you made me lol. yes, it's all good. : )

Amen - though the nature of human beings is that there are kind and there are unkind. Not surprisingly this forum is frequented by both. I never cease to be amazed by how worked up people get over a forum full of people they have never met and probably never will meet. Personally I save my energy for other things.

I don't think that either of those threads started out to be unkind. But if you come here as a complete novice who is working with a kitchen size that is not aligned with the current concept of adequate, I think the advice given here, as well intended as it is...can be disheartening or even intimidating.

There is a lot of good advice given here, but it is often presented as if it is a bible, not as if it is a guideline. There are a number of dictums that, while sound, are not absolutes: they are not things I learned in kitchen and bath design courses or books, they are not universal code, rather they are NKBA guidelines/ideals/suggestions--not laws punishable by death.

In many situations its a matter of deciding which guideline is the one that it is least detrimental not to follow. And I understand that if the choice involves something that is really "elective" ---such as an island---the homeowner should be strongly advised against it.

However, a range may work out best with minimal clearance to a sidewall (the minimums do allow for safety and pot handles); a refrigerator may work best with 4" not 15" between it and a wall: (the *manufacturer *specified *minimums Do allow for adequate door opening without binding); a DW may work best without unloading space on both sides or in the "wrong" zone. Many will need to decide which compromise to make, and it often comes off as if there is *no compromising on these things.

One example:
If you have a choice of having some island or peninsula seating *without a 15" overhang, do you nix it completely or do you live with less? Where I didnt have 15" (never have actually) I've done 11" and even the homeowner's 6'3" father sits there...not for a 5 course meal, but for a snack. *Its *better *than *nothing, and if you don't like it, sit at the table. I even did 8" (for appearances) and told the clients they wouldnt be able to sit there, really. Guess where they sit ?

And yet, the advice comes off on this one, if you don't have 15" , *don't *bother.

So, yes, the people who rail against some of this advice come off as snarky and ungrateful sometimes, but it is a reaction, IMO, to advice that sometimes comes off as dictatorial.

Its not our kitchen, and we are giving and getting the advice for free. If I have a paying client who does not want to take my advice, depending on how important that advice is, I may walk away. In here, honestly, its an exchange of ideas, and I don't care much if I offer good advice and its not taken, I am not going to take it personally.

Like the soup "guy" on Seinfeld, there are "kitchen people", who, while probably meaning well, tend to write in a way that translates, on screen, as snarky arrogance. Face to face, they would probably never speak that way (??).

It's important to read and re-read a post before you hit "submit message" to ensure that you are writing in a way that you, personally, would not find offensive if it was a response to a question you posted.

People here are not looking for the answer, they are looking for ideas and options and want to see the choices other people made, which may or may not work for them.

I look at advice from this forum, or anything else on the web, as research - not personal & not necessarily accurate or applicable to my style; I assume others take my advice in the same vein. I then make my decision & get on with my life. The kitchen police are not going to come & arrest me for not conforming to accepted practices or projected resale values - Kitchen Diversity IS a good thing! "So please, kids, chill" is excellent advice.

Hear, hear Antiquesilver and Momj47! There must be something in the cosmos, but there sure seems to be a lot of sore feelings of late on these boards. And then, maybe it's not cosmos at all but rather the stress and strain of a global recession, outrageous unemployment stats, brutal wars and increasing threats of terrorist attacks (both abroad and at home), earthquakes, mudslides, runaway Toyotas and dangerously tainted/infected food supplies -- and that's just for starters. Given all that, and more, coupled with our maddening, sometimes neurotic efforts to try and build/remodel/renew our kitchens and discussing the whole process with others who we cannot see, touch and feel -- well, my oh my, I think we KF TKOs are doing a pretty darn good job! As such, and even though the bulk of my own kitchen reno has long been "completed," I continue to be addicted to this site where most active members freely offer up sage advice mixed in with healthy doses of good will, levity and compassion. Notwithstanding the occasional snarks, spammers and the socially-challenged, nor the range of styles from "modest" and "quirky" kitchens to "magazine" variety, I truly believe there is room for all of us and our respective dreams of what makes a great kitchen our own.

"Many will need to decide which compromise to make, and it often comes off as if there is *no compromising on these things. "

that's true. and many coming here do not have the space and / or the money to do what might even be BEST to do. They have to make do with what they have. and take into consideration their family members and how they live, not those on the forum.

There are super ideas here that I never knew about and wouldn't have learned either without this board. They will make a big difference in my future project(s). Still, there will be many things that others here will probably roll their eyes at... lol! and that's ok. It's where I'll be living, not them.

In the same way that while I can proclaim their new k itchens to be awesome, beautiful etc (and they ARE), they are still not k itchens (or other rooms) that I would want in my house, to use and live with. Not workable for me, not my taste. i love to see the white
k itchens but i don't like white. I don't think I've owned or worn any clothing that is white since HS - and then it was because white b louses were part of our uniform. I stay clear of white sandals, purses and shoes. I don't even like white appliances.

If kitchen diversity ever becomes a negative here, I'm gone. And I think that it is always thought of as positive. There are certainly prevailing trends but I think it's mostly people who don't have a strong vision or concept to start with that feel pressured into needing to conform to whatever people are suggesting. Because in the end everyone here is doing just that: suggesting.

Personally, I need these suggestions. I have never had the option of anything larger than 10x10 and when trying to consider how to plan a larger kitchen without losing functionality or aesthetics it comes in handy to discuss it with people who have worked in or designed spaces that are half the size of the house I'm building. Will I ever have a Christopher Peacock-esque grand hall of a kitchen? Nope. But I totally agree that they are often wonderful to look at and can very often teach you something about what does and doesn't work.

I will admit to having snickered at people on here being caught up in the planning or care of a kitchen, but I do appreciate the earnest desire to have a truly wonderful space in your home. And I especially respect and enjoy the outpouring of help that people show here for those who might be losing it, even if sometimes the crisis at hand seems to me less than monumental or even at times trivial (again to me, I get the different folks, different strokes thing).

In concept I like the idea of the 'against the grain' thread, in that I think people should feel free to make bad choices. If you want something and you are willfully choosing to ignore good advice to the contrary, own that decision. However, if you just like to rebel against the air, eh, good luck with that you crazy diamond.

It might make sense to have a note in the newbie thread (if one doesn't exist) that all posts here are recommendations and the YMMV is implied, unless explicitly stated otherwise (ie something is: against code, a fire hazard, breaking international treaties regarding the keeping and treatment of small mammals).

Personally I think that going against the grain (which I really think of more like 'choosing golden oak', 'loving laminate' or 'really wanting bright pink everything', something that is a personal choice that doesn't align with the majority consensus on what is trendy) isn't even discouraged for the most part, unless someone thinks they are being trendy in doing so, or if someone asks for other people's opinions. Because surprise, on a forum that caters to people interested in designing kitchens, their opinions (mine included here) tend to follow the trends in kitchen design. This is how trends work.

And I will freely admit to having declined some of the advice I've solicited. Not to be a rebel, but because I know me and my family better than others. Obviously that's not a knock against anyone on here, and I don't think anyone would take it as such unless I were to flaunt how much better it were than the advice that others generously gave and that I asked for. But I do feel the need to say thank you for advice, even if I'm respectfully declining it.

Maybe I should reread that other thread, but I really didn't see people complaining about advise given or about having rules shoved down their throats. As long as it is, I don't think I'll take the time, but I didn't see it that way at all.

As gibby3000 stated bluntly and I suggested -- there are different views on what against the grain means -- or quirky or mainstream, etc. It not only changes as often as the magazine covers and the new appliance models are released, but it can depend entirely on the space you have to work with and what you need to fit into it.

When I was planning my kitchen, I got the nerve to post the layout as a last minute check. I had a color sketch too, and nearly everyone who looked at it said they would not do the wall of blue floor to ceiling cabinets as a third finish -- two was the max and it would be too busy, etc. I was also told the micro would be better placed near the fridge. There were probably other things. I thought about the comments and I think the placement of my prep sink was finalized then and the placement of the cooktop, which I was most concerned about, got numerous go ahead votes (and I did). The cooktop and the prep sink worked out well, but so did the micro nearer the cooktop and table where we use them and the wall of tall blue cabinets.

Getting contrary views can be frustrating, but it also makes you think about why you are doing what you are doing and double check the alternatives. When you do that and stick to your plan in light of all the pros and cons, you are more likely to have something that works and pleases you. I don't begrudge any of the contrary thoughts, but I think how and why are more important factors. Which is one of the reasons I am fascinated and awed by some of the spaces that are so different from mine.

Wow...I can't believe people really have the nerve to complain about *FREE* advice. If you don't like what you read here, then leave for goodness sake. I am thrilled at what I have learned here and the advice I have been given....especially by Buehl. I took almost all of her suggestions when I designed my kitchen. Had it not been for her or the other very helpful people in this forum I would not have the awesome kitchen I have today! (Well, atleast I think it is awesome and that is all that matters really:)) I didn't have a KD (other than the employees at HD and Lowes that didn't even know as much as I do). For that reason, I was thrilled to get the excellent advice I got here. Never once did I feel like I was being ridiculed for not doing things "this way or that way". I live in a simple 2 story farm house in the midwest. We don't need a kitchen like many of the fancy ones I see here, but they sure are fun to look at. I listened to all of the advice I received and picked out what I needed, what I didn't, what I could afford and what worked best for us. I read this forum often and I have never come across a thread where I felt a person was being harassed for not doing things the "right way". Yes, *they* tell you they proper way to do things, but it is up to the individual to take in the advice given and choose what works best for them. Seriously people, be thankful for this forum and the wonderful contributors here. All that I can figure out is people must really be over sensitive or reading attitude into something where it wasn't intended. The contributors here are just trying to convey to others what makes the a good workable kitchen going by "general" guidelines. What I realized when designing my kitchen is that my kitchen is small enough that I don't need zones, prep sinks, pot fillers or a fancy range. I am ecstatic I have my 15" overhang, my base cabinet drawers, my extra deep cabinets, my microwave shelf, my super single Blanco sink and my range hood (instead of an OTR micro). Those are the things I learned about here that I am sooo grateful for. I wouldn't have any of them if it wasn't for people like Buehl. Heck I wouldn't even have my granite countertops......

Take away from this forum what you need and forget what you don't. It really is that simple. :)

What happened to the 10 or so posts before kristine2009?

I love knowing the "rules of thumb" and kitchen design norms so that I can weigh all of the pros and cons, which is necessary in order to make informed decisions. Then if I still choose to break a norm I know I am doing so for a reason(s) that makes sense to me and my family. Information is empowering.

When I break a suggested norm (and I have more than once) I don't mean to offend anyone that feels that it is important to follow them closely. I think some of us are more renegades at heart and willing to take risks that others may not feel comfortable with. Neither approach is best. We are individuals and as such we need to follow our own gut feelings when making these costly, big deal decisions. That's how we end up with kitchens that make our hearts sing. And you don't have to have a huge, expensive kitchen to make your heart sing. You just need to have one that works for you and your family and reflects who you are.

I get it. I mean I understand the point of this thread. But I'll throw in a counterexample.

My own hobby horse, since it's one of the main reasons for my total redesign, is the distance from the stove to the fridge. Yes, of course, there are designs where it just works best that way. We had a member awhile back whose tiny kitchen made her put her fridge in her basement. That's definitely the most inconvenient, but it worked. More recently, however, a member really wanted to tuck her fridge away from the working area of her kitchen even though there were several possible locations which would be much more convenient. We harped and noodged until she really analyzed how it was cooking with the fridge out of the way vs. accessible, she pretend cooked, modeled, counted steps, or whatever. And had a total change about. She probably felt ganged up upon and maybe a bit bullied, but I truly think it improved the function of her kitchen. And if she'd reported back that the out of the way place was just fine, that she'd tested it and was perfectly happy with it, we'd have been happy for her and laid off. There's a current member working on her design whose fridge is also not in the most convenient place, but it looks like it's probably the best way to lay out her space and a good tradeoff for what she's gaining.

It's not about orthodoxy. It's about function. And I, for one, will just as easily challenge the insertion of a prep sink into a small kitchen with good flow, as to suggest one for a larger kitchen with a barrier island. And when the poster thinks it over, and says she really wants/needs it or not, that's good enough for me. Think it through. That's what we're all saying.

> Then if I still choose to break a norm I know I am doing so for a reason(s) that makes sense to me and my family. Information is empowering.

Yup.

I have to admit I roll my eyes sometimes at the monstrous kitchens while complaining about inadequate space, or the some of the things people get so worked up over. But when it's YOUR angst, it's a whole different ballgame. :)

When I was designing my (smallish) kitchen, the advice I got related to MY kitchen. No one said the kitchen wouldn't be good enough or big enough or that the finish items I was choosing were too pedestrian. I don't know anywhere else you can get that kind of free, personalized advice, and it makes this forum incredibly valuable.

Diversity is good and largely valued here but sometimes (in my opinion) the joint gets a little bougie (as in bourgeois) both in terms of budget and aesthetics. I think (personally, I'm not ascribing any motivation to anyone else) both of the threads referred to by the OP are\were opportunities for folks to express their appreciation for roads that seem less traveled on the Forum. I don't think the perceived slight in "against the grain" was imagined but I don't think it was the primary concern of most of the posts either. Can't speak for anyone else but when my feathers get ruffled (and they have been on occasion) it probably has more to do with me than anything that was posted. I do think an aspect of diversity is being able to see events from different perspectives. The participants here are very generous to share their time and experience and I am always learning something to tuck away for my kitchen reno when the time finally comes.

Wow! Lots going on here since my last visit! I can understand both sides of the coin. I read the "going against the grain" post to be lighthearted & kind of funny. Could I agree with the those posts, well, yes I could. While in the throws of posting layout after layout I, too, began to think "Gee, these people are sure nit picky". Which translates to "Damn it, why can't 'I' get this right". I truly appreciate everyone's opinions especially the "nit picky" ones! It is with their help that my kitchen design has evolved into the most functional design. I am grateful that they took the time to help me!

I think the problem is that it is so hard for many of us to visualize things even with the 2D & even 3D drawings. We spend so much time in our kitchens, most of us short on time as it is. A kitchen remodel is expensive and you don't want a very expensive mistake! Someone in this thread touched on it saying "when its your angst its a whole different ballgame!"

One of the best pieces of advice I have received from this forum was something I thought I had the answer to( & seemed so obvious!)until I actually tried it. The advice was to visualize yourself going through the motions of a favorite meal. At the time I was about to give up thinking I'd just keep my present design with its smaller work triangle. Well, surprise, surprise, once I went through the motions in my mind (& counting!) I found that my smaller work triangle actually required more than 57 extra motions (as compared to the new design) just to make a simple spagetti dinner! Who knew?? Some wonderful person here on KF!

As I tell my kids it would be a very boring world if we all agreed on everything!

Thank you all for your continued input!

Hey, my kitchen is being installed today and I am very happy. Thank you guys, now lets move on, we have others to help out. Keep on threading.

Everyone has different needs and desires. Back when I was planning my kitchen, things were no different on the KF than they are now. There are always some folks that think there's only one good way to do things. And there are folks who feel that they are going to get ridiculed for doing their own thing.

The reality of it is that just like any other advice or information, it's up to us to pick and choose what makes sense to us and what doesn't. Read any kitchen magazine and there's plenty of advice and news about trends and must haves, etc. Of course, you don't end up feeling that their advice is the only way to go.

Lots of KDs, GCs, appliance sellers, etc. who also tell you this is the "only" or "best" way to do it. I got a TON of that when I was shopping. Again, you sift out the stuff you don't like and keep the stuff that makes sense for your situation.

Same thing here. The only difference is that we're not professional writers so maybe we're not saying it in that perfect way. But anyway, the fact that there are so many differing opinions here on ANY given topic is a clear indication that there is no one answer for any question. Yeah, some posts can be written more gently, some points can be made more nicely. But heck, IMO, as intelligent adults, we should be able to just ignore the posts that don't work for us and move on. Just as we do in pretty much all other aspects of life.

Yep, diversity is a good thing. I wont even post my kitchen plan because I know I will be run through the ringer lol. However, for me itÂs very important I get more countertop without demolishing half the house to get it, and IÂm on a budget. So, I think I will be happy with the changes I have decided to make. If I did decide to show my plan I would know that I would have to buck up and take the criticism. One should expect that not everyone is as good as the next at wordage. Pretty much everyone who has come in my house has suggested I rip out halls and entry ways or block out windows on the other side. I like some of the ideas and some I donÂt as it would mean affecting some architectural elements that I love. Ultimately though, itÂs down to money and in this economy I feel more comfortable spending less and still getting a pretty kitchen with the long awaited workable counter spaceÂeven if my layout may not be perfect enough for a magazine spotlight. So, thatÂs my story and IÂm stickin to it lol.

I think as jterrilynn just pointed out that it isn't always feasible financially or architecturally for everyone's kitchen to be perfect in every way. What matters is that the ins and outs are considered, re-considered, and re-re-considered before making the final decisions. That's why this forum is so valuable. If a not absolutely perfect layout is posted then the OP may get bombarded with advice. And that's not a bad thing. You may not being able to utilize all of the advice. But at least you are seeing the whole picture and from differing perspectives before making the final cuts. But just maybe having so many eyes looking and brains smoking may mean someone comes up with a way to have your cake and eat it too! Now that's yummy. But maybe not. And that's okay too. In the end I'd bet my bottom dollar that the OP would still end up with a better kitchen even if it isn't perfect by everyone's standards. It surely is a matter of priority. If more counters are a priority then maybe something else may have to suffer . . . but as long as it is an educated choice then it's all good.

I've gotten advice on this forum that I chose to ignore. But I didn't ignore it out of ignorance and I'm grateful to this forum for that choice. Love ya all : )

It's possible that we lose sight of the process of compromise that everyone goes through in planning a kitchen. No matter whether apt. micro-kitchen or mega-kitchen, or everything in between, there are always compromises. You can not have a functional kitchen with walls lined with all stoves, no matter how much you love them. Neither can you have all fridges, if that's your thing. And you can't have function by just leaving out the appliances in order to have more counter space.

I know these are ridiculous examples, but I just want to make the point that every design is a set of compromises, giving up one thing in order to get another, regardless of size or budget. When someone would have made a different compromise than a plan posted here, we often don't know the background process that led to the designs shown, so feelings can easily be hurt by off-hand comments (ususally never meant to be hurtful).

IMHO, one of the most helpful strenghts of this forum is the sharing that goes into the compromise decisions that individual members make about their own kitchens. More choices, more data, more descriptions of functional impact, more budget understanding, more legal and GC management, all lead to stronger final compromises.

No one really likes to compromise, it's human nature to want everything our own way, and the natural reaction when we don't get our own way is to be angry (just watch a baby or toddler :) But, when helpful advice is freely offered here, it may of necessity invoke the need for compromise, and that can lead to the angry responses, albeit rare ones, that result.

I feel SO bad when I see a great, free, helpful post get that kind of response, and always hope the poster is able to let it roll off...

I first discovered this forum almost immediately AFTER making all of my kitchen design choices! I learned, among many other things, that many helpful experts suggested that you should have a range hood that was 6" wider than your cooktop, and I felt, for several weeks, that my hood (36" for a 36" range, which seemed so right when I bought them) just wouldn't measure up. No one made me feel that way, I just felt that this was a piece of wisdom that I hadn't known about, and that I would be embarrassed to post any pictures of my kitchen.

Even though we have a creamy white kitchen, we also went with a very uncommon granite. I was always searching for pictures (in the FKB, magazines, etc.) that had the same finishes that we had chosen, so that I could see what it was going to look like, but I never found any. While the things we chose were not quirky or terribly different or creative, they are beautiful, and the resulting whole from the combination of choices is different from the other kitchens I have seen. I love that now, but I was very concerned last summer when I worried that we had not followed the seemingly accepted 'rules' for a white kitchen.

I have learned so much from this forum about functionality, design, and human nature, and I thank all of the posters for continuing to educate and entertain me months after my own kitchen has been finished. I appreciate the knowledge and expertise of the regulars, and enjoy hearing their advice even though it was too late for me. I would have liked to have known about it BEFORE I designed my kitchen, but truthfully, we love everything about our new kitchen and wouldn't change a thing!

Wanting to be Reassured.

I think many new people want to be reassured, when they post for the first several times. It's not timidity. It's wanting reassurance. It sounds like what natenvalsmom described in her case, although she lurked and may not have posted about all those little things that we discover for the first time, when we want to stretch our kitchen reno into something new that we have never done before. What I was hoping for myself a year ago, is a bit of simple reassurance. This seems to be what many newbies want.

This is what has been lacking, in my time here. A simple "yes, that will work" will do. Instead, newbies get complex responses, showing overall grand scale thinking that includes all the possible negatives. There may be some (scant) encouraging words along the way, but never is heard an encouraging conclusion. Oh give me a home.

I posted on the "Grain" thread. I haven't read the "quirky" thread. When a critical mass of people have said they don't like something, it's worth hearing.

I hope we don't give in to the temptation to be nice just because of some discomfort felt. It may be time to make a change. Let the industry KD's and others of similar skill just slow down and let newbies hear that "it will work" at first.

For many newbies their personal choices and constraints make them come here with a dilemma.
Someone has to say "it'll work."

I tweaked everything in my kitchen.
This forum is good.
This forum helped me justify personal innovations.
This forum confirmed ideas.
There were instances of positive reinforcement, and there was resistance at other times.
My personal situation is my own, but I did find many to be unrealistically resistant, to some of my new ideas. In those cases many of the posters hadn't even read the idea fully. Many had no experience at all and commented nonetheless, negatively ! The few KD's and professionals who commented were often wrong "in reality" and only spouting out their paradigms. Then, worse than this was the Groupthink: an alpha wolf speaks, and the beta wolves come in for bites. I saw this happen to a couple threads of mine.

The GW forums won't live up to their potential when groupthink takes over.
The GW forums won't live up to their potential when experts can't stand being corrected.
I've seen many forums go downhill when the powerful ones in that forum get rigid in their thinking.
So much for the power of crowds. Oh well, it's only a forum, and it's only worth ( __ insert nominal amount here).

--
Since it's a good forum, I'll be glad to stay and help.

When I post pictures or ask questions, I get mixed responses and I don't get upset. I learn a lot from these forums and I use or try what I think will work for my situation and my comfort zone. There have been times where I wish I took the advice of the majority when painting my bathrooms and bedroom that Deep Cream color that was too yellow and not dark enough. I repainted my Master Bathroom since then and used accessories as suggested to tame the lemon yellow in my Master Bedroom and now I find the color happy and livable but still wish it was a touch darker with a touch more beige in it.

I was told by a professional painter that the BM Bone White was not too dark and with my fear of color a few years ago, he felt I should try it. I loved it so much that I repainted a few other rooms that color with white trim.

For my kitchen I had suggestions of stains and gels to make the worn out cabinets look temporarily better before my clients arrived since some of them sit in my family room open to my kitchen to watch TV as I am doing work for them. The Mini Gel worked and I am no longer ashamed of my kitchen cabinets despite still not being happy with them since I want knobs and I wish they were not laminate oak.

The French Door Refrigerator was a great idea I got from the Kitchen Forum since now I do not have ot move the chair on my kitchen table to open my refrigerator.

Some posters had me look into the KitchenAid KUDE dishwasher and I ended up buying it and I love it.

I still have other changes in my kitchen to make and some comments from those that don't understand my financial situation of doing everything on my own as a single women in a high cost area sometimes make comments that could have been worded better but I don't let it bother me since I would rather posters be as honest as they can so I can learn and decide which ideas and opinions I am comfortable trying that I can budget since I want a nice home that has resale value for the future.

Thank you for everyone posting all size and types of kitchens and sharing ideas on renovations and kitchen face lifts. I appreciate all of you.

This site also is wonderful for helping me relax by reading posts before getting ready for bed after a long day from early morning to late night during my busy season.

P.S. Davidro1, yes sometimes we Newbies post to be reassured. Thank you for your post and I thank all others for contributing. I read all the posts but now I am too tired to type much more and need to get some sleep.

I participated in two kitchen threads within the past six months (an 80s condo, and a 20s cottage). The 80s condo wanted to do a cosmetic update (a relatively inexpensive granite, etc.); the cottage wanted a new layout with no change in structure.

They got a lot of very strongly worded advice to the effect "if you can't do X,Y,Z, *don't *bother".

The cottage owner was actually advised to do Nothing (except replace the failing 24" range)and let the next owner worry about it.

There was validity to those arguments, and yet it was not particularly constructive advice, and I think it scared both people off.

I think that is a group behavior that we need to be careful of. We should be willing to help people within set parameters.

The OP mentioned two threads ("against the grain" and "quirky kitchens").

The OP said
"Both of these threads revealed that some people on this forum have felt sort of bullied by the prevailing ..."

I think there is bullying happening.
And worse than that, it's a group.
They reinforce one another.
Not one of them has written anything designed to contain anyone else's exuberant force (bullying), which in my threads gone down to the base level of grouped ridicule.

Palimpsest has posted well, in the post immediately above, and in other posts saying different things. I've provided information too.

People are frustrated. I think they deserve credit, and not discredit. I've seen no incident of anyone trying to cause hurt, so I don't see the need to ask the frustrated to chill. The OP asked for people to chill. I think many will, once they make their point clear. In the meantime, let yourself feel this minor discomfort. It's really almost nothing to want to stop.

The OP did say, "bullying"

I'll say it too.

hth
-d

It's like everything else in life: moderation is the key. A little bit of "pressure" can make a person think and end in a much better kitchen (as it did in my case).

Too much encouragement, ie "do whatever you are inclined to. It will be fabulous" doesn't offer advice to reflect on, nor does it present other options.

But I think the underlaying foundation should always be concern and an attitude of caring, not judgement, and that was always one of the very special things about this forum, but I think a tad of meanness has been introduced in recent months. I read a comment the other day and did a triple take - certaintly she could not have actually meant that!! It was an outright insult about another's choice and blatent attack on the person's creativity. The next poster said as much and suggested ignoring and hopefully that is what happened.

Internet forums in general are notoriously outrageously cruel. This one never was and we need to be on guard against that.

I remember a day when even the finished kitchens that were far, far less than the dream kitchens we see here were posted, there was an abundance of comments, all of which were positive. There is *something* to appreciate about every kitchen. They seemed to get as many oooohs and aaahs as the really spectacular ones. I was almost blown over by that aspect when I first joined in 08. I thought, "how could strangers really be that caring and considerate and encouraging toward someone they don't really even know? Because that kitchen is nice, but they are over the top with their enthusiasm and support of it!" That was special and rare and made EVERYONE feel included, regardless of what type of kitchen they did or what kind of budget they were on. But now it seems like the swooning is reserved for only the kitchens that comply to the group standard, and that affects the flavor of the forum. I think it also makes the people who don't or can't comply to the standard feel bullied.

If we value people and the special characteristics of this forum, we should make an effort to make all kitchen renovators feel really good about their kitchen. If nothing else, we can appreciate all the effort and planning that went into it!

davidrol --

You truncated the OP quote, changing its meaning.

In fact I wrote that "some people on this forum have felt sort of bullied by the prevailing aesthetic, if only by their own inferences." My point was that although some clearly knowledgeable posters may come off a bit doctrinaire in their functional or aesthetic principles, it is clear that no bullying is intended. So, it makes sense to me that each of the rest of us decides whether s/he finds their respective expert judgments and advice useful or silly, but always without taking offense.

Unless someone responds to pics of your new kitchen by saying "that is the ugliest thing I have ever seen," there is situationally no reason to get your back up in this venue. Hence, mutter under your breath if you must, but remain civil in your posting.

That's what I meant. Cheers.

I think this is a great site and I continue to marvel at how much valuable time is volunteered to help strangers. Emails do not always read as they were intended. I'm sure we have all experienced this ourselves. Can we end this and move on?

Gwentm, not to be snarky, but we are moving on. All the other threads are still happening. Nothing is on hold or stopped up for this conversation. People who don't want to participate in this thread shouldn't click on it. That's the beauty of a forum - you can pick and choose. Things that bother you don't have to affect you, just go to another thread.

I think communication is a good thing when people are having some feelings they would like to discuss and this thread is the place for that.

When everything that people need to say has been said, the thread will naturally die out.

Needsometips08 - That was pretty snarky. Didn't mean to offend. I like to keep looking because the subject is about going against the grain and I enjoy reading about ideas that may be different, creative, and adaptive to a particular taste or circumstance. I was only suggesting to get back to that subject in my post. Looks like this thread is not really about that so I'll take your advice. Going back to review the intial and following posts it seems there were 2 previous theads along those lines that precipitated this discussion.

I see where you are coming from. I tend to roll with the ebbs and flows of the converstation and I think this one has morphed to the point of no return. There's been some frustration here and I thought it was finally good that people are talking about it rather than just keeping the escalation going, and I didn't want people who felt like they wanted/needed to speak to feel like they should just shut up and move on....BUT I was forgetting there is a whole nother issue that's separate from any frustration and that's about kitchens that do against the grain (minus any GW frustration aspects).

I too find that an interesting topic. My kitchen won't be ANYTHING like is seen here and who knows how it will turn out (It will be great, IT WILL, IT WILL, IT WILL - thinking positive!). I think you have to be somewhat skilled at decorating to pull it off and I am not - that's where my designer comes in - hopefully *my influence* won't detract from her talent too much!

Anyway, I just think this thread has morphed, and I think it's a good thing because hopefully in the future we will have many more threads about kitchens that go against the grain and hopefully because this thread was alive and well and everyone had a chance to speak who needed to, all the frustration that was expressed here won't end up leaking into every thread that is about kitchens that buck the norm. There seems to be a need for a place for us people who are not doing white/soapstone/marble kitchens. I vote for keeping a running and positive, happy thread for those of us who are doing something different.

Wow. To the OP - you should be a writer. That was so eloquent.

I can't say enough good things about this forum and the great advice that is so freely given.

All I can say to all the posters here is THANK YOU. All the contributions are what makes this a forum and a real community. Your advice has made all of our ki tchens a better place!!!

As has been said, this is a forum of strangers, yet we come here and put ourselves (really our ki tchens) out there for critique, advice and guidance. There are bound to be things that hurt our feelings or make us feel a little neglected, but that is life. What is amazing is that we all get such great advice and opinions of fellow TKO-ers and all for free! Now where do you get anything (particularly something this valuable) for free these days?

So again, I offer my thanks to all who post and continue to post, to give advice and opinions.

I also offer this to those who receive this advice - take what you like and leave the rest.