Try making a crust using half butter and half lard. Flavour as well as flakiness.

Ann

And if you are brave....try all butter! I find it a little harder to handle...but has a lovely buttery taste.

Yup, I agree with Linda on the flavour of a butter only crust.

Actually I don't find it any more difficult to handle though. I made an apple pie on Tuesday with an all butter crust.

Ann

Depending on the pie, I do all butter or half butter-half Crisco. Haven't tried lard yet, maybe that's next. But I love the butter flavor.

I can't imagine an oil crust. The solid fat makes pockets in the dough to create the flaky, light texture. I would think oil would just sort of glue it together.

One of these days, I'm going to experiment with making a pie crust with chilled, solidified Ghee, the Indian version of clarified butter. It is cooked longer than Western clarified butter, and gains a unique, almost toasty flavor. I have a fancy that it would make excellent crust for savory meat or vegetable pies.

I use AnnT's recipe. But not with lard..with palm shortening.

It's very easy to work with...holds up well and has that little bit of bite.

I do sometimes use all butter.

```reminds me I have fat in the freezer that needs to be rendered so I can try the crust with Lard..

The idea of lard gives me the creeps. I hate even the tiniest amount of fat on my meat. I do know it is considered quite good in baked goods. I think I might like it if I didn't know what I was eating. Guess I'll try butter next. I wish I knew my grandmother's recipe. It wasn't as flaky as my mother's but it tasted great. I know there was some sugar in the crust and egg wash on the top crust. My mother was certain hers was better than her mother's.

Did you have enough salt in the shortening crust? That makes a lot of difference in the taste.

I always use oil and it is nice and flaky.

Guess it's all a matter of taste and skill... Years ago, when I was still going to Bingo, one of the ladies there made a raisin pie with an oil crust that was to die for delicious and so flakey it would start crumbling as soon as your fork touched it... When I asked for the recipe she said it was the same as the Crisco but use oil instead... Well, it never worked for me.

This year I tried something different... I remembered reading that cake flour makes a better crust and if you don't have any just add a little corn starch, so I tried it... I also added about a teaspoon of vinegar to the cold water before adding it to the flour mixture... Surprise.... A nice tasty, flaky pumpkin pie crust, that didn't have a soggy bottom...

Rita

I use an all-butter crust for my apple crostata. The flavour and flakiness is just amazing. It's a little hard to work with though, I find.

My next-door neighbour used to use Robin Hood in a box. I always commented on her crusts (she generously shares her baking with us). She said that she's having trouble finding the boxed mix, so she's back to making her crusts from scratch.
She's 85, so the convenience of the box was nice for her.

I judge foods at county fairs and a GREAT pie crust is almost a lost art. Pastry is tricky because you want a combination of tenderness and flakiness. Here are my suggestions according to judging standards and pastry science.

Start with a low-protein flour, rather than using National Brands of all-purpose flour. Everything about making a short crust pastry is all about avoiding gluten-development, so start with a low-protein flour to begin with. Southern all-purpose flours (White Lily, Martha White, Gladiola, Red Band) work best for pastry (as well as biscuits).

I mill my own flour and I use soft white wheat, or a 3:1 mixture of soft white wheat and oat groats or spelt to get a low-protein flour.

Cut your fat into 1/4-inch cubes and freeze it.

Lard has a larger fat crystal than other fats and that is why it works so well in pastry. If you were raised on lard pastry, as I was, there's nothing better, but it's a flavor not everyone likes. Butter has great flavor, but it melts quickly and has a higher moisture content. The combination of the two, lard (or shortening) and butter is nearly always a winner. Personally, I use coconut oil or lard when I can find FRESH lard - not that hydrogenated stuff found at stores - and butter. I avoid using shortening, but shortening certainly is a favorite choice of many pie bakers.

When using the combination of fat (lard or shortening and butter), add the butter to the flour mixture first. If using just one type of fat, divide it into 2 portions. Mix the first portion into the flour mixture until it's the size of small peas. This fat addition will coat the gluten in the flour and aid in preventing the liquid from developing the gluten into long strands and will cause the pastry to be tender.

Next add the lard, or the second portion of fat. Make sure it has been cut into 1/4-inch cubes and WELL-CHILLED. Do not over mix this fat, but allow it to remain in slightly larger bits than the first fat addition. This will build flakiness.

As the pastry bakes it becomes flaky because those little bits of fat melt to form pockets in the dough. Moisture in the fat turns into steam and lifts the layers of dough into the "blisters" that are characteristic of flaky pastry.

If you must use all-purpose flour, you can off-set the higher amount of gluten by adding a little more fat to the recipe, adding it into the first addition of fat.

Adding an acidic ingredient, such as vinegar, brings one more tenderizer into the mixture of ingredients and would work well if using National Brand (Pillsbury, Gold Medal) all-purpose flour. Acids soften gluten, causing them to break apart, which helps keep the pastry tender.

If you find a pastry recipe that includes an egg, that is a recipe that will work well to hold a hefty meat filling. The protein in the egg reinforces the structure of the pastry.

Add as little cold water to the mixture as possible! As soon as lumps of dough stick to each other, stop adding water. Extra liquid only develops gluten, and too much gluten is the biggest cause for making pastry tough. Excessive gluten also makes a sticky dough that is hard to roll-out. So if your dough is sticky, you are already in trouble.

So what about oil pastry... Oil is considered a "warm" fat, which coats each particle of flour so well no gluten develops, which makes the pastry very tender; but oil pastry tend to be more mealy rather than flaky. There are no pockets of solid fat to raise those blisters of flakiness. Oil pastry is an easy, nearly fool-proof, pastry to make - especially recipes where you pat it into the pan.

Just don't take an oil pastry to the fair. Oil pastries are always judged down because they are never that preferred standard combination of tenderness and flakiness we use to judge pastry.

Whatever kind of fat you use in your pastry, as usual, it's just a personal choice. It's not about what's right or wrong, but about being aware of the science of pastry making and the results you can expect.

-Grainlady

I think Ann (and others) may grate the really cold butter into the flour using a box grater. This is something I'm going to try next time I make a pie crust.

Teresa

Teresa, grate the butter into my tea biscuits all the time.
It works especially well when I impulsively want to make biscuits and my butter is frozen. It grates fantastic, frozen.

I always use an oil crust. I have been making an oil crust since I was 8 years old though so I have a 'way" with it. People always say it is goo and flaky, I will say it is never tough.

One thing I do, it after I add the water, I only work it the minimal amount to get it to hold into a ball before rolling, I just kind of mush it all together.

That is exactly what I do Teresa. For both biscuits/scones and for pastry. I don't keep butter in the freezer so I just use cold butter right out of the fridge.

Use a box grater, the large side of the box. Makes the perfect size pieces of butter/lard/shortening.

Then just add the liquid, mixing quickly with a fork.

Ann

Grainlady--
Your chemistry lesson is great because my mind works that way. Understanding how a crust develops makes pie crust much more understandable to me. My mother always peached that overworking the dough makes it tough and now I understand why. The explanation of water vs. gluten is very helpful. Last year I was misdiagnosed with celiac disease and learned a bit about the behavior of gluten in foods while I was on a gluten free diet. Many thanks! I am going to try a butter crust and use my grater on the butter.

I have been making my pie crusts with Canola oil for years and always get complimented on the crust. I roll it out using a marble board and marble rolling pin...love those!

I chop up frozen butter...some of it ends up small chunks, others pieces are as if it were grated.
One easy crust you might like that does have good flavor is a cream cheese crust. I don't have my recipe off hand, but I do like it for tarts.

bumblebeez. would you share that cream cheese recipe? It sounds great for extra-special desserts!

I have had the thought that instead of adding vinegar for an acid maybe add a little orange juice or lemon juice to the amount of water you use for a fruit pie. Not sure how much difference the flavor would make but it might make some. I put my chilled water in a salt shaker.

Mary, I'll try to dig it up sometime this weekend.

Vodka also works for the acid....and has the added bonus of evaporating quickly in the oven and creating pockets of steam.
Linda C