I haven't had a chance to get back here for a read in awhile. But no, I don't see many dead cats in the road. Sure, I see them every so often but not the way I have when I've travelled in more southern states. I wonder if that's a function of effective spay/neuter programs in our community or the cold winters that "cull the spring crop"; I don't know. The only other kitty in our immediate neighborhood appears only occasionally in our yard and all the cats seem to know each other and get along OK.

I have had a cat hit by a car. She had been abandonned by a seasonal neighbor and we took her in. She had established territory across the road and her luck ran out one day.

I know my neighbors very well. Well enough that if they were particularly irritated by the cats they'd surely say something to us. I've suspected for a some time now that the size of our lot and the rural nature of our neighborhood tends to minimize the cats desire to wander (why would they want to?). It's unfair to paste the "selfish" label on us just because you happen to think our cats should be restricted to the inside of our home.

Socio-economic forces, Cynthia? I'm not quite sure exactly what that means... please tell me it's not what my gut reaction was!

From dictionary.com:

selfish: devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

Sorry, but letting your cat roam outside IS selfish, because you are not considering the needs of others. How many times do people need to list the ways in which roaming cats affect other people? The willful blindness of some people in this thread is mindboggling. I'm sure you're all very nice people. You don't kick puppies or drown babies or anything severely antisocial, but letting your cat roam is selfish, poor etiquette, inappropriate behavior, bad for your cat, what have you, in the eyes of many of the people of this forum, and in the general populace. We keep giving you reason after reason for why this is so. I'm going to have to throw you in the same category as those parents who let their kids run around in restaurants, I guess -- you think you're doing the right thing as far as raising your "children", and you'll have to live with the results.

"I have the right to do anything to your cat once it invades my property line."

better check your state's cruelty laws on that one.

A homeowner in our neighborhood thought the same thing.

When he shot a stray dog with a hunting bow, he was convicted of cruelty.

(The dog, a purebred Corgi, recovered.)

So your "take" on the issue is the only "right" one, Riv.? it sure seems that way. I've never insisted that you let your cats outdoors; nor have I insulted you or your beliefs. I have only esplained why we allow our's outdoors.

We have several dictionaries in house, including the definition of "selfish" was insulting and mean. If none of my neighbors have a problem with our choice to let our cats outdoors and there is no law prohibiting it, how can you, in your neighborhood, make any such assessment of my personal character, let alone impose your choice/belief on another? It's an unfair judgment based on that which YOU believe to be right and proper behavior. Nothing more.

There will always be differences of opinions with respect to this issue. I understand and accept that. I have no trouble explaining why I believe what I do and why I make the decisions I do with respect to our pets. I have done that time and again on this forum and will continue to do so.

. If none of my neighbors have a problem with our choice to let our cats outdoors

But that's the problem right there. How do you KNOW that your neighbors don't have a problem with it? Have you taken a poll of all your neighbors and asked them? You're making an assumption that because none of them have come up and complained to you about it that they don't have a problem about it. I have just as much right to think your selfish as you have to think you're not selfish.

So your "take" on the issue is the only "right" one, Riv.?

No, I'm just saying that my "take" on it is the majority's take on it. And that you shouldn't be surprised that you get society's censure for letting your cat roam. Just because I think the fact that you let cat roam free is selfish doesn't mean that you have to hold the same view.

I understand and accept that. I have no trouble explaining why I believe what I do and why I make the decisions I do with respect to our pets.

I still have yet to see a good reason why the rights of cats to roam trump the rights of the people surrounding them.

As a matter of fact, I have spoken to my neighbors (speak to them nearly every single day), why would you suppose I hadn't? I have lived here for 16 years. We have keys to the homes of several of our neighbors, and they have keys to our home. We're on speed dial.

Your inclusion of the definition of "selfish" was needlessly insulting and meanspirited.

Fine, I'm a big meanie :)

Regardless, I still have yet to see a good reason why the rights of cats to roam trump the rights of the people surrounding them.

No, you were insulting and meanspirited.

And you're continuing to use that as an excuse to avoid the question...

I think there are good pet owners and there are bad pet owners. (notice I used the term pet, because it applies to both cats and dogs)

Pets can be let outdoors, if they are confined to their property. There are plenty of things an pet owner can do to let their pet outdoors without letting them roam unprotected.

My good friend Suzy has constructed a wonderful screened in area of her back yard that lets her cats be outside - yet keeping them contained. The cats can walk on the grass and climb a wonderful climbing contraption that has been built for them. Her cats are safe and very happy.

My good friend Rosa - lets her cat go outside on a leash. Her cat is safe also.

My best friend Diane is severly allergic to cats and is subjected to rude neighbors with roaming cats that poop and pee in her landscaping right next to her front door. She has to wear a mask to use her front door. And there is a huge feral cat colony that is growing in her neighborhood. She is contemplating moving because of the cat problem in her neighborhood.

Or let me phrase it this way: What would you do if one of your neighbors DID complain? What would you do?

I have answered your questions.

And I haven't been insulting, demeaning, or meanspirited.

How exactly have I been insulting? By quoting the dictionary? If anyone's been insulting here, it's been you, by calling me meanspirited, insulting, etc.

Frankly, I don't understand why including the definition of selfish is "meanspirited" and "insulting" -- I went on in the paragraph after the definition to explain further why I thought cat owners who let their cats roam was selfish. If quoting the dictionary is somehow the height of rudeness and "meanspirited", then please forgive me, I guess. As a former librarian, I'm used to pulling out the dictionary and using it to define definitions during debates. You were the one that was objecting to being "labeled" with the term -- I was merely trying to clarify what you were being "labeled" with.

I've just reread every single one of your responses in this thread, and I don't see where you say what you would do if one of your neighbors complained. Perhaps you can point me to that post. I sincerely hope you're not just going to pull a "You've insulted me" and run from this discussion now.

Chelone,

I would also like to know what you would do if a neighbor complained. I know what my neighbor did. They became more sly about letting their cat out while pretending that they cared what I thought.

You said that you don't impose your beliefs on people with indoor cats, but indoor cats don't bother the neighbors. They are on their own property. When I started this thread I was attempting to find out why some cat owners feel they have a right to impose their pets on neighbors.

And you really can't assume that your neighbors aren't bothered. Some people avoid confrontation at all costs. Other people just see certain things happening so much that they think (probably rightly so) that they won't get anywhere so why even try. It doesn't mean that inside they aren't thinking that you're an inconsiderate person. Maybe they aren't, but you'll never really know.

You also mentioned that it's legal to let your cat roam. In my area it isn't legal, but the law is hard to enforce so they do it anyway. I think the legality is a moot point, though. Many things that are legal are still inconsiderate, rude, and annoying.

Playing devil's advocate here...

Based on the tone of this thread (and recent similar ones), I doubt anyone who AGREES with the concept of "my cats roam the neighborhood and it's not my responsibility" are going to even dare and ATTEMPT to justify themselves-- they're going to be bashed no matter HOW they try to explain it, so it's better to remain silent.

We keep our cats inside as we live in the second floor apartment. The last house we lived in we had an indoor cat and she used to be a roamer before we got her. Once she was kept in for awhile she never did want to go out again.

But I have had outside cats as well. I had the neighbour next door tell me once that she was going to spray my cat with water if she caught it in her flower bed and I said "go for it!" And she did - the cat never went back to her flower bed again she said.

It's a debate that will never be settled in my opinion. Having had indoor and outdoor cats, I can honestly say the outdoor ones lasted just as long as the indoor. One for 16 years and one for almost 19. I do think pet owners have to be responsible for thei pets no matter what pet it is. If your cat is pooping in your neighbours yard, your neighbour shouldn't have to put up with it!

Well, the issue is not just the 'your cat is impinging on my life/garden/allergies/common good neighbor sense'. The thing that really heats this whole thing up is that if dogs were doing the same things, there would be a totally different thread. Let's see....

>My dog is crapping on your lawn and/or in your garden.
>My dog climbs into your yard and kills your cat/fish/frog/guinea pig/hamster.
>Your cat roams into MY yard and my dog kills your cat.
>My dog knocks over your trashcans and drags everything all over your driveway regularly.
>My dog is territorial, decides your house is his/her territory, and pees all over your garden/porch/front door.
>My dog discovers that your dog or cat hangs out in a certain window and visits daily, resulting in your pet going ballistic.
>My dog scares the carp out of you, or your kids, even though he/she is just a total sweetheart.

If any ONE of these things were happening, most would not stand for it. If two or more were going on, I would expect the local animal or police authorities to be at my door.

I would really, really like just ONE roaming cat owner to honestly tell me that there is not a double standard going on, and how they can justify any argument on why their cat is exempted.

P.S....I scooped out my usual average of 3 pieces of cat poop out of my garden today. Thank you.

The double standard definitely exists. Like many areas, ours had a dog leash law several years ago but not one for cats. They finally changed it to include cats, but I'm sure there are places where there is still a discrepancy.

It really used to tick me off that I had a list of rules to obey regarding my dogs, such as; clean up waste off my own property, carry a bag on walks and pick up waste, if a dog was allowed to bark for more than ten minutes a fine could be imposed, and dogs must be confined or on leash at all times.

At the same time, there was not a single law preventing cat owners from letting their pets roam all over my property. Really, according to the rule about cleaning my own property, it made me responsible to clean up the mess the neighbors' cats left.

Playing devil's advocate here...
Based on the tone of this thread (and recent similar ones), I doubt anyone who AGREES with the concept of "my cats roam the neighborhood and it's not my responsibility" are going to even dare and ATTEMPT to justify themselves-- they're going to be bashed no matter HOW they try to explain it, so it's better to remain silent.

I disagree...they are avoiding answering rivka's question because they don't want to come right out and say "I don't care about how my neighbors feel" or "If my neighbors complained about my roaming cat I would do absolutely nothing to remedy the situation." Makes them look like jerks. We're still waiting for your answers, free-range cat folks...

This argument is never going to end as long as there aren't any outdoor cat laws.

I personally would never let my cat (I don't own one now but I have) outdoors. I'm in a crowded metro area. I've sprayed neighbor cats with vinegar when they've climbed into my patio and tried digging my plants. I now spray the top of the patio with pepper solution due to cats, raccoons and possums (yes possums can climb walls!)

But here's something to think about for those of you who live in a metro area and let your cats loose:

I see dead cats on the street from time to time. I'm sure those cats belonged to someone. I DO NOT want to run over a cat. How do think people feel when they accidentally run over and kill a cat? It's probably horrible.

Truthfully, I don't know how I would respond if any of the neighbors complained. It's never happened here (in 16 years), it never happened when I lived "in town" and my grey cat was always on the block, it never happened in the neighborhood where I grew up. Maybe times were different. Maybe the fact that I've always known my neighbors and worked to establish good relations with them stands for something. I can't really say.

I think speculation on that topic is sort of pointless right now. None of you who favor indoor only cats are even willing to listen to the opinions expressed by those of who don't happen to share your views, something driven home quite pointedly by the repeated characterizations voiced in several previous posts. I suspect our opinions will be, at best only "skimmed" while you load for the next volley of ridicule and the myriad "what if" scenarios.

It would behoove some of you to reread your posts carefully; read some of the characterizations and consider what you have written. Quoting a dictionary to make your point is just about as insulting as it gets, at least from my standpoint. I'm sure there are others too offended by much of what they've read to waste their time trying to share their views. You don't really want our views, anyway. What you want is another platform to espouse your personal opinions of the subject.

The original post was pretty clear. I answered it from my personal standpoint, based on my personal experience. I don't expect that many of you will agree. My opinion on the issue is different from your's, and I've never told any of you that you may not hold your own views on the subject, nor have I slammed any of you for holding them. Think about that.

I think it's irresponsible to let cats roam free, unless you have a lot of acreage. Plus, having to worry about cars, mean people, poison, etc. every time they go out is not a good situation. So all of our kitties are indoors, which is not a problem because most of them are rescued former strays and want nothing to do with "the great outdoors". We do have two who like to go outside with us when we garden, but they stay closeby and come back inside with us when we are done.

Our neighbors' cats come and go as they please. They occasionally kill birds and other critters on our property, and also pee and poop where they want. The neighbors have no intention of keeping them indoors, and we deal with it as best we can. But it would be really nice if there were laws to force people to either supervise their cats, or keep them indoors.

Well....this is interesting. The folks who let their cats roam freely want to be considered as nice, caring, loving and responsible people, but NEVER selfish! So let's see, if I let my CHILD come onto your property w/o permission, and pull up your favorite plants, beat your cat with a stick and spill his/her sticky drink and bubblegum all over your patio or driveway, and then come back tomorrow and do it over again, you have no right to say or do anything, correct???

While you may not like to be called selfish, that is exactly what you are!! If you were a nice, caring, loving and responsible cat owner, you would NEVER allow your cat to roam outdoors. And because I don't complain, doesn't mean I am alright with it....not by a long shot!! I am fed up with your cat living in my garden, and yes, that IS what it does. You will NEVER see it in its own yard! It kills birds and mice and leaves them in MY yard, for ME to dispose of. It has been locked in the other neighbor's garage many times and wakes me up almost every night howling and fighting underneath my window!! If that is not selfish, then, pray tell, what is?????

My two cats are indoor cats, the oldest being 19 today. I truly believe he would NOT be here today, had he been an outdoor cat. I love my cats, plain and simple. They live inside the house, with me, not wandering around outside, annoying the neighbors!:>)

Things can still happen to a cat indoors. It may be safer, but there are still dangers. My indoor cat died from crystals. We were not making much money, and had to get food for him. Went and got a cheap brand of food. At the time I had no clue it could happen or would have never bought it. I was sad when he died, but I will never compare a pet to one of my children.

I agree with chelone. It is apparant that the people here against letting cats outside have very strong opinions, and are getting nasty. I will let my cat outside for fresh air and sunshine. I do not abuse her nor do I starve her. She is in a loving home.

Our neighbors' cats come and go as they please. They occasionally kill birds and other critters on our property, and also pee and poop where they want. The neighbors have no intention of keeping them indoors, and we deal with it as best we can. But it would be really nice if there were laws to force people to either supervise their cats, or keep them indoors.

Actually, it IS against the law in my city to let your cat/dog run free. However, law enforcement officers have better things to do than ticket errant cat owners. It's not a high priority here. On the other hand, if someone goes off the deep end and poisons a neighbor's cat out of frustration and anger, not much happens to them, either. It's seen as an unfortunate side-effect of letting your cat roam. I'm not capable of killing an animal, I just wish folks would be considerate of their neighbors. And Chelone, we have listened to your opinion, repeatedly. The point is, some of us sink a lot of money into our yards and really enjoy the birds and other wildlife that frequent them. If we don't want the neighbor's cat in our yard killing birds and other critters, crapping and causing other disturbances, what do you suggest? Put away the feeders, quit gardening and find some other hobby just because you think your cat has a right to amuse himself in our yards? Thats's b.s.! Should a cat's "desires" really come before one's neighbor's enjoyment of their own property?

I don't doubt the "outdoor cat" people who say their neighbors have never complained... Most decent people, for the sake of being neighborly, aren't going to complain about someone's roaming cat, if the relationship with that neighbor is otherwise a good one... Most people avoid conflict if at all possible, and it can be EXTREMELY hard to criticize people with whom you otherwise get along well... you want to stay good neighbors, so you shut up and put up with it for the sake of the relationship.

A story to share... when I was growing up, we had neighbors that lived very close to us, and my parents got along REALLY well with them-- got together for dinners on a regular basis, looked after each others' houses when one family was away, etc., etc.

Well, even though we had less than an acre of land, my dad loved keeping a small hobby farm, which included chickens... and one year, for whatever reason, he decided to get a rooster.

The rooster never bothered us much, but our neighbors must have been light sleepers... we had the rooster for quite a while, when one morning before dawn, the phone rang-- it was the neighbor, leaving an extremely nasty message on the answering machine-- something along the lines of "cock-a-doodle-doo, motherf------"

Needless to say, it was an annoyance that had definitely bubbled over. Fortunately the relationship was repaired in time, but there for a while, things got ugly.

Moral of the story-- don't assume, just because you're not being told there's a problem, that there's not a problem. Even if you ask them outright, don't expect that you're neccessarily getting and honest answer, either-- for some, it can be easier to flat-out lie than it is to risk an argument.

(Of course, there's the other side of the coin-- if something is bothering a person, they have no one to blame but themselves if they don't at least TRY to address it with the offending party. BUT, two wrongs don't make a right, either-- "they haven't said anything" is still no excuse for allowing your pets to intrude your neighbors' property in the first place.)

"but I will never compare a pet to one of my children."

That is an uncalled for, nasty retort!! I did not mean to infer that I was making a *comparison*.....just a point! I am considered *intolerant* by some on this thread, because I believe you and others should not let your cats wander the neighborhood!! I was just thinking how *intolerant* people such as yourself would be if it was a child doing damage to your property. While most of the people I know would never actually complain to anyone about their cats, I am quite certain the *outsiders* would surely complain if it was a child instead of a cat! How is it OK for a cat to destroy someone's property and wake them out of a deep sleep, and why should we put up with it?? If you don't want to be called *selfish*, then start thinking of others for a change!

Chelone, Paige, and all you cat owners that let your cats outside. Do what you want with your cats. I believe you love your cats, and these people that are getting personal and ugly. Forget them. The ones that are attacking your eco-economic state, what's that? Never give advice, my father once told me, fools don't heed it and wise men don't need it. Bottom line. You are never going to change each other's minds so why bother?

You are never going to change each other's minds so why bother?

Why bother, you ask? Because it's people just like chelone and paige who live right next to the rest of us...I think maybe some of us are feeling that if we could convince some people to stop being so selfish, maybe we could start convincing our neighbors. I dunno. It's got to start somewhere.

these people that are getting personal and ugly.

I've seen uglyness on both sides, frankly. I'm including myself in there. Everyone feels strongly about this, obviously.

For me it comes down to this: I live my life in such a way as to minimize my impact on the Earth, and those around myself. I ask myself daily, "How will this action affect others?" I'm not alway successful...but I try. Obviously others don't live that way. That saddens me -- the world could stand to have a little more empathy in it, frankly.

This issue, on a microscopic level, displays where our world is headed on a global level, in my opinion. If some people can't bother themselves to care about the fact that their cat is pooping in their neighbor's lawn, then it doesn't surprise me that apathy and selfishness are the keywords when it comes to larger, more global issues. You may think that's a silly parallel to be drawn -- I personally don't think so. The way a person lives the small parts of their life is just as important as how they live the big parts.

I think what really rubs me raw about this is that the people who are letting their cats roam free seem to be saying is that they and their cats are more important than the rest of us. Who cares about us? Why shouldn't we have to clean up after their cat? Who cares about our lawns? We're not as important as their cats, after all.

I think this thread has long passed the point where anyone is really listening to others.

Is the "Animal Debates" forum the new place to stand on a soapbox?

I have long ceased to care what the cat roamer people do w/ their so called beloved pets, but they just aren't getting the point. And I am a huge cat lover who has seven inside and still the two foster kittens who will never see the outdoors. To adopt these kittens, an agreement must be signed to keep them forever indoors.. Same w/ our HS...People need to be educated. And as I said very few cats are ever seen on my three mile daily walks. I would be nuts if I let my cats out, and would be the most unpopular person in town If I was outside calling and they didn't come home, I'd have to comb the neighborhood. I did that one snowy night when I had company and then couldn't find one of my cats. I was out till 3 AM and then she emerged from the cupboard where she had been sleeping for 6 hours!!!Decades ago I did let my cat out and altho we all did then, he only was sick once in his 21 years and that was from another cat 's bite..It creeps me out that I wasn't a better neighbor because there were a lot of little kids in that neighborhood w/ a lot of sandboxes and that was before they had covers..My cats get a lot of attention and never try to leave and my neighbors don't have to put up w/ them..And my National Backyard Wildlife Habitat number 7000 keeps on being just that.

Some of us non cat owners do not get upset. I freq. have neighbor cats on my property. It doesn't bother me, I have never complained. They are not breaking the law.

I agree. I have a rabbit and the two of us like to play outside but lately the outdoor cat fetish is getting to be too much. They see us in the backyard and they have no fear. The cats actually try to stalk my rabbit to catch him. Needless to say he's terrified to go outside in our own backyard!!! First they poop all over the lawn and NOW they have scared my rabbit to the point that he doesn't like to play around in the grass in warm weather. That's not fair but there's nothing we can do about it. We're tried everything.

It is against the law in many places to let your cat roam. Check with local animal control to verify the laws in your areas.

And responsible kitty owners should have something like this:

http://www.purrfectfence.com/

"Some of us non cat owners do not get upset. I freq. have neighbor cats on my property. It doesn't bother me, I have never complained. They are not breaking the law"

Well, yes they ARE breaking the law in many areas. I wonder, would you have the same opinion regarding roaming cats, if you couldn't take a walk in your garden w/o stepping in cat poo, or sit on your porch w/o smelling cat urine?? What about MY cats, who live indoors with me??? Are they ENTITLED to be stressed out when the neighbor's roaming cats sit on my porch and taunt them every night? I am puzzled as to why the *outdoor* crowd seem to think they have more rights than the rest of us!! Oh but we mustn't call them selfish.....that would make us *meanies*!!

I have never believed that my farm is my land and no living thing has the right to walk on it without my permission. I see that sentiment expressed a lot and I absolutely hate it. That cat, raccoon, squirrel, child, whatever annoys me. It has no right on my land. Oh, did we say that about the Indians a couple hundred years ago? This is my land they have to go. I just saw a post from an angry land owner who had raccoons drinking out of his birdbath. Of all the nerve! Drinking his water on his land. No wonder people here are up in arms because a cat pooped on their land.

Personally I hate to see cats running loose not because of whose precious land they may be walking on, but because they usually come to a bad end on a street.

Please do sanitize your yards of all cat poop. Put out lots of poison so rodents donÂt come on your land. Be sure to use lots and lots of poison around your birdfeeders and in your sylvan glens because that is a buffet for mice/rats. Oh, maybe you donÂt have a lot of rodents in your neighborhood. I wonder why? Somebody go look up the definition of petty.

Well, you live on a farm, don't you? You're surrounded by lots of wildlife, and I dare say, a lot of pooping animals. I'm not. I live in suburbia. I spend a lot of time and effort on my planter boxes and my roses. I don't appreciate having my neighbors' cats digging them up and pooping on them. You live in a very different setting, so maybe you should try considering that before just brushing off our concerns as petty.

How about this story - about 4 years ago our townhouse complex was termite-tented. We were all given our instructions of what to do and what was going to happen.

So the morning we had to vacate the house, I saw our maintenance guy outside and he told me to go ahead and leave my door open because my house was next for a walkthough inspection before tenting. So I left my front door ajar and went to work.

About an hour later, at work I received a phone call from the maintenance man. "You forgot your cat!"

Um no, I don't have a cat, I told him. Apparently a neighbor's cat went into my home and was found and removed by the crew just before tenting for fumigation.

Lucky he was found and didn't go hiding in the house somewhere or he'd be dead and I would have had a very unpleasant homecoming. The neighbor knew we were being fumigated, she had to leave like everyone else. What was she thinking? The cat spent the day in the maintenance man's truck until the owner got off work and picked him up.

UUUUMMMMMM Bean Counter,,,Did you ACTUALLY SAY THAT????"IT HAS NO RIGHT ON MY LAND. OH, DID WE SAY THAT ABOUT THE INDIANS A COUPLE OF HUNDRED YEARS AGO, THIS IS MY LAND AND THEY HAVE TO GO"??????? As a Native American (Cheorkee) let me say this.....WE allowed YOU on OUR land and look what you did! You even had the balls to say you did not complain when WE crossed YOUR land! Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha This about explains it folks!
Lisa

Lisa, I don't think you understood Bean Counter at all. If I'm not mistaken, he/she was pointing out that the land belongs to no one and to everyone. Bean Counter, please forgive me if I have misunderstood you.

Donna, Well looking at it again, maybe you are right. I think it's the one statement that got my "feathers ruffeled" I agree with most of the post
actualluy 90% of it. I just want to remind, cats are NOT native preditors in which native critters have natural defences against. Kinda like an invasive weeds that has made it's way to the area. Of course (as I have stated, wild and native things are welcome here) In fact I plant things FOR them.
Lisa

In a perfect world, no kitty would be homeless. Everyone would have a perfect indoor place for their cat to live out its life. Where is that perfect world?

Lisa, trying to get past youÂre screaming and understand what you are saying. I am a person of Native American heritage; I think you have my meaning exactly backward. Calm down and reread.

Yes I do live on a farm and maybe that is why I've come to be very tolerant of various critters that are trying to survive on what little land there is left for them. Cat poop has never, ever been a world threatening crises for me.

Let me just mention this one odd thing. Check out the soil and compost forum. They compost animal waste, litter box waste, and even dead pets. Can you see the VAST difference between your intolerance and their theories? They believe if life gives them lemons, make lemonade. If life give you cat poop, make better soil.

For goodness sake what's next? Birds can't fly over your yard? They poop too. Why are people who can't stand cats on this forum? You need a cat free forum so you can vilify the poor pathetic creatures and no one there will advocate for them. No pet lover would ever start a cat hate rant like this one. IÂll stand by my statements. A tiny inconvenience for a person, life and death for a poor cat. If that isnÂt petty, please tell me what is?

I don't think anyone is vilifyiny cats. I think it is the cat owners that are wrong. I saw one comment that cats can't be kept on leashes like dogs. Why not? What if I were living next door to someone and blaring my music really loud? So loud that you couldn't even hear your tv. Isn't that pretty inconsiderate of me? It is the same thing with people's cats. They don't need to be kept inside all the time, just contained when they are outside so that they don't infringe on other people's rights.

"For goodness sake what's next? Birds can't fly over your yard? They poop too."

Birds, raccoons and squirrels are wild animals. Pet cats are not. That is the difference.

We all need to be just a little bit more considerate of others. Just because you love your cat doen't mean that I do. I am not a cat hater, I just don't think they belong anywhere but in your yard.

I do lots of gardening - - I spend most of my free time in my gardens "in season." I've only ever found one cat poop in a flower bed, and I left it for compost as bean counter noted. I know my cats use my pachysandra for the most part, probably because it gives them a little more "privacy" or something. But they don't seem to want to poop in flower beds. Perhaps in neighborhoods where there is simply nowhere else to poop this could happen, but it doesn't seem to be a problem here. And yes, I spend time in neighbors gardens as well, and have not seen/heard of my cats pooping there either! Now my cats did get the mistaken impression that the crushed stone walkway I put in was a special order litter box just for them, but I just put down some of that mothball-mix powder you can get at any garden store and they never did it again. Big deal.

As to cats ripping out plants, I've simply never seen that happen. Dogs, yes, but not cats. If plants are being ripped out it is much more likely that a skunk or some other wild critter is the culprit. The only plants my cats were ever interested in were the catmint plants I misguidedly planted when I first started gardening.

I guess I'm just curious about all of these garden-spoiling cats. Around here it's rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks and skunks we gardeners curse! And my cats tend to keep most of those at bay . . . (well, not the skunks, of course).

You know, I think it's interesting that with all of the terrible things going on in the world today, on this forum you are vilified if you let your cat out. You are immoral and inconsiderate and couldn't possibly love your pet. Well, sorry folks, none of these things are true about me. If they were I wouldn't have many friends, yet I do. I wouldn't get along well with my neighbors, yet I do (except one, of course!). You may think my choice to let my cats out is inconsiderate (I disagree), but that does not mean I am an inconsiderate person as a whole. I think passing sweeping judgments is an inconsiderate course of action, but that doesn't mean I think everyone who has done so here is wholly inconsiderate.

I know several names from these threads from other forums and I never had a problem with any of them until they found out my cat goes out. With that I am now considered selfish, inconsiderate and lacking love for my pets. Interesting that I should be judged on the basis of one choice that you happen to disagree with (and which, let me reemphasize, is PERFECTLY LEGAL where I live).

I guess I'm just curious about all of these garden-spoiling cats. Around here it's rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks and skunks we gardeners curse!

Just because you don't have any experience of it happening, doesn't mean it doesn't happen to the rest of us. I live in the heart of an urban area. I've never even seen a rabbit, squirrel, chipmunk, or skunk in the surrounding area (maybe they're around -- I've just never seen them). I see cats on a daily basis. And I see them poop in my planter box on a nearly daily basis. And yes, I sat there and saw one of them rip out freshly planted flowers.

It's lovely for you that it's never happened. It's not true for the rest of us.

and which, let me reemphasize, is PERFECTLY LEGAL where I live

It may be legal. Doesn't make it right.

Cats LOVE freshly turned ground, it is like a giant litter box for them, my mom couldn't keep her petunias because her cats kept digging them up, they also love her bird of paradise, and it is in the house, it is just a cats nature.
I adopted a cat that was born in the wild, I tried to keep him inside, he would not so I started leaving him out, my neighbor came over one day and told me he had laid on one of her hostas and killed it, I immediatly brought him in, he cried and cried, about 2 months later I was staying at my moms and my husband accidently let him out, well he is not one of those people who will run a cat down to bring it back in, the next day when I got home he was curled up on our porch sick, it was Sunday and we live in a small area with no emergency vets, I took him in first thing Monday morning and he died in my arms in the waiting room. Poisoned.
My 9 year old son (it was his cat) made me promise before I took him to bring him home no matter what.
so here I am out in the yard with 2 bawling children (and myself) trying to bury Chrys, and of course all my neighbors are right there saying how awful it was, meanwhile the whole time in the back of my mind all I could think of was that one of those neighbors was responsible for this even though it was really our responsibility to keep our cat inside, one day later another neighbor who owned the mom to Chrys and had his brother came over crying, someone had poisoned the brother too, so there I was again burying another cat because she just could not do it. No more outdoor cats for me period.
she has another outdoor cat that kills squirrls all the time, and I am forever going over there and disposing the bodies for her, just yesterday I was in my tulip garden and lo and behold, cat potty. but for some reason I cannot get worked up over it, I of course said a dirty word when I ran into it , but I would never think of doing something to someones pet because of it.
there is about a 50 percent ratio of outside cat owners here, it aggravates me because they do not even try to keep them in (one was trying to go in and the owner just ever so gently pushed her back out and shut the door) when we was trying to do the right thing we got punished anyway.
The main reason I don't mind all the outdoor cats is because we have NO MICE, that is worth it to me, but I will never claim another outdoor stray, if I even get caught feeding one it becomes my problem in the minds of my neighbors (they have to be watching me constantly, I swear!) I have had to haul 10 so far to my moms, I am so glad she has that nice big barn on her farm!

What are (some) cat owners thinking?
After these numerous threads, and the simple question that has never been answered, it is obvious that they just don't care.

After these numerous threads, and the simple question that has never been answered, it is obvious that they just don't care.

Yep.

I live in the suburbs. Today I was out dryland mushing my huskies and they went crazy going after a outdoor cat. the Cat just stood there and wouldn’t leave. I held my dogs back, but it was quite a struggle. The cat just stood there. No harm done but I was pretty annoyed.

In the end, I have to train my dogs better And that’s just life I suppose.

why I really wanted to say is reading this thread made me feel better. I have no one to vent too so reading this was therapeutic somehow. i hate the idea of any pet getting hurt. cats are pretty good at taking care of themselves people i believe are generally good. Coyotes on the other hand....