I'm concerned that from your original list of top wishes we're missing a coffee area, the Advantium, and pantry space.

You had me convinced the Advantium was going to be a good unit for you...You said you'd use it all the time. I'm not sure trading it for a 2nd UC oven and a cheapo MW will be the same, but I can't really make that call for you. I don't use our 2nd oven that much, so wonder about you giving up the space to one. Although, I'm not sure I'm seeing a perfect spot for the Advantium in either plan...

This latest plan has no uppers? Or just over the baker's table? Very little storage, overall. It worries me a bit, even though it looked like a good change at first. Sorry to not be behind it 100%... :-\

YEA! Rhome chimed in! There are uppers on either side of the hood and above the bakers table. I could still do the Advantium above the bakers table where I would put a MW. The reason I rethought the Advantium is the threads I've been reading recently that stated the need for an MW when the speed oven was in use. Also, I've seen great high end small ovens for around 1K and the Advantiums are twice that. The difference in cost wouldn't stop me if I decided that the Advantium best served my needs. I basically want a smaller second oven for most daily cooking. Meals for two and maybe bread. I'd use the larger oven for most baking and when people come over. I use the MW to defrost meats, melt stuff, defrost bagels, and reheating coffee.
I'd still have my pantry closet in the music room in either plan. It's perfect... maybe 42" wide x 24 deep. It'll have only shelves. OH... and the ceiling in the closet goes straight up to the roof line (no attic) so I could store large overloads of paper goods. So... do you think it'll be worth moving the circuit panel and gaining the extra 30"? Any other suggestions for that concept?
Thanks!

remodelfla,
Sorry to move in on the conversation here, but can you tell me about the "great high end small ovens for around 1K" that you've run across? I'm thinking about squeezing a second oven in and would really like a small one for the more common 9 by 13 pyrex I use a majority of the time.
THanks

I'm happier if there will be uppers, but am still concerned about base cabinet storage, and having the separated space for the coffee...but that could work itself out if you don't need a full coffee bar. One of my get-on-my-soap-box issues is having counter where it's needed vs excess counter where it's not. I wonder if having more by the stove isn't necessary and you'll miss that separate area.

The thing that I would do if I were you, is map out where everything will go in each plan and make sure you have room where you need it. I think that will be a major step toward seeing how the plans will work for you.

In the 2nd edition: I'd have three drawers under the 36" cooktop. The top one narrow (maybe knives), then pots and pans in the larger bottom. Extra cooking utensils in the 15" drawer. Dishes and silverware to right of DW. Mugs in upper all the way to the right of the baker's table. Bakeware in uppers above bakers table. Corning ware and casserole dishes in uppers to right of hood. Trash under sink base since sink will have offset drain. Dishtowels and mitts in angled cab?

Pretty much the same in the other one 'cept for the pots and pans on the bottom. They'd go to the right of the range or under the cooktop... depending on what I choose.
Thanks rhome... love the feedback.

Here's one that could work for us...

Here is a link that might be useful: Fagor on ebay

Remodelfla, I forget the reasoning behind the coffee bar. Are we talking big cappuccino maker? Pod machine? Both? Or a normal coffee maker with caraffe? I mean, do you have a lot of paraphernalia, or just like coffee?

Because I like your new plan, with a few reservations. If you don't do microwavy stuff for preparing meals, after the defrost, then I don't think the Advantium is a poor choice for you. The big question is how willing you are to keep changing out the trays between MW and oven use (the accessory drawer might be a good investment). You might find yourself using the larger oven more than you'd thought--a friend of mine did--and there is a small difference in energy usage, etc., but is that really such a bad thing?

Do you need two ovens and an MW when entertaining? I can feed 25 with one oven and three burners. Do you need five burners? Did you not like the induction range? Most of the below counter ovens I've seen are very low, compared to in range ovens. Are you good with that? I'd go for the Advantium and range in either plan, and maybe take up some of that big pantry with a portable oven for entertaining if necessary.

What I like about the second plan is the openness and flow. Hm...but are you sure about the scale? It looks like a 27" door to the music room? And the baker's table seems to have shrunk a little and I thought it already existed.

But then again, the Advantium needs a full cabinet depth, doesn't it? Unlike a small microwave which is better suited to uppers. So maybe not a good idea.

I'm posting this muddle rather than dumping it because it might be helpful. If not, well, it's late. :)

plllog.... it is most definately helpful and appreciated. Nothing is written in stone. I could get any appliance... I could still get the induction range; I'm just not overjoyed with the choices out there. I do prefer the fluid look of a cooktop; always wanted one (never had one) plus; since the run will be 30" in that section... I thought a CT would look better then a range with 6" behind it.

Really.... I'm more concerned with how you guys think the wall blown out flows, functions, looks. I can tweak a 24" oven (BTW... I'm realizing that 27" has more deals out there then the 24" inch). All I need is something that'll roast a chicken, bake a couple of pieces of fish, cook a small casserolle for two, and maybe bake a loaf of bread. Cooking for when it's just the two of us (probably 6 days out of 7). We do entertain almost weekly so I definitely want the option of two ovens. Advantiums do need to be install above the counter so with either layout; an upper would work with it.

OH... I may be a little off scale. It's impossible to illustrate 3" as opposed to 6" with POwerpoint. The baker's table is 70 1/2 " long. The door to the music room with framing is 33". We can make it any size we want. That room, since it once was a garage also has an outside entrance. I tried to convince DH to close up the doorway altogether and put a door from the family room (by the front door) into there; but that was one concession he wasn't willing to make. That's OK... 'cause then I get to use the closet in there as my pantry. Nice, shallow, and wide enough for my needs.

The doorway to garage needs to be wider. With trim, etc. even a nominal 30" wide doorway is really at least 34" of space. 30" wide doorways feel really narrow - even compared to a 32" doorway. The little bit of "hall" created by moving the cabinets should be 36" wide.

If you want more ovens, consider building an oven stack with advantium and a standard or convection oven where you show the coffee bar. There would be enough room to have a small pantry - like a 15". The ovens would be closer to the baking area and easy to see from the cooking surface.

As a person, um, ages beautifully, uc ovens become the pits because the oven is so low to the ground.

bmore... are you suggesting kinda a combination of the two? Another words... blow out the wall and gain an extra 5" or so for the counter run and push the doorway as far left as possible? That area is only 5' wide which would give me a door way that the counter run butts to and 2' of depth for ovens. I do sometimes take things from cooktop to oven (not alot). I'll have to ponder that.

I'm wondering if it really benefits me to move the wall. I'd love some extra inches to the right of the stove but would 5" be worth all the work and expense?

More like this? Is it a pain to walk a few steps from the oven to the baker's table to put stuff down? I've never had a serparate stack before.

Bumping once... 'cause I don't want to be a posting hog and start a new thread to get responses. The more I look at this... the more I like it. But then again... it could be the cold medication I'm taking talking.

I think you hit a good one! I wholehearted endorse what Bmorepanic said. But I'm not a range person. :) A range is very space efficient, but if you don't like the range, definitely go for the oven stack. Having them at the end like that opens up the uppers by taking out the microwave.

And getting that cooktop just because you want it is the best reason I can think of!! (And you're right about the 6", though a range can be made to look terrific with the extra, that's just a design issue.)

I'm still confused about your two ovens need. Will Advantium plus a single oven, as Bmorepanic said, work for you? Or did you mean a double oven with an MW still over the baker's table? That would work too, especially as most MW's are smaller than Advantiums.

My appliances are sitting in the store's warehouse awaiting their delivery date, so my thinking on them is pure conjecture, but I decided on the Advantium rather than a plain MW because I think it will be a more useful "second oven" for entertaining the masses than the combi-steam oven I got, which has a small, end on, cavity. Again, the choice is whether you'll want to zap and cook at the same time. Because it should make an excellent smaller oven for day to day cooking if you don't mind changing out the trays.

I think the workflow of this plan is better. If it's awkward to land from the oven to the baker's table, you can land on the end of the cooktop run, close the oven and then take your pans to your cooling racks. Same as if you had a range, landed on the cooktop then moved the items. Is it commercially ergonomic? Maybe not, but it's not that big a kitchen -- it's only a few steps -- and it's much easier than lifting from under the counter.

Oh good point plllog! I didn't think about the end of the cook run for landing space. An Advantium and single oven would be more then enough. Rhome is right (as always); I've been coveting them for over a year. I was just looking at them online... they're beautiful.

This might make real sense. DH is building our cabs and I want the cook run built to like a 33" height. That would make an UC wall oven REAL low. With this it wouldn't be a problem... and yes... my body is bound to catch up to my years eventually!

Since the oven opens into a walkway anyway, would it be worse to have it by the doorway and have a counter & upper on the other (baking counter) side? It would make that doorway to the laundry feel less of a tunnel, and provide another little counter space for coffee pot, toaster, fruit bowl, or a place to set a pan of baked goods, before or after baking...just a little added flexibility to the room.

I just woke up from a nap rhome... so I'm dense. Are you saying that you see function in this last one or I"m making the laundry entry feel like a tunnel in this one. I've read it 4 times and can't tell if you're pointing out something good or bad!! :-)

I was only asking if there would be any real disadvantage to swapping the ovens with the '18" whatever' in the last plan, because I see advantages to doing so, while also changing the 'whatever' into counter and an upper, which I listed. Not that it's horrible going into the laundry the way it is, but one of the advantages of switching would be the feeling of more elbow room when going through that way. Does that help it make more sense? Think of a deep tall oven cabinet right up to a doorway, or a counter and upper...Less imposing, plus the separate counter space to use as you'd like.

OH! Now I get it! (wow... that comment just made me feel like one of my students!) Actually, I meant my whatever to be a lower and upper. I figured a little countertop is better then none... I just didn't earmark it for anything yet.

The only problem I see with swapping them is that my back would be to the counter to open the oven door if it was against that wall. And I'd still be right against a doorway albeit one that I was not carrying a laundry basket through.

But having the counter and upper against that doorway doesn't make it any roomier because of the wall on the side...and you have more access to a counter that's open on the end. The part about your back to the counter while at the oven might be a good point...But you could reach in while standing a bit to the side, and also, my island is right behind me while I'm at my oven, so I guess I didn't think it was a big deal.

Just a suggestion I thought I'd throw out there. :-)

Well rhome... what do you think? Does taking out that wall benefit the layout? Which would you choose (this is for anyone ) and why? I'm really really happy with the basic layout. I can kinda see not having the wall and adding those 6" to the counter. It would be a step around the counter into the music room/garage pantry closet. I also thought it would feel more open and connect to the whole kitchen. But Lord knows... I've been known to be wrong in the past!

You're not wrong on this one, as far as I'm concerned. Not having the wall will make everything connect better and feel more open. I do like the last plan best, and if it were mine (which it's not), I'd make the change I discussed above.

So WOW...an oven stack. No bending... 55 on my next birthday... YIKES! I'm grateful every day ('cept this past week when I can't get rid of this flu); that I'm so healthy and no physical ailments; but that can change in a heartbeat. All storage convenient to my cooktop and DW. All baking stuff by the baking center. I get my separate cooktop which is what I orginally wanted, I get my oven and speed oven/MW, and I get as open and functional a layout as possible within the existing footprint. I was being obnoxious when thinking 36" cooktop... afterall, we're 2 people. The one thing I do want in a 30" is 2 larger hobs. I hate how my current electric range has only one large burner. I am forever switching pans around cause i need the larger one. I'll have to research to see who has 2 good sized ones. How does that work out on gas cooktops? Are they all they same size but with different power capacities?

Good luck on the hunt for 2 large hobs on a 30" induction. Diva's 30" has 2 @ 9" and 2 @ 6", while most others have 1 @ 11" or so, and the others smaller...maybe 1 @ 8" or 9" and 2 smaller. I hope there's one out there that you like.

I could not find many 36" with 2, and I knew I wanted more than that...Which is why I now have my Wolf gas rangetop instead of the easy clean, no-burn-the-kids, nothing-stuck-in-the-surface induction. ;-) (As you might be able to tell, I've fought a little bitterness about giving up the induction advantages!) I hated cooking in shifts or switching pans around so that I could use bigger pans. I LOVE using big pans on the gas...on any burner I choose. I don't think equally powered burners are available on gas cooktops, but at least all the burners are usually sized equally...and a wide pan can hang over its burner, unlike with induction, as long as there's not a big pan on the next spot preventing it.

Gas is a close 2nd pick for me. If it weren't for the cleaning issue, I'd consider it. I really enjoy cooking on the gas stove in our motorhome. I do alot of sauteing veggies in my cooking. I don't really eat meat so whatever I cook for the family; I always include extra extra sweet onions, peppers, mushrooms... and I eat that as the main part of my meal. The large one I use on my electric is a 10", so if I can get one 10 or 11" a 9" and a couple smaller ones; I could live with that. Everything has it's positives and negatives.

Our 6 year old grandson spends some weekends with us and I anticipate when we move down to the other house; he'll be with us most weeekends. Long sad story... and he does so well with us (he's autistic). He LOVES to cook and bake with me and help Papa out in the "shop". He has his own set of tools, his own "space" and "responsibilites" at our house, and I like the idea that he can get up close and personal with induction. He doesn't always pay close attention and has difficulty focusing so having well defined "jobs" helps him. The oven stack on that wall (whichever end... I can decide that once I see how it feels with the wall out); will allow him to look into the oven as our bread and cookies are baking. He LOVES that!

I like the last plan too, but see equal advantages to having the ovens in either position. But the 18" whatever counter is going to feel awfully cramped if it's between the ovens and the wall. I'd make it a full height cupboard or stack of cupboards if it stays as pictured.

You sound very pleased with the current plan, and that's most important. I can just see your grandson enjoying his time in the kitchen with you.

As to cooktops (okay, this isn't the Appliance forum, but we're talking here), I think you'll find a similar amount of control with at least 12 power settings, better 17, on induction as you do with gas. Go for the 36" if you want it! With induction, which I've been studying extensively trying to find the right one, there are some standard configurations. The Induction Site is a helpful start, but not 100% accurate, so do your own research. Different companies call the same things by different names. A 10" burner can be rated for up to 14" pans, and an 11" burner can be rated for up to 12", yet they're the same inductors. Nine power levels can mean 9, or it can mean 17 (nine with half stops). Etc., etc.

The 36" generally have one large burner (nominally 11") in the center, flanked by two paired burners of which one is medium (8-9") and one small (around 6.5", sometimes taking a pan as small as 4.5").

There are two standard layouts for nominally 30" cooktops (which in reality are 28+" to 31+"): Either they have the two flanking pairs from the 36" and no big burner, or they have the 11" big burner, paired with a 6" and a pair of 7-8". You can put a 9" pan on the 7-8" burner.

From here the only difference is features. True timers shut off the inductor at a specified time. Some cooktops require you to first choose which burner you're controlling, then choose your power level. For the latter one, train yourself to remove a boiling over pan from the heat rather than fussing with controls. They'll all turn off automatically after a certain number of seconds if there's no pan. Most also have built in kitchen timers (i.e., they ring after a certain time). The number of power levels varies between a true nine and about 19. Nineteen usually means that besides 17 true levels there's a keep warm and a boost. They all have boost. Some are loud because of their fans. Some are loud because of the way they interact with certain metals in clad pans. They also require different amounts of clearance underneath. Some require 12", which is foul! Others as little as 2".

Miele has the 11", has very little fan noise, you can program your choice of 9 or 17 power levels, true timers, and independent controls. If I can't figure out how to get a smaller one that I like, I'm getting this one (the Miele 30"). It's very dark black, however, and will probably show scratches really easily. But it requires less than 2" clearance underneath.

Wow plllog... thank you so much. For all the appliance research I've done; this is the first time I fully understood what nominally meant in terms of the induction hobs. I didn't know that you could use a 9" pan on a 7" hob. That is very very helpful.... thanks again!

Remodelfla, you have to stop tweaking your layout and start construction! (Just me being selfish - I want to see the finished product. ;-))

OH.... you have no idea charli... it's killin' me. But we are slowly trudging along... buying some new equipment for the shop to upgrade for cabinet making. And me... planning, planning, planning,... into perpetuity!!