I'm not great with layouts, but I will note that you have your fridge across from the peninsula and next to the tall pantry cabinet... This is an issue I have here in my current kitchen with a french door fridge and the doors are ALWAYS in the way of the walkway to our pantry. There's only two of us here and yet every time that fridge door is open, the other one of us needs to get into the pantry.

I agree with Ima re: the fridge/pantry area being a problem. For me though, it's that you've got 2 things with doors that need to open right in what looks like it might already be a major traffic bottleneck with 2 doors coming into the kitchen right there. But I'm afraid I'm better at seeing possible problems than coming up with solutions for them....

Yeah I don't like that fridge location either. Maybe okay if you killed off the banquette. But it's a very tight spot for something with so much traffic potential.

You are right, DH is wrong. You're not quite finished! :)

I can't see how much space you have from banquette to fridge, but I'm with everyone else. I would at least switch fridge and microwave, but not sure how much of an improvement that would be.

I think you will curse that table everytime you need to rush to the fridge from the stove in the midst of cooking up a storm. Have you mocked up a seat wedged against wall with only 18" to get into a table? That seems way tight to me. As others have said, the approx 36" aisle seems narrow, too, for getting past the fridge and pantry, since it is an important part of your work area, but in, what looks to be, a main entrance into the room.

Part of what makes me uncomfortable with this layout is the workpath/flow. You often will take things from the fridge to the sink, which is not only a long way, but means taking an armload of food around the left side door of the fridge. The French door works better for a tighter aisle, but for the direction you need to go to get to the sink and stove, this calls for a one-door, right-hinged door...So it opens away from you and can close as you leave. With this one you'll always be pulling the left door toward you, going around, then getting things, going around the door again to close it on your way to prep. It's awkward. Hope this makes sense.

Just throwing one idea out there for consideration:

I take it that the seating for two is a must? What if you move the fridge to the range wall, where the banquette is in your plan. Shorten up the wall that was behind the bench to the refrigerator's depth. You won't have such a pinch-point coming into the kitchen.

Then, leaving the pantry cabinet where it is, put a two-person, face-to-face booth against the wall where the fridge and microwave were--20" bench, 24" square table, 20" bench, all 24" deep to match the pantry cabinet depth. Diners get to look at each other, and no one gets trapped at the inside spot on a longer bench.

This eliminates the microwave spot, though. Perhaps you could put it on a shelf between the upper and lower doors of the pantry, or on a shelf in the uppers on the sink or range wall?

is it a new build or remodel?

I'd put the fridge to the right of the sink. move the sink to the left a foot or so. move the stove to it's left a foot or so and run the cabs to the left of the stove straight down.

put a small table an 2 chairs where you now have the mw and fridge.

then the fridge is in line to the sink for cleaning, then to move on for prep between sink and stove.

put mw on an undercab shelf on either side of the stove.
I'd probably put it on the right side of stove as I often use mine to heat up water for hot cocoa, oatmeal etc so I'd want it closer to the sink.

You guys zoned in exactly on the problem area, which makes me feel better (sort of!). The darn corner is so annoying, but I have to put something there b/c we really need the space.

The seating area dimensions that we used are standard, but I see how the peninsula could get in the way. DH likes it b/c the kids' breakfast can be made without running all over the kitchen.

mnerg - I wish I could shorten that wall, but we can't because it's a staircase wall (stairs coming up from the TV room). The whole reason I thought about putting seating there is because it's definitely the right length for a bench and we do want some seating in the kitchen for the kids to have breakfast, etc. Anything else that goes there is just a waste of space (fridge is there now and it stinks!). The bench for two idea is really cute, but it is such a lousy location at the top of the stairs.

Crud - this is so much harder than I thought it would be.

What's the room to the right? If this wouldn't destroy its function, how about setting a snug but family-size and extremely comfortable banquette into the middle of that wall, partially in the kitchen but mostly in the other room? Have the back of the banquette open to that room above the back height, if you wish, so people seated there can participate in both rooms.

Keep the door between the rooms, but move it closer to the sink counter to fit in the banquette.

Do floor-ceiling pantry cabinets from the banquette on down, where you have cabs and fridge now. Continue the top row over the banquette, too.

Put the fridge along the stove-sink wall to the left of the stove--wonderfully convenient for the cook and still nicely accessible and out of the cook's main work paths for the others.

can the mwave go to the far rt of sink-the end of that row- wall or under counter type...then try to bring frig into the old mwave spot-with the option of r handed hinge type. I think when you get things it does not have to swing 90 degrees, and usually you stand a little off to the diagonal from it.French doors seem to require standing square in front,or not? But maybe even in that spot the french doors would be okay.

We have a similar situation with our fridge--it's in a pinch point. We have 41" between our fridge handles and the counter across the way. It's in the main path from kitchen to dining area to the rest of the house. Is it ideal? No. But it really hasn't been much of a problem at all. It was a trade off I was willing to make to get the kitchen to flow as I wanted it to. I have no regrets after almost 6 years.

The positive is that you'll be able to use the table as a landing zone from the fridge. It's easier to use a space across from side by side doors than it is to reach around an open door to place items on a flanking counter.

We haven't found any problems having the pantry next to the fridge.

I like your layout. I can really picture kids eating breakfast there with the mw, fridge and pantry nice and close.

desertsteph - This is a remodel - right now there's a slide out to the deck where the sink is shown on the plan. Unfortunately, the sink wall this the only wall that can have a window, so we can't put the fridge on that back wall - unless we do a really tiny window or have it completely offset, which I think would look weird.

rosie - That room is... the dining room! Thus my hesitancy to put the dining area on that side b/c then it's sort of silly that we can't plop down two feet over at our sizable dining room table. But DH (and I understand this) REALLY wants an eat in space in the kitchen, so I'm trying to do it so the eating spaces are not perfectly parallel to each other.

herbflavor - we could move the mw, but I'm worried about losing a landing pad for the fridge. We don't really have one now and it stinks. Good thought about the door. I was thinking the French would be better b/c each door would be shorter when opened, but if there's a body there that doesn't help much.

zelmar - Thanks for sharing your experience. It's helpful to know that it's doable. There are things in my kitchen that are barely tolerable, so I'm very nervous.

Do you REALLY need a refrigerator in a kitchen?!?! They're totally overrated. :)

would there be a point to reducing the length of the wall the banquette back is built from, place the fridge to the left of stove, at the end there.Use the frig and mwave wall for a true banquette.You could build the back any length along there and slide onto bench from either end. And place stools or small chair opposite the bench.By knocking back the former back banquette wall and frig now in a run, this banquette gets more weight in your design- more of a feature in your kitchen.

Is it possible to close up the current entrance into the dining room and make a true u-shaped kitchen. Then put in a new entrance into the dining room almost across from where the banquette seating is now? You would lose your pinch point (I think) and it might be easier to plan the space. Just a thought.

Maybe your kids get along like angels but the banquette set-up seems like sibling fights waiting to happen when the one pinned on the inside wants to get up but the other doesn't want to comply right away. At least that's how things would work in my house. So how about this idea:

{{gwi:1840573}}

I moved the fridge over to the range wall, with a narrow pull-out cupboard between fridge and wall. Moved the range down towards the sink to make room for a MW cabinet between fridge and range. Put in a 2 person banquette where fridge and MW were with seats facing each other. Pantry stayed where it is, as did sink and DW. Add pull-out drawers to the benches and you gain more storage and storage that is easier to access than your current bench plan offers (more aisle space).

The drawing isn't to scale, you'll need to play with it a bit but I figured you could have 2-18" benches and a 29" wide table in the same space as you currently have the fridge and MW cab. Actually the table could be wider than that since I haven't included table overhang over each bench. So you can either go with a wider table or a larger pantry or more generous benches. I'd be inclined to go with more generous seating and table. Kids have a way of growing - my youngest is now 6'! - and it would be nice if they didn't outgrow the space.

This puts all the kitchen activity, save trips to the pantry on one side of the kitchen and gives each kid their own seat at the banquette. No "Mom, he's on my side" arguments. ;-) It also gives you more room to access the fridge. You still have to cross the cooking zone from fridge to sink but since you only have one place for the window, I don't see a work around for you.

I think lisa is onto something. I like the idea of the face to face banquette. And if you tire of the banquette you can rip it out and add another pantry.

I had another idea for you, thanks to a kitchen featured in the latest Woman's Day Kitchens & Baths issue that I picked up this afternoon. Check pg 54. It's an Ikea kitchen so no weird or custom cabinet sizes.

Along a wall housing a fridge and pantry, they added a counter, bar height, with bar stools facing the wall with upper cabinets shorter than usual above the counter so that there's more head room while seated while still providing decent storage. They added a bulletin board on the wall, too, so the area could double as homework/communication station.

So here's what I drew up.

{{gwi:1840574}}

The counter can be table height or bar height or whatever you choose since it's free-standing. Chairs take up some floor space but your aisles are fairly generous now so it shouldn't be a big deal. There are a number of pluses I see with this set-up. You have room to add another pantry cab. When not being used as a dining area, the counter can do double-duty as additional prep space, baking counter (usually a height between table and bar height) or a wine bar when the kids aren't around - or lemonade bar, if that's more your speed. Your kitchen is on the small side so having that space have more than one function would be a good thing.

Thanks lisa_a! I like both of those ideas. I'll definitely pick up the WD K&B mag.

blfenton - I came up with the rough layout below and then I saw your post! After reading all the responses, I think it may just make sense to kill that silly leg of the kitchen and move on. We were going to have a 56" opening anyway, so we're not really losing wall space. Downside is we get another corner, but upside is more counter space. DH is having trouble visualizing, but it just might work.

Thoughts on this new idea as a general concept?

Here's the overall floor layout for reference...

In the U shaped kitchen plan, will there be any doors from the kitchen into the dining room or will it be open?

No doors. A pass-through to the left of the fridge/pantry section and an open walkway to the left.

I really like both of lisa's ideas. That face-to-face banquette is especially charming. And I also agree with lisa that the current banquette set-up is a kid-fight waiting to happen. At least my kids would fight. :-)

Your new u-shape solves the pinch point problem at the top of the stairs. But is the doorway too far away from the entrance to the deck from the dining room? I know you have a pass-thru, but that would only be useful if someone was in the kitchen to pass items to / get items from. I think most people would walk from the deck into the kitchen anyway.

I like this. The kitchen layout makes more sense now--eliminates walk-throughs behind the cook.

Not happy with pass through? A "plunk space" piece of furniture to the left of person entering dining room will help move stuff to and from that room--a sideboard sort of thing? But don't allow it to become a holder of lots of decorative items; it's designated for daily use to receive dirty items going one way and prepared foods, etc. going the other. You might find yourself using a special tray to convey.

If you do keep the pass-through, you can access the blind corner from the dining room side--good place to store party gear or your good dishes.

Eating in the kitchen will always be difficult. That grey rectangle is too tight to use for more than quickie eating. We had an odd space like that--a table-ht fixed table attached to the wall and three Samsonite "card table" chairs. It was like eating in a doll house.

If it's just seating for two that you need, use counterheight stools with backs to the stairwell and an appropriate counter in front of them that incidentally also extends the work area left of the range. You might even be able to put a third stool on the end if you have to.

Is this house you envision the U-shaped kitchen fitting into your house? 'Scuse the rough-ish drawing.

{{gwi:1840576}}

U-shaped kitchens can be very functional but I'm not feeling yours, sorry. I think what bothers me is the walk-around from kitchen through the DR that you'll need to do to get to the deck. I'm assuming you, like most of us, grill out there. Yes, you've got the pass-through but that only works for food, not people (although how much do you want to bet your kids might try it! LOL). For me, this would get old.

Given how open all the other spaces are and how easily you can flow from one to the other, it seems an odd fit to have a kitchen that is a dead-end. But this is definitely my personal preference and it could also be because I'm having a hard time visualizing it.

I didn't fully understand your home's set-up initially (although I still don't understand how garage and den relate to LR/DR/K area) when I did the first 2 plans. I've tweaked one of the plans but the tweaks easily apply to both.

{{gwi:1840577}}

I moved the entrance between DR and kitchen down towards the sink wall counter. IMO, the wall between DR entrance and sink wall serves no purpose and that space can be put to better use for more seating room and pantry storage. This move also gives you a more direct path between kitchen and deck/grilling area.

I made the pantry cabinets shallower - 18" instead of 24" - to ease the pinch point by the stairs. I also removed the stub wall between pantry cabs and LR. A pretty cabinet side will serve just as easily for dividing the spaces. Here's how it would look in your whole floor plan.

{{gwi:1840578}}

This is all my opinion, of course, and my feelings won't be hurt if my ideas just don't suit your needs.

This floorplan just seems to make more sense.And florantha has a good idea, unless you need the storage in the kitchen you could make the access point for the corner cabinet in the DR. But there are some great lazysusan cabinets available now and you could research them and maybe they will be good ideas for storage.
This plan and size is very close to what we used to have. we barbecued on the deck and would just pass through the window over the sink. Then the screens went up and it really isn't that far. You have landing space by the fridge and the pass through area.

Have you thought about cabinet configuration yet? What are your ideas for that?

Lisa and I were cross-posting.
If you are thinking of what Lisa a suggests, make the upper doorway into the kitchen standard width of 30". You don't want to expose dirty dishes to the DR. This is what our new plan looks like actually. Two entrances into the DR but that's because our kitchen is now 20' long and 10' wide and we needed 2 of them - one at one end and one at the other end so as to prevent a bowling alley effect.
By having the sink-run counter continue instead of turning at the corner it makes the kitchen appear bigger. It really does IRL.

I remembered a U-shaped kitchen in a house featured on Sarah's House that has a similar LR/DR/K and stairs set-up as your home. Neither kitchen, DR or LR are large spaces but she made the most of them. It turned out really quite nice so it might give you ideas for your home.

One thing she did was close up the window in the kitchen, which seemed shocking initially but worked out well. She was removing walls to open the space up so she badly needed the wall space the window occupied. She used light colors and added a large slider in the DR so the kitchen was quite bright even with the window gone. She added high cabinets to divide the space and hide the mess and to regain some of the storage she lost by opening the kitchen up. She didn't include an eat-in area in the kitchen but she did include a counter area in the DR.

You didn't say so I assumed and shouldn't have: are you planning on using a counter-depth (CD) fridge or a standard depth (SD) fridge? If the latter, you need to allow more room for it. They generally are around 36" deep. CD fridges are around 28" deep. Add in the 1" most require for air space behind them and they stick out more than you'd think. You can camouflage the depth of a SD fridge by building deeper counters on the fridge/range wall in either of my plans (pull standard base cabinets forward). That's not so easy to do in your U-shaped kitchen plan without creating pinch points so you might want to make an adjustment or two.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sarah's House, season 2

How about this U? I turned it on its side, MOL, putting the opening towards the DR, not the front door and LR.

{{gwi:1840579}}

The banquette wall is your existing wall (assuming it's structural). Sink wall is fridge, DW, sink, right to left. MW can go down by the banquette area. You could have tall storage on the banquette wall, similar to what Sarah designed in hers (sans fridge) or in TC44's kitchen (revealed today, linked below). If that seems to massive, you can have 18' deep upper cabinets to the counter for storing pantry goods and MW. You'd have an easier time accessing pull-out drawer storage in the banquette bench because there's plenty of room between bench and fridge. Heck, you could do a morgue drawer ala ... oh, dang, who's kitchen was that in? Anyone remember?

Here is a link that might be useful: TC44's finished kitchen

Lisa...Good job! Love the first idea, as facing is always better than side-by-side seating, and the table can serve as work space, play-a-game space, homework space...Not just for breakfast.

Thanks, Rhome! Coming from you, that's high praise!

I agree with you about bench seating. It's nicer face to face plus it invites other activities. So I came up with one more idea:

{{gwi:1840580}}

I only changed the banquette in this one, going from an in-line bench to an L. I think if there's 24" clearance between counter and bench on the back wall, that's enough room for someone to get past the table to sit down but if you go with this, you'll want to check recommendations.

This configuration uses 5.5' (18" for corner, 24" for diner, 24" for wiggle room past table) to 6' (24" for deeper benches and corner, 24" for diner, 24" for wiggle room past table) of that wall for seating and table , leaving room for about a 2' wide cab before the corner. That eats more wall than side-side seating but on the plus side, there's no need for one person to get up to let another in and there's enough bench space to squeeze in a friend or two as well.

The MW can go to the left of the range, with open corner shelving over to the to-counter pantry storage. Corners are tricky. One way to handle them is like this:

{{gwi:1840581}}
Ruth Schoeneberger, Morris Black Designs

Your tall unit would be much narrower, not sure how that would work or look. You'll need to play with elevations and come up with a plan.

New_2_nj, you wrote in one of your posts that you thought it odd to have eat-in space in the kitchen adjacent to the dining room but that happens all the time in kitchens with peninsula or island seating right near a kitchen table. I wouldn't worry about that. One's for casual seating, the other for more formal dining. I'd focus more on getting the set-up right for a well-functioning kitchen.

If you're not wed to a banquette to supply the eat-in area in the kitchen, how about this:

{{gwi:1840582}}

The island is 60" x 52" (my drawing makes you think the long side is side to side but it's really top to bottom) with 42" aisles on sink and range sides and 48" between stools and 18" deep pantry cabs on the bottom wall. Loads of storage, plenty of counter. Only hitch is whether you can remove that much of the DR wall. I don't know if it houses pipes and such or whether it's load bearing. If it is and you can't or don't want to deal with replacing the wall with a beam and relocating pipes and such, you can leave the section of the wall that butts up against the island and have 2 doorways sans doors into the kitchen on either side of the island. There was a kitchen with just this feature in a recent issue of Dream Kitchens mag.

If you can remove that wall and are okay with stools facing into the kitchen, not towards the sink/window wall, you can take 6" of the aisle between island and pantry cabs and add it to the island, making it 66" x 52". You'd even have room to add a prep sink to the island if you so desire.

btw, the numbers on your plan are hard to read but I'm going by dimensions posted on your whole floor plan, which puts shows the kitchen is 10' wide x 16'2" long.

Oops! I just realized that 16'2" dimension is for the wall shared with the DR, not the wall to the stairway. That wall's only 155", which changes things a lot. You'd only have room for an island one cabinet deep with overhang. No room for someone to sit there. Unless you make it a free-standing island - legs, not storage - then you can put stools at it. The island would be 52" x 27" (side to side dimension first) with 42" aisles all around, counter to counter. Assuming 1.5" overhang on 24" deep cabinets on the perimeter, btw.

Thank you all so much for your thoughts and suggestions. I truly appreciate it!

To answer a couple of questions...
1) We have a split level, so the Den/Garage are next to the LR/DR/Kitchen (as shown on the larger layout), but they are on a different level about seven stairs down.

2) I worry about closing off access to the kitchen from the stairs. If you're hanging out in the playroom or den and want a drink, you'd have to go through the DR to get into the kitchen. This to me is way worse than having to go a few extra feet to get to the deck, which we only use when the weather is nice.

3) The wall between the DR and kitchen is non-load bearing - any or all of it can go. The wall to the LR is load-bearing, so we have to be careful with what we do with that wall.

4) We have a pool in the backyard, so I really feel that I need to have a window in the kitchen. The kids are never back there unattended, but still... it would make me nuts.

5) We ok with not have a lot of eating space - enough for two small kids and maybe an adult pulling up a folding chair. It's really just for the kids or a quick breakfast or surfing GW while getting dinner ready - :)

As florantha and blfenton mentioned, I could definitely eliminate the pass through and make that another entryway, which solves the deck access issue. Although I do like the extra counter space and the protection of the cook that the pass through provides. Hmmmm, that's definitely something to consider.

Lisa_a - I really like that last one that you did, but unfortunately, I really do think we need an entrance where the seating area is located and because of the stairs, it pretty much would have to cut right through it.

I do recognize that my issue with having DR seating directly next to kitchen seating is purely my hang up. It just seems so weird to me, but I'm starting to think that I'd better get over it (quickly, if I want to get this kitchen done any time soon!).

You guys clearly have older kids than I do and I REALLY appreciate your wisdom! My oldest would never try to go through the pass through, but I guarantee that's something the little guy would try to do. He's going to be a menance when he starts walking! With regard to the side-by-side seating, I liked it b/c it was space effective (we really don't have 5.5-6' to give up to a full size banquette even though I desperately want it!), but you're all right... it's a disaster waiting to happen. My kids are only almost 4 and almost 1, so they don't mess with each other... yet.

Urgggghhh, this kitchen is such a PITA. Now I know why they slapped the fridge, sink, and range on one wall and called it a day!

Cross-posted with Lisa_a...

Yes, that short-wall is only 12' 10", so it's pretty tight (can you imagine EVERYTHING is on that wall right now - it's horrendous!), which is why I really want to gain the back wall by moving the slider and I'm hesitant to dump the DR wall entirely. Honestly, we have about 8 linear feet of counter space broken into 2 3' chunks and 1 2' chunk.

One more answer - we are planning for a counter-depth fridge.

Too funny that I was worried about the DR wall and blithely removed the LR wall without a thought!

Okay, I think I understand your goals. Since you really liked the last plan with the island, how about this idea?

{{gwi:1840583}}

I know you said you were reluctant to lose the DR wall but with a 48" x 42" island, you'd still have decent storage and counter space. No pinch points either - 42" aisles all around it. And - a biggie for me with kids in the kitchen - more than one way in and out of the kitchen. I removed the last bit of wall between DR and kitchen on the sink wall to make enough room for fridge, DW and sink cab without pushing the sink all the way to the corner. I'm assuming you're not wanting to re-frame the window so I'm trying to keep the sink under the existing window space. If that is flexible, you may be able to keep the last bit of DR wall.

I put a 24" pantry cab in the corner to the right of the range. You'll have 3 feet on each side of the range. You could increase the pantry and decrease each counter, depending on your needs.

The LR wall helps block the fridge from view from the front door. Some people don't like to see the fridge from the front door.

Now if you want the fridge more accessible to the stairs, you could swap fridge and pantry cab but you'll need to add a pull out cab between fridge and wall so that you can fully open the fridge door, which pushes the range closer to the sink wall and shrinks the counter on each side of the range down to about 2' or so. You'd have to cross your cooking zone to get to the sink, not sure if that matters to you or not. You could add a prep sink to the island but that does eat up precious counter space.

Swapping fridge and pantry does hide the fridge better from full view. As I wrote, some people like to minimize view of the fridge.

Another idea is to have a pretty china hutch to the right of the DW, handy to both the DW, DR table and island eating area. You lose your pantry cab, though. It's all trade-offs. Such is life when space is limited.

Another alternative to moving the fridge is to add a small beverage fridge in the island. Or keep a big wooden spoon on hand to swat kids who stray into your cooking zone. ;-) Or at least threaten to swat them.

btw, you might be able to make the island a little longer, provided you have enough room between corner of wall and corner of island for people to pass through. Recommended aisle width is 42". Some people prefer more and some are okay with a bit less. I wouldn't go less than 36" though.

As the plan is drawn above, you have two 3' sections on either side of the range, a 26-30" section between sink and fridge and a 4' span on the island. Nor sure how much you'd have to the left of the sink but likely about 6"-12".

Back to removing all your DR wall ... most people are more comfortable viewing the kitchen from the DR than viewing the kitchen from the LR and/or front door, which is the set-up you have with your U-shaped kitchen. Just food for thought.

And one last thing. Island dining isn't ideal for young children. But they have a habit of growing up and fast. If you're still concerned, you could install the bar counter portion at table height. You'd have 36" high work counter and 30" high dining counter. The downside is that you lose a large unbroken island counter that would be perfect for team baking projects, homework projects, etc. As I wrote, it's all trade-offs.

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I moved the fridge to the range wall with a 12" pantry pull-out cab between it and the wall. Shifted the range down a bit. You have 2-24" cabinets on either side of the range (or 24" cab to left, 12" cab and Lazy Susan cab to right). Turn the corner and you have a 30" cabinet (or Lazy Susan and 16" cab), then sink cabinet, then DW, the 24" cabinet. Put glass doors on the cabs above DW and lower cab for dish and glass storage and you have a nice view from LR and DR.

Island will likely be longer than 48" so I added an optional prep sink (in red) to it. Torn about its location. That's prime spot for dropping groceries as you bring them in and plopping down items from the fridge, too. You could move it down to be across from the range instead. May want to increase aisle from 42" to 48" but you have the space. I allowed for 60" between island edge and 42" wide DR table with 42" between table and wall.

The other thing I did was extend the LR wall (also in red) to give a bit more division between the spaces.

With either of the island plans, you could add shallow storage to the backside of the LR wall. A 12", 15" or even 18" deep cabinet shouldn't interfere with traffic through the space.

Back to your U-kitchen plan. You might be happier shifting the sink to the right, giving you more space around the range for prep and baking. You could even consider doing a corner sink - not under the window but stick with me - then a 12" cabinet, then DW, then fridge, then pantry. You'd have about 48" or so between sink and fridge (it's my current set-up) and you'd gain even more room between sink and range for prep and baking. You'd still be able to see your kids out the window but you'd have one less "dead" corner to deal with. And wouldn't it be nice to stand at a window while prepping?

Lisa_a - thanks so much for your help. I was dead set against the open wall/island idea, but I think I'm warming up. A couple of questions - what happens with flooring? Do the kitchen floors have to be the same as the LR/DR floors? We have wood floors in LR/DR. Wood isn't my first choice in the kitchen, although I'm not fundamentally opposed, and I don't think it would match the LR/DR floors even if we tried (I do not want to redo all the floors). Also, I'm afraid that the remaining bit of load-bearing wall is going to look like a war-zone relic (you know the shot where you see the doorway and then the camera pan back and that's all that remains of an entire building). It just seems that will look really unfinished. I've tried looking for something similar set-up in magazines, but they never open the shot enough for you to see those dirty details.

I like your U-shape recommendations as well, but I don't think I can put the fridge on the back wall - it takes up too much space and I really want to have the one remaining window to be a big one.

You're welcome! I think you can have the kitchen be a separate flooring than the DR/LR, just have them coordinate. Start a new thread on this subject. I'm sure GW members, especially boxerpups, will supply lots of great photos to show you how this would look.

On the U-kitchen suggestions, I think I confused you. Here's what I meant:

{{gwi:1840585}}

You'd gain a huge section of unbroken counter, perfect for all kinds of kitchen projects. Plus, it puts the big expanses of counter closer to where you'd use it. I have a 7' section of counter that is hardly ever used because it's not close to my wall oven or my cooktop. I'm changing that when we remodel. You can put a dish rack or something decorate on the wall in front of the sink. Sink in front of a window is ingrained in us but that was because lighting used to be poor and we spent a great deal more time at the sink that we do now. You don't have to stick with that if it interferes with function, IMO.

As for the LR wall left standing, handled the right way, it will be fine. This was one reason why I suggested making it wider. It would be better proportioned for the space, IMO. Also, give it a purpose - for instance, hang a great piece of art on it on the LR side and add a shallow cabinet on the backside. Start a thread here or in the home decorating forum, asking for examples, suggestions. Also, look through houzz.com for ideas. Fair warning - be prepared to spend lots of hours perusing houzz. Lots and lots of eye candy. ;-)

Here is a link that might be useful: houzz.com

Did some snooping at houzz.com (so much fun to look through that site). Here are ideas for dealing with your LR supporting wall if you opt for the L-kitchen with island plan. Most of these involve opening up the wall space between the support posts but one is of a narrow-ish wall that is a design feature and most definitely not a war zone remnant. All ideas can be adapted to fit your style.

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[spaces design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/home-design-ideas-phbr0-bp~)

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[traditional dining room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-dining-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_722~s_2107) by boston architect Smith & Vansant Architects PC

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[modern dining room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-dining-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_722~s_2105) by san francisco architect Schwartz and Architecture

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[modern living room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-living-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_718~s_2105) by other metros general contractor frankovitchjm

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[traditional family room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-family-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_720~s_2107) by chicago architect Nathan Kipnis Architects, Inc.

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[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by san francisco general contractor Camber Construction

I realized that I missed the part about flooring transitions if you open the DR wall up. So I drew this up showing approx where I think the new kitchen floor will meet the existing DR floor and how to deal with it.

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I shrunk the island to 40" wide. That gives you a 14.5" overhang for diners at the counter, which is sufficient for 36" high counters (recs are for 15" overhang but it's unlikely a half inch will be missed). If you drop the counter to 30" (table height), it's recommended that you have 18" overhang. That island size leaves 16.5" between edge of counter and DR floor and 31.5 inches between the back side of the island cabinets and the DR floor. You will want to make sure that there is a smooth transition between existing and new floor or it could be an issue for the counter stools.

If you make the cabinet to the right of the DW a hutch, with a coordinated but different look, the transition between the two floors won't be an issue, IMO. Kind of like this:

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[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by los angeles interior designer Elizabeth Dinkel

Or this:

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[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by san diego kitchen and bath Tina Kuhlmann

I shortened the LR wall back to its original size since I think it would look odd to have the floor change not line up with the corner of the wall. Oh, and I added a shallow cabinet here, just for grins.

You could remove 6"-12" of the existing DR floor and replace it with new kitchen floor if you think the transition is too close to the island. If you shrink the island anymore, you'd lose your in-kitchen seating, which I know is important to you.

This plan would cost more that your U plan or either of the plans I drew that retain the DR wall but IMO, it offers a lot of plusses for the extra cost. Setting aside whether you can afford the additional cost, will such a reno over-improve your home? That's for a local realtor to answer and I strongly suggest you consult someone so that you know your remodeling dollars are put to good use. For instance, if people are knocking out walls and creating open plan kitchens, you'll want to follow suit or it could put your home at a disadvantage when it's time to sell. If however, remodels are modest, you may not recoup as much of your remodeling dollars with an open kitchen plan. If you plan to stay put for a long time, that's not as great a concern.

I hope you've realized you have more options than when you first posted. Now it's up to you to figure out which one works best for you and your family. That's the tough part! ;-) Good luck!