe not match up to your 1" plumbing cause it might be a 3/4" valve.

A textbook example of why people should avoid builders and plumber when they need a water treatment professional. Your builder is either stupid or ignorant regarding water treatment or just plain greedy and wouldn't miss an opportunity to increase his/her profit.

I'd have your builder remove that softener and give you a full refund.

I'd also take a long hard look around your house to see where this builder cut corners and/or under specified fixtures and appliances and used lesser quality items where you wouldn't see them.
rayb1
Original Author
11 years ago
Thank you Justalurker. What is your opinion with this system we are considering installing below. Thank you very much for your time.

Minimum/max operating pressure: 103.4-861.9 kPa (15-125 psi)
Max working pressure: 861.9 kPa (125 psi)
Minimum/Maximum Operating Temp: 2*C-49*C (35*F-120*F)
Service flow rate at 15 psi (or less) drop gpm: 11.6 (43.5 L/min)
Resin per tank, cu.ft.: 0.7
Capacity per cycle, grains: 12,481; 15,817
Grains exchanged per pound of salt: 4623; 3954
Salt used per cycle, lbs: 2.7; 4.0
Max flow rate to drain during regeneration, gpm: 2.5 (9.5 L/min.
User
11 years ago
Your latest considered softener sounds like a Kinetico 2060S.
rayb1
Original Author
11 years ago
Yes it is the Kinetico 2060S.
rayb1
Original Author
11 years ago
Justaluker, I can't find a local water treatment professional who is willing to install in a residential. They are telling me to call Culligan in this area, but Culligan didn't come out to test our water. Told my DH that they have installed in that neighborhood prior. Kinetico did test our water. Do you have a fleck valve model that might work also? I don't mind going with the Kinetico if it will help.
Thank you again.
User
11 years ago
I like the design but Kinetico seems to under size softeners and have them regenerate more often than an industry standard softener while not offering the SFR the installation requires. Regardless of what Kinetico claims resin manufacturers spec .7 cu ft of resin at 7 gpm SFR not at 15 gpm as Kinetico claims in a correctly sized resin tank. IMO the resin manufacturers know more about resin and its capabilities than Kinetico does

Kinetico makes a quality product that is expensive and completely proprietary. You'll be completely dependent on your Kinetico dealer for parts, service, and warranty. If you have a good dealer then you're set but if not you'll be very unhappy and will have spent a lot of money to learn a hard lesson.

With real estate it's location, location, location. With water treatment it's dealer, dealer, dealer.

Good luck.

Help with water Softener Selection

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