Okay, just read this and haven't given it a lot of thought, but have to go start dinner! lol I think I'd contact dshs and petition for gaurdianship of the children and let the adults go it on their own... ie finding detox help etc.....

Can you tell us more about the abuse and disrespect of the house rules? And what happened to have her remove them before? Also, what do you mean she "had them removed"? Did they not leave when asked and she had to have the police or sheriff remove them? I want to get a good picture of the situation.

yes, the police were called to remove them because they wouldn't go on their own. she wanted them out for a night or two - go stay at a hotel or something. she asked for an apology and an acknowledgement of wrongdoing and didn't get it, at least until now when they "need" her again. this was the only time she ever had them removed. they lost their home of their own doing.

as for abuse and disrespect - going in rooms where they didn't belong, taking things that weren't theirs, breaking things, food not cleaned up - on occasion, stuck to plates and instead of soaking/cleaning - threw them away.

although they have a drug problem, she has mentioned that they love their kids, spend all their available time with the kids, they are clean, dressed, etc. they have a problem, but they have never abused or neglected their kids, so she has never considered child welfare to get involved.

Would you take them back?
No, it did not work before, so why would it work any better this time?

The female does have some family, and mutually they donÂt seem to want anything to do with each other unless itÂs on their very respective specific terms.
If the couple can't stand on their own two feet, then let them go and live off of someone else for a while. If the young couple are not happy living there, it will just be more incentive to really pound the pavement and find employment and a place of their own.

The thought is they could fall back into bad drug habits without a proper place to live, (even though we all know with a place to live that can just as well happen as they are living proof of it).
Exactly. Maybe people 'giving' them a place to stay is just enabling them to not look for any kind of employment, and to just take advantage of kind relatives.

What sort of 'temporary' housing were they in?

They could also go to the pastor of a church. I once asked a deacon of a church what happened when folks were just 'dropped' off and he said they were given a nights stay at a local motel and then never heard from again.

their young children need a safe, stable place to live while their parents get their lives together.
I would suggest the relative offering to take the children in until the parents get their act together and can afford a place for them to live together as a family.

The only reason she would consider taking them all back she doesnÂt want to see them forced to live on the street because they canÂt presently get into a shelter or afford housing without a job;
Sometimes hitting rock bottom is what it takes for some folks to wake up and decide that they want to make better lives for themselves.

Need legal guardianship of the children with guidelines of parents involvement for the children's welfare and stability.
The parents are the ones to suffer the consequenses for their choices. People taking them in to do as they will with disrespect is not going to help the situation turn a round. The parents need to see and feel the consequences for their behavior before they will have any desire to change.
Children shouldn't have to suffer from the actions of their parents.
Lynn

I agree with everything Chemocurl said. One thing I'll add is that she is kidding herself if she thinks those kids have not been neglected. Besides the fact that they cannot possibly be fully available for their kids (to say the least), they are neglecting their needs by not doing everything they can to maintain shelter and stability for them, even when they have a generous relative who will help them out this way. They are selfish and ungrateful. And they are not putting the needs of their kids first. These kids need to have the involvement of Child Protective Services in their lives.

Yup I have to weigh in and say they've burned that bridge. If they were so disrepectful that they would snoop around in rooms they weren't supposed to be in and take things that didn't belong to them, why would this relative want to give them another chance?
Rescue the kids, let the adults suck it up, clean up and get a job.
Suzan J

I didn't read the other responses...

but I think I'd offer to let the children stay with me until they got a place to keep them. But they'd be on their own...

They'll never get a job if they are taken care of...believe me...I know.

patti

I really don't know what I would do. But for what it's worth, this is what happened in my family years ago. My mom has a bunch of sisters. The youngest has always struggled to support herself, make good choices, be responsible. I know there are some emotional issues, but I am not privileged to that information. She lost custody of her daughters to their father when they were very young, but is still in their lives. Later she had another child (whose father would never be in the picture to take him away) and remarried (to a man we can barely tolerate, he's just too dumb).

With both parents gone, she relied on her older sisters and moved in an out with them. After several years of this, they had about worn out their chances and came to them again. Mom and her sisters usually worked together to make a plan and share the burden of getting their sister on her feet again. The last time, my mom said the condition was, no one was willing to take in the whole family. They had to split up. One sister agreed to allow just the youngest sister to live with them, saying the husband needs to go to his own family (they would not take responsibility for him). And they said she had to let her son come live with another sister, the sister she was to live with could not help with childcare. She chose to go along, moved in w/sister and the husband went to his own family. She chose my mom and our family to care for her son. He was 2 then and lived with us for a year. Since I was 17, I helped care for him a lot. We lived 2 hours from her, she knew it meant she would not visit him often, which was very hard for her. But the family believed it would take that to motivate her to get her act together.

Took a year, but she improved some. She did learn some lessons. Never really as much as the family would like (we always wanted her to ditch the loser husband, but she wouldn't). But she doesn't ask for as much as she used to, and she has lived on her own most of the time since them. The son is grown now, 21 or 22, so it's been a long time. My aunt is a grandmother now, her very stable oldest daughter is married and has two children. Now my aunt relies more on her daughters than her sisters, that's all. Back then, the family helped for the sake of the kids.

There are those who give and those who take in this world. At some point, the givers get worn out and the takers find another way to get what they need/want.

Sad, but true.

Your friend has to get "worn out" before she can let go of the idea that her help will change anything. If it could have, it would have already.

But, she has to finally accept this fact for herself before she can stop opening up that door. That's how really decent and optimistic people operate, for the most part.

Add my name to Chemogirls post. She is spot on.

Saw the very similar situation play out with with my DH's brother and his wife. They preyed off DMIL for decades. She prayed a lot and always gave in and "helped" them. Prayed and enabled her son right into his early grave. Niece and nephew are all screwed up too. Niece is attempting to do good but keeps repeating her mother's mistakes. Vicious cycle.

Sounds like the other family set firm boundaries and adheres to them. I don't believe the "mutual" for one second. The person you are speaking for needs to do the same.

Abuse and neglect can be a subjective. But in my opinion druggie parents who don't respect others are not capable parents. Those kids need stability and they won't get it with this pair. Keep the kids safe...boot the parents.

I'll agree pretty much with everything Chemocurl said with a caveat: There's clearly a lot we don't know. So, assuming that what we are reading into this and assuming about it Sue said it well.

A few other comments:

I don't win friends or influence people when I state my belief that all too many people claiming mental problems can be attributed to laziness or other issues. This world of ours and the political correctness required demands that nobody be accountable. It must be an illness, disorder or syndrome. I don't agree that it is so.

Some of the problems here, like taking things that weren't theirs. Well, what was it? The last of the potato chips or their inheritance of jewelry? That could make a BIG difference in the opinion. Going into rooms. Uh, again, I sense something is being withheld here but on the surface it sounds pretty tacky. When you open your home to someone don't you open all the rooms? If not, you better get a lock out. Sure they can break in since locks are for honest people, but that would be far more condemning to me had something like that happened. Breaking things. Intentional or accidentally? Are they just clumsy? Again, you open your home you run a risk. And the dirty dishes is again probably something being withheld but some dirty dishes...could be a justification to kick them out if the relative is a clean-freak but otherwise, I won't be helping build a gallows over dirty dishes. Again a risk of someone in your home. Maybe they're not as neat or even pigs. So without knowing more, I'm assuming something is being withheld because it's pretty tacky to get overly excited over these points.

Under the circumstances I think you are in a no-win situation here frankly. Either way you suggest will probably be putting you in the worst possible situation. If you say take them back and something tragic happens everyone will blame you. If you say don't, then the do-gooders will be down on you. If they break something or leave a dirty coffee mug, you might get your head ripped off. If nothing happens, it still seems like innocent people get blamed. I've seen this too many times, and been in that position.

Taking the kids would be a good thing, but I think it should be with a Court order. Otherwise there could be problems for the relative. The relative has no rights and if these people are nutcases could make a lot of trouble for this person if they go off the deep end or if there's an argument. Blackmail is a possibility too.

Am I overly cautious? Often. But having a background in crime prevention, law enforcement and other such situations and seeing the things that can and do happen, yes, I think it's better to side with a healthy dose of CYA. I've been taken advantage of enough that I now am much more hardened to offers of help. It's sad since it goes against my basic beliefs but if you look at the odds of people these days, it was a necessary change or I'd be living in a...

I agree with chemocurl and cynic. If you decide to step in and help with the children you should do so only with a legal document in place. It could be a temporary guardianship determined by a court or assuming 'care, custody and control'. As for the parents - let them figure things out for themselves. If they are substance abusers, their children should be taken away from them until they can prove they are capable of taking care of them. And I don't mean being 'clean' for 6 months. Being clean for a short amount of time is one thing when you're taking care of yourself, but the added stress of being responsible for your children could add to the stress of staying clean. They need to prove they can hold employment for at least one year, pay rent for at least one year and attend sobriety/abuse counseling for at least one year. Then, and only then, should they be assessed and perhaps considered competent enough to assume responsibility of their children on a trial basis.
All the above should be done through the courts. If what you say is true about their actions, Child Protective Services should be called. She is doing the children no service by not stepping in and blowing the whistle on these people. CPS moves swiftly. They will open a case and investigate. If it's determined that there is child neglect or abuse, or drug abuse by the parents, a case file will be started and an investigation will take place.
The only problem with your relative assuming responsibility for those kids is that, unless the parents are prevented from having contact with them until they complete the terms of the court, they will be at your relatives door, using the kids as a manipulative tool, and this won't be a healthy situation for the kids or your relative. She sounds like a good soul, kind and compassionate, but these people obviously know which buttons to push with her and how to manipulate her. Best to have no contact with the parents until they can prove they are worth the air they breathe.

thank you for all the responses. everyone is basically on the same page as most of us are - as a matter of fact to the point of asking her if she is the crazy one for even considering taking them back.

cynic, in regard to your post, yes, she opened her home. not her drawers, locked cabinets, personal belongings, etc. and as for things being broken, i only touched the surface. it's only throw various family members that we can all piece together, or try to piece it, the extent of damage. as as for your thoughts...Maybe they're not as neat or even pigs. So without knowing more, I'm assuming something is being withheld because it's pretty tacky to get overly excited over these points. pigs is a good way to explain it. as for things being withheld, i suppose there are, but in the last 6 months, my aunt's life has been turned upside down and inside out, so i really don't know what is tacky about that.

we have discussed temporary custody of the boys, she did see an attorney, but the parents have to agree to it, sign documents, and they won't. as of now, she hasn't gone the social services route yet and no, she's not fooled that it's not a form of neglect or inability. i guess because she is a caring, compassionate, well-intentioned woman who has experience some very unfortunate events in her immediate family many years ago, she doesn't want to go that route, and having the kids in her ~~possession~~ so to say, avoids the need for the government to step in and decide.

i'll be talking to her around 10 my time and will read her all your responses. i think it's necessary to see that even people not associated to the situation feel enough is enough as well.

thanks

Taking in drug addicts, making life easier for them IS enabling them, no matter what else you might want to call it.

And your relative needs to understand, if these people are in the system, and have young children, THEY WILL NOT be on the street UNLESS IT's THEIR CHOICE. My husband works with people like that on a daily basis. There's plenty of help, plenty of available housing for those who need/want it. They just don't want to follow the rules elsewhere, any more than they did when they were living with your relative. That pretty much tells you why they want to come back there.

What would I do? I wouldn't have let them stay the first time around. Might have offered to take in the children--if I had the time to be a full-time mother to them, to try to undo the damage their parents have already done (and make no mistake, these children are going to have serious issues because of their parents' addictions). Or I might do some research to help them find the appropriate community resoureces, but I won't even allow known drug addicts in my home to visit for a few hours. They're too dangerous. Otherwise, I'd pretty much take the attitude 'you got yourself into this situation, get yourself out'

earthly ~ Please caution your aunt not to assume any responsibility without the parents agreement. She is just opening herself to a world of hurt if things aren't 'spelled out'. You say the parents "won't" sign documents and if that's the case, your aunt needs to steel herself and walk away from the situation. I know she doesn't see it this way, but honestly, she has more power than she realizes. They are asking her for help. She should agree to helping them on her terms and for the benefit of the kids. If she says "no go unless you do it legally", then closes the door, once they see, really see, that she means what she says they might have an epiphany of sorts. Or they might just go back to the status quo, which is the guilt trip on your aunt. Either way, she has the power, not them. Maybe she could have some family members with her when she discusses this with them. There's strength in numbers and it would be sort of an intervention, not only for the parents but for your aunt. I sense that she desperately needs to muster the strength to take charge of the situation, and solidarity from her relatives and/or friends would help.

"I'll be talking to her around 10 my time and will read her all your responses. i think it's necessary to see that even people not associated to the situation feel enough is enough as well."

And for your own sanity and sake, I hope you understand that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I wish you and your family much luck.

The link below is a good one about enabling (whether they are still abusing substances yet or not) and codependency.

I have seen it all before...folks wanting or having a 'need' to try and help others who are not willing to help themselves.

She can't get them a job. She can't make them stand on their own two feet. If she takes them back in, she can well kiss her own life good-bye and just put up with the hell she had with them before.

She must just learn to accept those things which she cannot change.

Sue

Here is a link that might be useful: Who and what is an enabler.

"to try to undo the damage their parents have already done (and make no mistake, these children are going to have serious issues because of their parents' addictions)."

I work in an elementary school and I see situations like this on a daily basis. It not only breaks my heart but it makes me damn angry. I don't know if the children are of school age, but if so, has the school been notified of the parents 'situation'? If not, they need to be because they can step in. The school social worker will talk with the children and then (more than likely) call CPS. It will then be out of your aunt's hands and the parents will have to answer to the legal system. We have an obligation to the children to do the right thing.

I think the parents are using the kids as their tool to get back in with your aunt, or whatever else they can get, by keeping them. If they were in their 'right' mind, they'd see the kids would be better off with a relative, while they cleaned up their act, got jobs, and housing.
Don't let them back in. My sister has 'helped' her 47 yr. old son out to the point they've lost their home, and had to file bankruptcy. (she can't handle their money wisely either, so it's not all the son). But finally, the son is in a place where he's sobered up. They've helped him find a job. He couldn't even has his car, or phone unless he earned it, and had 3 months in the center. He's been there 4 1/2 months now. I hope he stays sober. For my sisters sanity.

Leslie

I would also be concerned for the children not the parents.

Your aunt sounds like a very kind good woman and she's struggling with herself it seems. It's so easy to think that helping a person is the right thing to do and most times,it is but there are times when we need to look at the picture from a different point of view. This is one of those times. To your aunt, I would say "You HAVE helped them" and it could never work. The proof is that it DIDN'T work and it's taking a toll on YOU" Now is the time for your aunt to be kind to herself and tell them it's impossible. You need to take care of yourself. If you can stick to this for several months you'll see they'll find another way. I wish you peace.

She shouldn't leave it to the school to call CPS, she should do it herself. It would be as an act of love for the children.

While I'm not for breaking up a family, the kids might do better in foster care with lots of controlled visitation by their parents. But...I hope your aunt won't kid herself if she fosters the kids. At the end of the day, the children and their parents will BLAME HER for the separation.

I'd say she needs to stand back and let the parents find their own living arangements. She tried. It wasn't satisfactory for either side. Leave it -- and let her spend some time examining why she 'needs' to be a rescuer.

i'm back. been a long day of telephone calls and tears.

she said she will not be taking them back. she's come to the realization that she can't help them because they really haven't helped themselves. one positive thing, someone from her church sent someone to talk to her - not sure if this was a lawyer or a from a child agency (i'm getting some mixed info). she actually said "i have to realize the little ones kids are not my responsibility". i thought that was a big step. (we know how she means that, so don't think by not making calls to social services or the like, is what she meant). both are in school, first and third grades. she has talked to teachers, one plays sports - so his coach, etc., and no one ever thought neglect for a minute. even though the parents might be smacked azzes, they have not neglected the boys in the true sense of neglect. and she would know neglect, if you knew her story as a child.

so i thank you all for your thoughts. earlier when i spoke to her, she cried when i read many of the posts and said after a while "that's enough, that's enough, i know, i know", i've heard it from all of you, i heard it from XXXX visitor. when i said do you really believe in what you are saying and she promised she did.

a relative is on his way to her, he has a business trip mid week and is making a little side trip to stay for a few days and see what he can do to aid them in finding housing. she made it clear that they will not be returning and he will be with her and whoever this person was that visited earlier, so that they hear it face to face and there's no confusion.

this woman is wonderful, with a heart as pure as gold. it's not the first time she has extended that heart and probably won't be the last. it's her nature. this one was hard given the circumstances of her family and the promises made. i know her heart is breaking, but i can also hear a certain relaxed manner about her knowing she has made the right decision.

thank you all again.

I wish your aunt the best. I'm sure it's been very rough on her emotionally. It's hard when 'doing the right thing' hurts so much.

I sure feel sorry for your Aunt because I'm sure she is on a big guilt trip. I also worry for her safety. Please warn her about letting them back inside her house even for a visit.

Nothing will change, it will just be the same thing and then once more police called to remove them.

Be guardian to the children while their parents clean themselves up. That way they can be safe.

But take the parents back, no.