What you initially made is a "Mother" - or on-going Starter, which is a living thing. By taking out 1cup and adding new "food" to the Mother/starter you keep it alive. You always need to add back whatever amount "you stole". If you don't want to continue making this bread you can either just use it up or toss the remainder.

Thanks, westelle. We understood feeding the starter. Let me see if I can formulate questions.

We made the starter 3 days ago. When do we feed it? Do we feed it and put it back in the fridge? Do we need to remove a portion before we feed again?

Ah! I've spent my Spring and Summer feeding starters. :)

Mine are wild yeast sourdough, but the principle is the same. If you don't plan to make this every week, however, it would be easier to make it a new starter each time, since you're using commercial yeast, rather than feeding it all the time and only baking the bread on a blue moon.

So, to make your bread, about 8 hours before you want to start making your dough take the starter out if it's in the fridge and feed it. If it's in a jar, move it into a small glass mixing bowl or measuring cup (at least double the size of the starter) to make it much easier to work. Leave it out on the counter but away from sunlight and heating appliances, covered with plastic wrap if your bowl doesn't have a cover. The warm water should be baby bottle warm not hot enough to kill the yeast. It'll be easier to mix if you add the water to the starter first, then add the potatoes and sugar.

Timing is a bit weird. It all depends on how active the yeast is and how warm the room is. It'll take awhile to wake up. Then it'll start to bubble. When it is very bubbly and frothy, you can use it. I haven't done one of these sugar feeds. There is a peak, however. If it has grown and starts sinking, use it right away, or do a delay feeding (next paragraph).

If you need to delay making your bread until tomorrow or the next day, for whatever reason, remove the 1 cup, as instructed, and feed the starter again about 12 hours after the first feed, and leave it out. Discard the extra cup.

Don't put the starter back in the fridge until you've made your dough. If you take it out just to feed it after your five days, discard that one cup, feed, and put it back in the fridge. The instructions don't say to after the first baking, but I always put my starters in the fridge right after feeding, so they have plenty to nibble while they're hibernating, so after separating the amount for the dough, I'd feed, then put the remainder in the fridge. This might not be necessary, however, since you're feeding pure sugar and starch. You'll have to feel that one out for yourself. If it looks hungry, feed it.

There are two reasons why you're removing the cup before feeding ("throw away 1 cup" if you're not baking with it). If you didn't, you'd soon have gallons of starter. And if you grow the starter, you have to give more food to the larger volume. I'd stick to the recipe, at least at first. "Depleting the starter" means the yeast will eat up all the sugars and start to die. It'll also make alcohol while doing so. :) You can pour that off or stir it in, if that happens, or just start over with a new packet of yeast.

This recipe sounds like a variation of what they used to call "Batter Bread". It's very sweet. Where it says "corn oil", remember that it's an old recipe. Any good, neutral flavored cooking oil, like Safflower or Canola, should work just fine if there's no corn oil in the pantry. Gold Medal Better For Bread still is still the best choice. It has the right amount of protein for this kind of bread (you can't tell the difference on the nutrition info). King Arthur bread flour is too heavy. AP (regular) flour should work okay.

Is that what you wanted to know?

This sounds very much like a Friendship Bread. You feed it every 5 days (if I'm remembering correctly). It's usually made into sweet breads, cinnamon breads, etc and you give your friends all a starter, so they can continue the trend.

A few years ago a lot of people were doing it, me as well, but we didn't care for the finished products. I posted on Freecycle to get rid of my starters.

plllog, I passed along your comments to DD. She asked if you could possibly give us your bread recipe? It might be easier if we had a well written recipe instead of trying to "fix" the one we have.

Bbstx,

How so fixing the recipe? Do you mean she didn't want to make the kind of bread that's in the recipe? If so, then, yes, better to start with another recipe. But this is an easy recipe, so unless she really wants to dive head first into sourdough baking, it's worth trying. Wild yeast is a whole big deal.

My best sourdough recipe is the pain au levain in Danial Leader's Local Breads. The book includes instructions for making the starter. (I adapted my own starter to the requirements.) It's a little confusing, but the bread is great. It requires a mixture of heavy white bread unbleached flour like King Arthur's (Gold Medal Better For Bread flour might work), whole wheat flour, and rye flour. Or King Arthur Type 55 and rye. Other recipes in the book are known to have a lot of mistakes. I should say, I've only made it using the weights. I don't know if the volume measures are as good.

If your daughter wants to start a whole new method of baking regularly, the current darling is Ken Forkish's Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast

You and she are welcome to join the starter/sourdough/bread/baking discussion, which is in its third part. The link is to the first, and the subsequent ones are linked internally.

Virtuous Bread is a British site with lots of interesting info on traditional breads.

The Fresh Loaf is another site with recipes, lessons and forums, including discussions of what's in the above books.

Sourdough Home is a homier site with lots of great information about what happens if your starter is getting weird. Not the best recipes, maybe, but great about starters and mindset for baking (may be bias--he does starter the way I was taught).

I think it would be worth trying the family recipe at least once...

Edit: Mind was wandering. This specifically wants less protein than the heavy bread flour.

This post was edited by plllog on Sun, Oct 5, 14 at 16:09

Or just buy a good starter!

Friends of Carl is well known.

I think King Arthur may also sell one.

Or, if you'd like, I can try drying one of mine and mailing it to you. :)

plllog, you are very kind to offer to send starter. I'm sure wild yeast starter is superior to what DD has. However, I suspect this is a passing fancy that she will be over by next week!

I have forwarded to her all of your messages so she can use them as a resource, if she decides to explore sour dough bread making further.

The problem with the recipe as written was if you don't know what you are doing, it isn't very clear. I was able to poke around on the internet and find something that was similar. I think she is going to follow that one. Seeing it also helped me understand what we didn't understand. It seems that you make the starter, then wait 3-5 days, feed the starter; wait 3-5 days and make bread. The recipe as written to us wasn't clear that the starter needed feeding plus 3-5 days more of waiting before it was used the first time.

Well, actually, it doesn't need that intermediate feeding. The recipe as written is fine.

1. Make starter
2. Refrigerate 3-5 days
3. Feed stater and keep on counter
4. Wait 8-12 hours until very bubbly
5. Measure out one cup for dough
6. Put remaining starter in fridge (I'd add feed first but it should be fine for a week in the fridge without)

What I like about this recipe is that it has Granny's notes on it. I bet if you follow it as written, with the Mazola and Gold Medal Better For Bread, it'll come out just the way it always did.

bbtx, the starter you are describing does sound like it is supposed to be for sweet breads. Regular breads and sourdoughs don't need sugar.

The friendship bread I saw years ago had fruit added to it, but the feeding method is like what you describe. I read your recipe to say feed after 3-5 days (where you are now) and then after that fed mixture gets good and bubbly, about 8 hours later (so day 3 or 4 to 5 or 6), take out enough to make a loaf of bread and out the rest in the fridge for 3-5 days, then repeat.

You found something online that treats the schedule differently, but one of the nice things about sourdough is that it isn't exacting. You can judge how strong and active it is by the bubbles. You may not want to bake the bread every 3-5 days. So you can adapt the schedule to what seems to keep your starter happy and to fit your schedule. Meanwhile, it doesn't need a lot of time or attention to stay happy.

This recipe has a family history, so it seems right to start there. Is this bread sweet? Kind of like King's Hawaiian Bread? That may not work for using in other types of recipes. so if she enjoys making the bread but wants to branch out, you may need to try a different starter.

I don't know what part of Texas you are in, but I have some of my starter that is already dried and could send you some. You might even want to try and compare Pllog's started and mine to see which works best for you. I keep some dried as a backup and to share, so it's not a special effort. Ok, I'd have to address an envelope. That's tough, but I think I can handle that for the fun of helping someone else try or expand on their sourdough experience. ;) If you want some, just let me know and we can exchange info privately.

lascatx, you are very kind to offer some of your starter. Let's see how much interest DD takes in sourdough bread first. You and plllog are going to have to explain to me how starter is dried and stored.

DD and DSIL are very frugal (and I'm proud of them for it!). Bread baking is more of a money-saving proposition than a passion for baking, although she wants to do it well if she is going to do it. DD bakes bread weekly or bi-weekly for DSIL. She avoids gluten (no allergy or intolerance, just avoidance).

The recipe is from DSIL's grandmother who is in failing health. She is really not available for DD to ask questions of right now. We are all hoping for her to improve, but until then, we will have to muddle along without her clarification.

That's interesting that they bake bread for frugal reasons. There was a thread recently on another forum if it is, indeed cheaper to make bread from scratch.

Hands down the answer is no, it is not cheaper. Buying bread on sale and freezing it is much cheaper. But those that do make it (myself included) do it for the quality and the fact that it's relaxing, and an enjoyment for us.

Depends on what kind of bread you want to buy. The store band sandwich bread on sale will be cheap, no doubt. But small artisan loaves can easily be $5 and contain nothing more than flour, water and salt.

FYI, I recently read that people who need to avoid gluten may be able to tolerate sourdough without problems if it has fermented long enough. Something about the fermenting process that is said to break down the gluten (thought it still has to be their for bread to rise, doesn't it?). I just read that last night and don't really know a lot about it, but it might be worth looking into for DSIL.

Drying the starter is easy -- just spread it out thin on parchment and let it dry. I usually flip it over once it can be peeled off the paper to speed things up. I break the dried starter into bits and put it in a ziploc bag. To use it again, you soften it with a little bottled or filtered water (the bacteria are not as strong and the little bit of chlorine from the tap at this point will be much harder on them -- you can also let tap water sit for 24 hours to let the chlorine dissipate or bring to a boil for one minute and then cool). Once softened, you start feeding it in amounts not exceeding the amount of starter you have in the mix, so it doesn't get overwhelmed. Next feeding will be based on the total, so you can grow it into as much as you need to use and keep. When you get into pancakes, waffles, pizza and bread, it's easier to use a starter often enough to keep it going. I dry it mostly to have a back up and would have lost mine when we were helping my dad if I hadn't, but I also overfed it and dried some just to not waste it, so I have extra already on hand. Besides, we like to share our addictions. ;)

I am curious about this bread -- is the baked bread still sweet or does the yeast eat enough of the sugar to mellow it out? DH likes potato breads, but I don't like sweet yeast breads. I might play with that idea though -- maybe just feed some of my starter with potato for a batch and then add more to the dough.

DSIL isn't the one avoiding gluten. DSIL eats everything and stays thin. DD avoids gluten - and oil, and salt. She is always doing some sort of "healthier" diet. Right now it is semi-vegetarian-semi-paleo and probably semi-something else I didn't catch. However, she will eat a small portion of meat if she believes it is worth falling off the wagon (for example - filet mignon is worth it).

She and DSIL are marathon runners. They have even done ultra-marathons. She needs to live frugally - knee replacement isn't cheap :-)

I suspect that DD is only looking at the cost of flour and yeast. I doubt that she is also considering the electricity to heat the oven or turn the mixer or the cost of her time. A loaf of Sara Lee is about $3 around here, I can't imagine that a homemade loaf of bread is more expensive.

Gotcha. But I'm going to ask again -- is the family recipe bread sweet? ;)

Most breads are not expensive to make. Not as cheap as they used to be, but what is?

I'm sorry I forgot to answer about sweetness. The answer is I don't know. Sorry, but this isn't my family's recipe. I've never tasted it. The recipe is from DSIL's grandmother. I'm guessing, and it is purely a guess, that it may not be all that sweet, considering that most of the sugar called for in the recipe has been reduced.

I've tried to bake bread more often lately, even though I don't eat much bread. I think store-bought bread, for the most part, is pretty vile. However, DH will not eat home made bread unless there is absolutely nothing else in the house.

I used to make that bread recipe for years but gave it up as I ate too much of it. There was a very popular restaurant here that specialized in the same exact bread and made all kinds of variations, cheese, etc, and sold wonderful sandwiches.

It has no relation to any "sour" dough you might normally be familiar with. It is a sweet yeast bread, but it is fabulous. Just don't expect the traditional sour San Francisco type of bread.

Thanks. If you get to try the bread or get a report on it, I'd appreciate knowing.

What is wrong with your DH? How can he resist when smelling that fresh baked bread? Even my picky eater son will eat homemade rolls (less if I bake it as a loaf) and cinnamon rolls. I have to be honest. It took a trip to Disney World and eating a big cinnamon roll on Main Street there to get him to try the homemade ones. My son loved it and we got another, but DH and I were chuckling and told him it was because the ones at home were as good or better and he wouldn't touch them. Well, whatever the defect, it seems more prominent on the male gene. ;-)

DH won't eat homemade bread and Mom won't eat homemade mayo. Some folks just like that fake whang.

There are 3 TBSP of sugar in the bread besides that the starter is all sugar/starch and yeast. It's sweet. I don't know if it's King's sweet, but it's sweet. As Bumblebeez said, it's not a sour bread, like SF sourdough. It probably has a close texture as well.

Technically, it isn't sourdough at all. There are three American definitions of "sourdough" that I know. 1) Tastes sour. Might be traditional SF sourdough made with a long fermentation of wild yeast starter dough, or could be made with commercial yeast and sour flavor. 2) Is made with wild yeast whether it's a sour tasting loaf or not. 3) Is made without any sweetening no matter what kind of yeast.

I think the reason it's labelled "sourdough" is that the yeast is fed and conserved at home, the way a wild yeast starter might be.

Too funny about the people who won't eat homemade food! I have to admit that I feel that way about ketchup because usually people who make their own ketchup don't do a really good job of it. Re mayonnaise, there are some issues with homemade: The oil can smell fine but be starting to go off. Once it's emulsified, the rancid flavor comes out to those who are sensitive to it in a way it wouldn't if the same oil had been used in a sauté. But maybe your mom doesn't like it for the same reason I don't like homemade ketchup: A lot of people don't put any, or enough. flavor in their mayonnaise. :)

I think Mom may not like it not because of the flavor but because of the implication that they couldn't afford to buy mayo. Unlike today, when it is considered "gourmet" to have homemade mayo, I think it embarrassed Mom that they weren't buying their mayonnaise. I really don't know. All I can ever get out of her is she wants nothing to do with homemade mayo.

DD is making the bread tomorrow. I've told her we want a full report!

Well, mayonnaise isn't the easiest thing to make, either. Besides needing fresh oil and being sure of the eggs, there's the whole thunderstorm issue, besides all of the other ways to keep it from emulsifying. And all that whisking when there are chores to be done. Even though my mother had a Nu-Tone, I never heard of anyone making it in a food processor until Cuisinarts became common in the '80's. As for me, I can make mayo, but for sandwiches and chicken salad, Best Foods is just fine for me. ;)

I'm very interested in how the bread comes out and look forward to the report.

I think the economy and culture do influence views of what is better/finer.

Pllog, I've seen sourdough being defined technically as having fermented longer than 24 hours (I wanted to double check whether it was 12 or 24, but I just wasted a considerable amount of time checking bread books and didn't find the passage I was thinking of. Sigh)

People define things to suit themselves. I was talking about the various ways people actually use the word. The problem with a technical distinction on an old word is that it's based on what some new guy thinks it should mean rather than what people mean when they actually say it. Technical distinctions are easier when the word started as something recently specific and branched out from there. OTOH, it can go the other way. We were talking about Wagyu beef awhile back. IIRC, the word just means "beef" in Japanese, but, according to Annie, it means a certain breed here.

Google says: Sourdough--leaven for making bread, consisting of fermenting dough, typically that left over from a previous batch

That would fit the way it's used in Bbstx's SIL's granny's recipe.

Merriam-Webster says: sour·dough: a type of dough that is allowed to ferment before it is baked and that has a slightly sour taste. Full Definition of SOURDOUGH: a leaven consisting of dough in which fermentation is active

That might fit the recipe.

Wikipedia says: Sourdough is a bread product made by a long fermentation of dough using naturally occurring lactobacilli and yeasts.

Nope. Granny's doesn't have wild yeast.

All of these are imprecise specifically because there are so many different shades of meaning in common usage.

If you want San Francisco style sourdough, a really long fermentation time is required to get it to be that sour. The rule of thumb is less starter/longer ferment/more sour or more starter/shorter ferment/milder flavor.

Yeah, I know all that. I was just adding a definition that I remember reading from one of my bread books back when I was getting started. I remember reading that "technically, and dough fermented longer than __ hours is considered a sourdough." I suspect that somewhere there is a school of thinking/training along those lines, but now I can't find it. Oh well.

I am curious how much of the sugar is broken down or used up in bbtx's recipe. I remember reading that sugar provides a "quick fix" for the yeast so it would be used first and the starch in the flour providing longer lasting food supply. Between that and the potato in the recipe, I might have to try it sometime.

Oh! So sorry. I get it now. Yeah, that does sound like a school way of thinking.

So, is what you're contemplating that the sugar to feed it up would be exhausted, then it would plow through the sugar in the dough during the fridge resting, perhaps leaving it less sweet than I'd thought? Interesting!

I'm looking forward to BBSTXDDNSIL'S report. :)

Yeah, I'm wondering to what extent the sugar is used up. I also wonder if the bread gets less sour if the yeast is feeding off the simple sugar and not having to break down the more complex starches. I know just enough to question and not enough to answer. LOL So I may have to experiment, but later. I have a few other projects going right now.

Interesting! The fat and happy hypothesis! Grainlady probably knows, but I'd love to hear about your experiment when/if you do it!

DD's bread is rising - 2 loaves and a pan of rolls. We may have an answer to the "sweetness" question by this evening!

Here it is!

{{gwi:2075459}}

{{gwi:2075460}}

I asked if it tasted sweet. The answer was "it tastes good." DD is in the middle of cooking dinner so she's not too chatty right now.

I thought the interior would be more holey. Looks pretty dense to me. She let it rise all day.

.They look good! There are holes! They'd show more if it were sliced with a bread knife. There isn't enough hydration for lacey.

I'm so glad to know that they taste good. That's the important part!

I'm anxious to hear if she is planning to keep the starter going and make this bread again.

Yes, as long as it tastes good, it is a bread success. Look forward to further reports.