One thing I would like to add. If you look at a map of all of the different people taking temp readings around the outside of the city, they are all very very consistent with each other based on the amount of distance they are from the city centre. Its about 4-5 degree diff from the city centre. Where is this anomaly called the international coming from?? There are many readings around the international at -2 or -3 and it is -8.....and this difference happens every single night. ps. I got a horrible answer from weather canada when I asked them how that could be possible. They dodged the question and said that overall in the past 30 years the difference in avg. temp year over year isn't that different from the int to the city centre, which is a lie.

I'd think it impossible to make a 120V big machine without ATC. Guess some might handle a cold fill, but then you could end up with a 3+ hour cycle depending on fill temp and target temp. Internal heater or not, a 120V uber-sized machine without ATC is a non-starter. It needs ATC to get as close as possible and then use it's internal heater to give it that extra boost to the target temp (the exception to this rule would be the profile wash cycles available in machines from Sears and Bosch). The uber-machines get challenged when you ask for anything greater than warm (104F). For example on the W4840 when asking for a "Hot" (140F) wash in "Normal" cycle (internal heater not used) with the DHW source set at 131F, the fill temperature ended up being 109F. The washer isn't right next to the DHW tank, but it has a dedicated insulated PEX line that's about 35 ft long and you feel the brass fitting near the hose connection getting hot within 15 seconds of the hot water starting to flow. The problem is your starting with a washer drum and clothing sitting at room temp (68F) or colder (if you've just finished a previous load) and they don't fill with that much water. I've sensed in this case the machine only called on the hot line during the fill. The W4840 seems to have a very good ATC system that does the best it can, but it can't defy physics. If it could be made to fill with more water it would certainly get closer to the target. Checking an old spreadsheet put together once the other data I have shows: LG Steamwasher- Sanitary=158F, Hot=122F, Warm=104F, Cold=86F. Not sure if this source of data came from a user manual, service manual or phone conversation with presales support. The Whirlpool/Kenmore machines are largely undocumented with regard to temperatures. I've seen wildly different accounts regarding these machines and their temperatures the most bizzare being a person once writing that Whirlpool said a "warm" wash could in-fact be as low as 80F.

My WF218 that I did the original testing on is still going strong (just did three loads on this fine Saturday afternoon). My routine has adapted as follows: -Tankless hot water heater set to 140F. One of the benefits of tankless is no wasted energy on standby losses with higher setting. I don't run higher for risk of scalding my toddler in the tub or shower. -I don't have a laundry sink, but just noting that if I had one, like Todd above I would prime the hot water to get the standing cold water out of the pipes. I do this for my kitchen dishwasher, which is quite far from the water heater. -I have the cold water shutoff throttled down. It seems like the Samsung's still pull some from the cold water supply when you are filling for warm or hot. Not sure if this really helps, but I do feel like throttling it down nets more from the hot supply. Like someone mentioned you can't shut off cold completely, plus you need it for the rinses anyway. -I try to wash in larger loads, as the larger loads fill more water, and thus the cold standing water in the pipes becomes diluted with more hot water. -Lastly, since we don't wash towels separately, my wife doesn't use the Towels mode, and so when I do the laundry, I've basically taken over Towels mode as my full Manual mode. It has full access to all temps and settings, and will remember my last used settings, which I'll run 80% of the time in H/C, to net about a 120F wash for most laundry including colors. A 130F or 140F option would definitely be nice, but I've been OK with the 120F washes.

This article outlines some of the effects of water temperature on cleaning performance in a clothes washer - specifically, the removal of various types of stains. The experimental data below serves to illustrate the importance of proper water temp, and one of the advantages of having an internal heater in a clothes washer (that can reach these "very high" wash temps). [See also the related FAQ article, "Clothes Washers - Internal Heater Advantages ??".] This is a simple test, washing various "tough" stains with a measured dose of a given detergent and no pre-treatment. [Report first posted in the Appliances Forum by Alice (Alice_61) on 22 September 2002 in the "Technical Suds Part 2" thread - thanks, Alice!]: ------------------------------ The effect of temperature on stain removal in the Miele W1918A washer I washed a stain strip with a 10 lb. load of cottons and 2 oz (by weight) of Tide HE powder in the Intensive Cotton cycle, using each of the available temperatures on the Miele W1918A: 85F (30C), 105F (40C), 120F (50C), 140F (60C), 155F (70C), 180F (80C), and 190F (90C). RESULTS First, a few general comments before I get into the particulars of specific stains: 1. Before these stain tests, I had choosen wash temperatues strictly according to the user's guide. Because we have so few whites, I had never done a wash above 140F. I was willing to go to higher temperatures with the test load, because it consisted of old clothes and rag material. After trying the 190F wash, I was very impressed at how colorfast most items were. There were a couple of things that colored the drain water (colored jeans), so I replaced them with other items for the test load. 2. The white background of the stain swatches was much whiter at the higher wash temperatures. This didn't become too noticable until 155F, and increased to a very bright white at 190F. It seems from this and the better stain removal of certain stains, that the bleach was becoming more active at higher temperatures. 3. I used some old, cheap (the 12/$3.00 type) wash clothes for the test load. We had gotten to the point of using them as cleaning clothes. After about 25 washings with the test load, many at high temperatures and some with considerable detergent doses, these wash clothes were very clean and bright. I happened to find some identical wash clothes stashed away and compared them to these very washed ones. Not only were the very washed ones much cleaner and brighter than the old ones, they did not seem any more faded than the old ones. In fact, they looked a whole lot better. Perhaps greying of the old washclothes made them seem less colored. I think this and #1 alleviates my concern about fading at high temperatures, at least for colorfast items. 4. The detergent perfume smell is considerably reduced by washing at high temperature. I didn't really notice this until the last two loads (180 and 190F) so I can't say exactly at which temperature this occured. SPECIFIC STAINS Blueberry juice and grape juice: These stains certainly responded well to increased temperature. I'll describe the results for blueberry juice. Grape juice is similar. At 85 and 120F, the stain was not oxidized (it remained blue) and not much was removed. At 120F oxidation started (turned brown) and the stain was lighter, though still with distinct edges at 120. At 155F and above, the stain was lighter and more diffuse. By 190F, the stain was still a light brown but one has to look for it. Tomato sauce: This stain also benefited from heat. At 85F, it was a yellow stain. It got progressively lighter up to 155F, then stayed about the same: a light, but still noticable stain. In another test, the remainder of this stain was removed by soaking in a sodium percarbonate solution. Avacado: This oily stain also benfited from heat. It progressed from a fairly dark grey-green at 85F to a much lighter shade at 180F. Grass stain: This result was interesting to me because it was not what I expected. I had expected that grass stain would do better at a low temperature, since it is a protein based stain. However, the stains from 85 to 140F varied some in intensity, but were visible. The stains at 155F and above were not visible. Blood: Likewise, this protein based stain was almost, but not completely removed at 85, 105, and 120F. It was completely removed at higher temperatures. In addition, the white was quite a bit whiter at higher tempertures. Chocolate syrup: All the washes left about the same intensity stain, faint, but clearly visable. In a different experiment, I was able to remove the remaining chocolate stain by soaking it in a sodium percarbonate solution. Dirt (clay): This common stain proved to be a very difficult stain to remove completely. The stain seemed to show a little response to temperature. The stain left for 85, 105, and 120F were a prominent orange. It was slightly better for 140 and 155F. For 180 and 190F, the stain was better, but still noticeable. Later bleaching with sodium percarbonate did not improve the stain. Soaking in white vinegar afterward did not, either. I plan to try a rust remover and a couple of pretreatments. Used motor oil: This is a really tough stain. As expected, the stain improved with higher temperatured. At 85F, the stain was quite dark and by 190F, it was about 1/2 as dark, but still quite noticeable. SUMMARY Stain removal of all of the stains, with the exception of chocolate syrup improved at higher temperatures, often temperatures above that usually recommended for colored clothing. I would like to find an easy way to test for colorfastness, since high temperature is a powerful stain removal aid. In choosing between washers with various top temperatures, it is useful to know what difference in stain removal the top temperature might make. For those of us challanged weekly by stained laundry, it seems a very high temperature would be a plus. Alice ------------------------------ [first added to Appliances FAQ: 21 October 2002] [added to Laundry FAQ: 21 May 2003]