Yes, islands or peninsulas are wonderful places for homework, baking projects, crafts, science projects, etc. But, you need adequate floor space to accommodate them.

Unfortunately, your kitchen really isn't wide enough for counters on both walls PLUS a 36" deep island (really, 37-1/2")...let alone seating.

OK...here is what you'll really have...

24" cabinets
1-1/2" counter overhang

34-1/2" aisle

1-1/2" counter overhang (island, sink side)
24" cabinet
12" counter overhang (island, seating side)

34-1/2" aisle

27" Refrigerator IF you get a built-in refrigerator...NOT a CD refrigerator.
---------
159" (13'3")

Note: CD refrigerators are usually 29" to 31" deep including handles.

Your aisles are really only 34-1/2" wide. Add to that that this aisle is a major thoroughfare through the kitchen (Enter from garage/mudroom then you must go through the kitchen to get to most of the rest of the house...using the aisle b/w the island and the refrigerator).

Here's what the National Kitchen & Bath Association (NKBA) Guidelines says about aisles: Walkways (passages between vertical objects greater than 24 inches deep where not more than one is a work counter or appliance) should be 36 inches wide

Work aisles (passages between vertical objects, both of which are work counters or appliances) should be at least 42 inches wide in one-cook kitchens, at least 48 inches wide in multiple-cook kitchens. Measure between the counter frontage, tall cabinets and/or appliances.

In a seating area, 36 inches of clearance should be allowed from the counter or table edge to any wall or obstruction behind it if no traffic will pass behind a seated diner. If there is a walkway behind the seating area, 65 inches of clearance, total, including the walkway, should be allowed between the seating area and any wall or obstruction.

And, here's what the NKBA says about seating (no, you didn't ask, but I thought I'd mention all the seating issues): 36-inch-high counters: Allow a 24-inch-wide by 15-inch-deep counter space for each seated diner, and at least 15 inches of clear knee space.

This means you really should have a 15" overhang for seating, not a 12" overhang. Yes, many people here say that 12" is enough, but when questioned further, it turns out many sit sideways to accommodate the too-shallow overhang or they "straddle" the cabinets in front of them. Sure, your young children will probably be fine w/12" today...but children grow very, very quickly!! Any overhang should be sized for teens/adults. (E.g., my just-turned 13-year old DD is 5'11" and my 14-1/2-year old DS is 6'3"...and it seems that just last year they were both in elementary school!)

Another issue...your island is what's known as a "barrier island"...i.e., the island is an obstacle b/w the sink and the refrigerator.

You'll be running around the island b/w the refrigerator & sink and believe me, that grows old quickly. Now add a couple of children sitting in that aisle and it's not going to be fun!

Note that is not just "book knowledge". My SIL has almost the exact same layout and aisle clearances that you have...she actually does have 36" aisles (the only differences b/w hers and yours are (1) she has a base & upper cabinet where you have the tall pantry and (2) she has hooks on the wall where you have that small cabinet next to the mudroom door...she only has a PR there, no mudroom so that door opens directly into the garage). And yes, she has seats b/w the refrigerator and the island...well, she did. She no longer does b/c it's impossible to work in her kitchen w/someone sitting at the island so she got rid of the stools in the kitchen and now no one is allowed to sit at the island except in extreme cases. (Hmmm...now that I've looked at your layout further, her house & yours are almost identical...the exact same layout of Kitchen-table area-FR/Kitchen-DR/Kitchen-Foyer-LR!)

Bottom line: If you want seating at the island, then you need to either move the refrigerator & pantry elsewhere or you need to configure the island differently...or maybe have a peninsula instead of an island...

Even taking 6" off the island cabinets will only help somewhat...giving you a 40-1/2" aisle if you keep the 34-1/2" aisle on the sink side. But now, your island is only 31-1/2" deep...

I would also consider having one of the seats on the end of the island on the table side...

If you must have this layout, then I think the 18" deep cabinets are the way to go...but I would really like to see you come up w/a different layout to eliminate the "barrier island" problem...if at all possible. One possibility is a prep sink on the island across from the range....that would mitigate much of the "barrier island" issue.

BTW...what's that block sticking out of the island on the top of the island?

Where is your DW? To the left of the sink, I hope.

Links:
NKBA Kitchen Planning Guidelines
Kitchen Design Guidelines

I also agree that seating in the island is important. Especially with kids. I don't have a fridge behind my island, just a wall so my situation may be a little different. But I do have a smaller island, 30x63 and absolutely love it. I have a 12 inch overhang on two sides, so I put one stool on the short side and two on the long. When we have company I bring in one more stool so 4 can sit there(it's usually kids so it isn't that tight). I don't have a lot of storage in the island. Just the trash and recycling and another shallow cabinet. I really wanted the seating so I gave up storage.

The Island is where everyone gathers and the kids are sitting there constantly. I have a table in the kitchen and most people prefer the island. I do have 40 inch clearance to a blank wall behind it though, and this works perfectly.

Try and look at GGLKs's kitchen. She has a fridge behind her island. I know she said it's a little tight sometimes when they entertain and they want to get into the wine fridge beside it. I don't think she had a large clearance either. You could post a question to her, she's usually around to answer.

Here is a link that might be useful: gglks's finished kitchen

Take a look at blakey's finished kitchen. The thread is a little further down from this one. Could you steal some space from your breakfast area to gain some island seating at the short end? I know that short overhangs are not ideal for island seating but if you could add even a 12" curved extension to the island you would have room to tuck a few small stools there for the times you want the kids nearby.

We have an odd situation at our home in that there is a 6 inch overhang on the island. Not enough to sit comfortably, obviously. Well, you know what: people still pull up a stool to the island and sit! My kids eat bfast there and do homework there. There is something about hanging around the island that is very social and convenient. I can't wait to re-do this kitchen and get some island seating back.

How about removing the section of wall between the dining room and kitchen and then extending the wall behing the fridge into that doorway by the same amount? It would allow you to shift the fridge a bit, minimizing the 'barrier island' effect and also giving you alittle offset of the fridge and seating.

Also, I would shift the island by the few inches that it takes to line it up with the bfast room end of the fridge wall. That will further minimize the problem.

Sort of like this:

I also wanted to add that, while you were making those suggested structural changes, you could have the studs on the wall behind the fridge turned sideways to gain another couple of inches in depth to your aisle there. Just a thought.

Sandy

If you moved the entrance to the mudroom to the corner, would this give you enough space to put the fridge at the end of the range wall. Then you could put 15" deep pantry cabinets along the fridge wall and have room for island seating.

Hi, Beschenbach. I love these forums. There's just no substitute for personal experience. I just wanted to toss in the obvious point that children just don't need the same sort of sit down and get comfy setup that adults expect to be provided. They'll stand and kneel on the stools and on the island itself whenever you let them, and it really sounds like you do have the room you guys need for your cooktogethers.

My kitchen is also 13.3 wide and I was determined to make room for an island. In my old layout the refrigerator was on the wall behind the island (across from the sink) so it just didn't work. I put off remodeling the kitchen for about 2 years until I finally had a breakthrough.

In my case the breakthrough was being able to clear the refrigerator and all cabinets off of that far wall, so now I have 13.3 feet with one bank of cabinets on the sink wall, 42" of island, and the rest is walking space. It is a generous amount of space on both ends. This is a solution like the one Cheri posted above.

The breakthrough for me was that we were doing construction and I was able to build a large pantry around the corner in the mudroom which allowed me to lose that whole bank of cabs along the old fridge wall.

One of my very favorite things about the new kitchen is my island! Before it was useful for prep but too small to gather around or spread a buffet on. Now it is HUGE (for my kitchen:) at 5 1/2' by 3 1/2', holds 3 barstools easily and is the hub of the kitchen.

Good luck!

I think buehl pretty much covered why an island with seating is not the best solution with your current layout. The refrigerator as you have it drawn is not how it will be unless you get a true counter depth fridge.

If you want seating, what about a peninsula mirroring the stove wall? You may not get any storage under it--it may be more like a table.

This would only work if the DW were to the right of the sink and the operable patio door were to the left, I think.

One of the things I question about island seating is redundancy...the breakfast area is Right There, placing seating for kids/others pretty much right in the social zone anyway.

Looks like you and I pretty much have a similar downstairs layout, typical center hall colonial. My kitchen is only 5" wider than yours and I couldn't see have the frig on that wall behind the island and having seating. I've been living with a 24" deep buffet behind my island and it's very tight to walk past if people are seated there. For you, it looks like it's a direct path from the mudroom to the rest of the house.

Here's a different perspective. I understand most people love island seating, and I currently have an island with 2 bar stools. It is the very rare occasion that both stools are taken. My kids are 13 and 10. DD does her homework in her room. DS sometimes sits there and does his. All along I had been planning island seating, but I am actually moving away from it. The more I think about it, I don't like the way people are lined up in a row. So if 1 of my kids are at the island, I'm usually standing opposite them so we can talk. I am planning a small round table in the area you have marked as breakfast area. I think that will be close enough for people to gather and still be part of what's going on in the kitchen. I will probably keep a couple of backless stools for those times someone may want to perch at the island. Are you planning a table in the breakfast area?

If you do decide to go ahead with seating, I think Cheri's layout works the best. It's close to my layout, except my range is on the back wall. I think my kitchen may be longer than yours. It's 18' long.

Good luck!

Although the NKBA guidelines may be a place to start, I think there is nothing wrong with deviating from them, as long as you think it through. According to what buehl posted above, they recommend 65" for a walkway behind seating. This seems terribly excessive to me. In our kitchen, we have 47" between the island and the pantry cabinets, with seating in between (much like Cheri's drawing above). This walkway is the main traffic pattern through our kitchen. On more than one occasion, my DH has been seated at the counter, I have had a cabinet open right behind him looking for something, and someone has passed between us without having to turn sideways or squeeze. An extra 18" there, for us, would be a total waste of space.

I also like having island seating in my kitchen, even though the kitchen table is just a few feet away. I find counter-height seating much more comfortable for conversation with someone standing and cooking. I also like having multiple seating options when we have a crowd here, which is often.

If you can make some variation of Cheri's drawing work (that layout is very similar to mine, by the way), I think you can have it all.

I love your mud room (I am having mud room envy at the moment, so forgive me).

Here are some additional structural alternatives (not sure they are possible but wanted to mention them):

Could you shift the patio doors to the left, this would gain you a bit more kitchen wall space? You could still center your sink on that great window and you could put the refrigerator in that new space. You could reduce the depth of the cabinets of the tall pantry and put the cabinet across that whole wall (as cheri127 suggested).

The cabinet in the corner on wall of the dining room - what are you planning on storing in there? Are there items you could store in the mud room (mop, vacuum, extra paper towels) you could put in a similar closet in the corner of the mud room (opposite the bench/cubbies)?

I am an advocate of an island with seating (for the same reasons as you). I am having a raised section (not so popular) to allow my DH to stand and do prep and for a place for the kids to sit so they are not on the same level as the prep sink.

I also suggest doing a layout of your kitchen showing the cabinets/drawers/storage and listing what you envision storing where. This will get you thinking not only about what you need to store, but how you will use your kitchen and what will work best for your situation. Granted all is subject to change once the cabinets are in, but what shouldn't change is the amount of items you currently need to store.

As PP mentioned, since your breakfast table is so close, I think that will suit your needs as far as kids sitting to do crafts, eat, etc. For entertaining, most people gather around the island but don't really sit there; I'd personally not give up the extra storage and aisle space in your situation since you do have the breakfast table.

As a solution for the little ones using the island to help bake, etc., I have several friends that have Learning Towers at their islands and highly recommend them. You could get a couple and have them at the end of your island (facing the breakfast table). They're a little spendy, but if you consider them part of your kitchen reno, it's probably a drop in the bucket, LOL. At least that's how I justified buying two Stokke highchairs for my girls to match my new kitchen ;-)

Holligator, I agree w/you on the 65" aisle, I actually meant to add that to my post but forgot in the end! I usually recommend 48" to 54" or 60".

If Cheri's layout will work, it solves both the aisle problem as well as the barrier island problem. You might be able to move the "bench cubbies" to the now longer wall that's shared w/the kitchen.

++++++++++++++++++++ "...children just don't need the same sort of sit down and get comfy setup that adults expect to be provided..."

I would like to re-iterate that children are not children for long...you're talking only a very few short years...ask any parent how fast their children grew up! You should never size something expensive like a kitchen (or bathroom, for that matter) for small children...always plan for teens/adults (most teens are adult-sized!)

Oh my goodness, thank you all so much for all your thought and help with this decision. But you are all split on this, maybe more leaning towards NO. It is amazing how so many of you can jump in and totally understand what I'm going through! I think some of you have officially now put more thought into it than my own dh ;)

ncounty - yep, if we do it we'll definitely go backless small scale stools

buehl - thx for sharing not only your book knowledge, but your SIL's house knowledge. I do think I'll look into putting a seat on the table side, but it's a bummer to do it there since it is aesthetically (sp?) one of the main focal points of the kitchen and I'd love to do a pretty display there. Yes, the DW is to the left of the sink. And that block on top of the island is nothing - originally my KD was thinking seat there for me to chop my onions, but I'm so type A and never sit during the day so don't need a chair for me ;)

Positano - I couldn't find GGLK's kitchen. Anyone able to post a link to it?

busybme - I like the idea about moving the fridge walls studs sideways. Our fridge is 30" (including handles) and even 2" would help! The barrier island is another problem I'm worried about.

cheril - wow, thanks for toying with my layout! I love your suggestion, but I worried about the possible affect on our mudroom and not sure I could still do cubbies there. Also, would it be weird when I walk in from the garage (what we do 95% of time, I don't even carry a front door key!) that those doors aren't in line with each other. Maybe it's fine, I am probably just stuck in my way of thinking.

palimpseat - we did think about doing peninsula mirroring stove wall but run into issues with DW and also think it's just not modernizing us enough. We currently have a peninsula and would like to open up those arteries. Definitely a thought though!

kitchenredo - I think we could look into moving those patio doors if we moved the fridge there. Is it weird to walk in and the fridge, such a big appliance, right there though?

mom2reese - Oh, that learning tower is cool. maybe that is the best of both worlds!

I am going to try to summarize pros and cons for myself:

PROS of having seating:
cooking with kids doing homework there
quick breakfasts on the fly while I'm packing lunches
kids helping with cooking is easier

CONS of having seating:
- Island has to be at least 6" narrower (30" vs. 36") and loses some "gerth"
- Lose an inch or 2 (?) for structural to support the 12" overhang
- cabinets on sink side are probably about 16-18" max meaning we'd probably go open cubbies or something
- still a tight clearance and it's a main artery of flow, so potential for bumping and getting in way if seated

All that being said, I know I shouldn't do seating. But gosh darn it, I still want to....what's a girl to do ? :)

Whether you end up with seating at the island or not, I would strongly encourage you to consider Cheril27's plan. You are going to hate having your frig on the exact opposite side of the island from the sink. Currently my microwave is across the island from the sink (but not quite as blocked as your plan for your frig) and I find it quite annoying.
If your drawing is somewhat in scale, it looks like you should then be able to put the cubbies on the new longer wall b/t kitchen and mudroom.

Also, we LIVE at our island. Just a few steps away in the kitchen we have a full sized table that we could easily eat at, but rarely do unless we have company.

We are remodeling so we can seat more at the island and eliminate the eating area all together, and to pull the microwave into the L-shaped walkway in line with the other major functions.

I love the changes that Cheri127 made! You would put the cubbies on the wall behind the fridge, between the new door and the powder room. I can't tell the exact dimensions, but you may even get more cubbies that way. I don't think they need to line up at all. I love island seating. Our banquette & table are right next to our island and we still use and love having seating in our island. Good luck!

Wow, you all continue to amaze me!

OK, so I did a little Photshop magic pretty much stealing Cheri's ideas, but since I have the original I could really make sure the dimensions stayed true to size. (FYI, yes, this is an accurate 1/4" drawing...well, not on your monitors, but it is to scale :)

Questions:
1) How much room should I have between my range and my fridge. I don't want a ton because that eats into the pathway, but don't want it to look too skinny and weird. I shouldn't put those smack next to each other, right?

2) Will all that stainless look too um, stainless, very near each other? We are planning on keeping our fridge (french door LG stainless), probably our range (GE profile), and maybe (but likely not) our LG OTR microwave.

3) If we didn't keep our OTR microwave, any other ideas where it could go? Maybe in that 18" wall of cabinets? Do they even make MWs that shallow? In the island isn't a good idea, right?

4) I put in a red line for traffic flow from garage through kitchen. Without it being a straight line, is that going to be awkward?

5) With that row of 18" cabinets, is that forcing me to go custom? I know 24" is more standard, but maybe 18" is kind of standard too? I'm not sure if I'm going custom or not yet (still a bit early and need to price out). Would you do uppers and lowers, or all tall pantry in this space?

6) Would you recommend moving my door from garage to mudroom further south (down). Probably costly, not sure if there's a lot of bang for buck there?

OK, enough questions already Bridget! Sorry, don't feel like you need to answer all of them. Any help at all is appreciated!

Thought I'd chime in here....we just added an island with seating to our kitchen and are loving it. Previously there had been a small table in the area but the island is sooo much more practical - adds storage and work area while keeping the seating. We're empty nesters so no small children, but we use it daily ourselves and guests seem to congregate there.

Suggestion - if you can move the door from the garage further down, can you also change the swing of it? Right now, I think the swing of the door makes that space a little awkward but if you changed it to swing so that it opens flush against the wall, that should open up the space even more.

HTH

Instead of 18" tall cabinets, you could do 15" or 18" deep base cabs with 12" wall cabs, which would give you a lot of nice counter space (unless it would just collect junk). Or you could do 12" deep up to the ceiling tall cabinets for a pantry. Either of these would give you more visual space and more room for the island and a little better walk through area. I find the 12 or 15" depth perfect for pantry and dish storage.

Anne

I wouldn't worry at all about not moving in a straight line through the mudroom. You won't even notice that slight jog. We used the kitchen door exclusively which was set about 3 ft to the left of the doorway from the kitchen to the DR. It was never a problem. Not awkward at all.

I can't see why you can't just move the existing cubbies. And remember as Buehl said, they don't stay little long so the cubbies may not be as important as getting a great layout. An island with seating never gets outgrown!

One possibility for the pantry wall is bathroom vanity base cabinets. Sometimes they come in 18" depth then you wouldn't have to do custom. I think 18" deep base cabs with 12" deep wall cabs down the the counter would look great. If it were me and I was going to do tall cabinets, I wouldn't go deeper than 15" (I'd probably even consider 12") because stuff is so much easier to access when stored on shallow shelves.

Many people have microwaves installed in the island. Looks great and seems to function well. I do believe you can get them it fit in an 18" deep cabinet; it depends on what size you use (we have a small one as we use it only to reheat beverages and snacks or pop corn).

Can you fit 15" between the fridge and range? 18" would probably be better but I think 15" would work. We have 18" between the sink and fridge at it's plenty of space. I don't think it will look like too much stainless with the sink and fridge so close to each other.

Were you considering moving the patio doors? If you did that, and put the fridge on that wall, it would be more easily accessed from the family room and the deck (if that's what's on the other side of those doors).

I worried about putting a tall appliance next to a doorway the first time I did it, but it turned out to be just fine. I never felt like I was walking through a tunnel or anything.

The swing of the garage door looks like it will function well in either direction but I think I prefer it the way it is.

Just wanted to mention about the mudroom: we just redid ours and I love it. Before, we had cubbies for the 3 kids and a few hooks, and a larger room. No one ever hung up anything, ever, or even put it in their cubbies. Everything was always in a pile on the floor.

In the new setup, each person has a small cubby, 12 x 14 or so, for gloves, homework, baseball gloves, etc. (and a place for me to stick things when I'm cleaning up, so I can say, like a broken record, "it's in your cubby"). Then we have a double row of hooks, one row about 3' off the floor and the next 6'. I think 16 hooks in all, and they are double hooks. The mudroom is smaller over all but it's much, much, much better. So that is a very long way of saying that big locker-size cubbies are not necessarily vital. HTH

ps I am not a layout guru so will let other experts take the lead...I would just say based on my experience that the main aisle can't be too big, and that if a lot of people are always sitting at your island then there is less space to work.

Also, I think that 12'' deep pantry cabs are ideal--not a compromise! 18'' is too deep IMHO.

One other thought--prepare yourself, it's radical--what if you switched the sink and stove? Fridge-sink-stove is a better order of things--more room for MW--stove is on outside wall so venting is much easier--you could have windows on either side of the stove. Just a thought. Hope it's helpful and not overload! Good luck--

hi again--so, instead of losing your nice sink/window combo, what if the fridge were to the L of the sink? (and you pushed the sink over a bit) Advantages: You would have the fridge-sink-stove order; the fridge would be very accessible to breakfast room and family room, and people opening it for snacks, etc. wouldn't get in the cook's way.

sorry if someone else already suggested this and I missed it...

I agree with Holly that 12 inch deep pantry shelves are plenty deep! Since you have a message center and therefore shouldn't need another "dumping" ground counter space, I would consider making that whole pantry wall area solid 12' deep cabinets (or even less deep if they come any less deep!).
We have a walk in closet style pantry that used to have 12 inch deep shelves across one side wall and the back wall. We opened up the back wall to put a doorway into a new laundry. I was worried about losing those back wall 12"shelves. So, my on the other side wall where there had been no shelves b/c the door opens that way, my Dad put in approx 6" deep shelves from floor to as high as I can reach. The are perfect for lining up and seeing all your cans, bottles, mixes, etc. I feel like have more, and better storage with the less deep shelves.
With the 12" you will be able to put cans 3 deeps, fit paper towel rolls, etc.

not sure if you would even consider this, but what if you moved your patio doors to where the window is in the family room. That would give you extra space for possibly the refrigerator or additional cabinetry. not sure if you have a deck or patio of the back that might prohibit this, or if you just don't want to make that many changes.

Even though this thread is old, Id love to see the comments but can’t for some reason.