Do you think a crock pot could be modified for this purpose? Hmm....

"Posted by barnmom ----- Interesting stuff. I've become sensitive to garlic recently. Generally I avoid large amounts for social and physical reasons. I'll watch for this to cross my path so I can try it."

Well, I want to let you know that it is not a substitute for fresh garlic in recipes. They are that different. Just like raisins are not a substitute for grapes. I have served dishes to many people, I have yet to find someone who didn't like it. Of course, taste is very subjective. I would love to hear your experience once you have try it.

"Posted by moosemac ------ Do you think a crock pot could be modified for this purpose? Hmm...."

I don't know because I have not tried it. However, I am not sure how a crock pot can maintain good uniform temperature throughout inside the pot and also maintain a high degree of humidity for about 45 days.
My device, with internal circulating fans, can keep a constant temperature uniformly within two degrees and a humidity at about 98%. The device is so heavily insulated that it uses very little electricity to run.

dcarch

I didn't expect a substitute for fresh garlic, and wouldn't want one! As roasted garlic acquires a sweetness and character very unlike fresh garlic, I would expect something of that nature only intensified. I don't seek out raw onions or garlic, I don't care for either unless they are present in very small amounts and/or consumed among friends. :) My health is excellent in spite of my long-term avoidance of garlic and onions.

There are several types of fermentation. Lindac mentioned the two most familiar types of food fermentation, yeast based to produce alcohol or carbon dioxide and bacteria based to produce lactic or acetic acid. It isn't clear, from what little I have learned in the past few hours, what is going on with the garlic. Because of the use of heat, I suspect it might be something regulated by enzymes, like mashing grains to convert starch molecules sugar molecules prior to fermenting beer. There are enzymes which are active at 150 - 158 degrees F which produce unfermentable sugars in making high gravity beers. Maybe black garlic is produced that way. It will be interesting to find out.

Jim

"When you think of Chinese food, you think of delicious food with copious amounts of MSG in a takeout box."

Maybe you do, but I don't nor do I know anyone who does. I live in LA, and the San Gabriel Valley is home to the most amazing variety of Chinese restaurants in the world (beating mainland China due to the inclusion of Taiwanese places.)
Black garlic? Why?

ideefixe,

Don't take that comment too seriously. I just came back from LA. I have been to a few. they are excellent indeed. I will be in Vancouver next month, I think there are plenty of good ones there also. more than here in NYC.

"Black Garlic? Why?" I am not sure what you are asking.

dcarch

What's the point of fermented garlic? Why post about it? It's not new, it's not all that astonishing.

Here is a link that might be useful: NYT on garlic

ideefixe wrote "What's the point of fermented garlic? Why post about it? It's not new, it's not all that astonishing."

ideefixe - from what you have said - you have traveled extensively and have a husband and MIL who are very worldly when it comes to unusual ingredients.

I was happy to see something mentioned here that is fairly new to many people. I hope it becomes more readily available. I look forward to trying it. I gather that the numerous cooking shows have introduced it here in the US more people are becoming familiar with it. And from what I've read, it starting becoming more widely known and used here in the US since 2008.

The article you have linked is from 2008. I'm sure many appreciate the link and the info dcarch has provided. I can't speak for everyone, but I think it is a new ingredient to many people in the US.

You ask "why post about it (fermented garlic)?" Let me answer that. Because it is new information to many who come here to learn something new.

And there is no reason to be nasty because of the fact that you possessed this info long before other forum members ever heard about it.

Best,
Teresa

Posted by ideefixe "--What's the point of fermented garlic? Why post about it? It's not new, it's not all that astonishing. "

May I ask you if you have used black garlic before?

If yes, I really would like hear from you how you use it and what do you think about the taste.

If not, I would suggest you give it a try and let me know your opinion.

I post it because I did a search here,( may not be a perfect search ), I was unable to find anyone who has use it before or talked about it before.

Another reason I post about it, I want people to know that you can actually make it yourself.

I hope I have answered your questions. I had the same reaction when I first came across it, "What's the big deal? a garlic is just a garlic."

dcarch

I for one had never heard of it, so I am glad to have had someone introduce the topic.

Why post about anything to do with cooking, since surely someone has heard about it which means it isn't new or astonishing!

Why ask why? If the topic holds no interest for you, you needn't waste your time with it.

dcarch,

Rube that I am, I had not heard of black garlic prior to your post. It will probably be a couple of years before my friends (other than the ones who visit CF) get word of it.

I checked out the NYT article to see if it shed any light on how black garlic is made. It had no information at all about that. Also, the NYT photos are quite useless. Your photos, on the other hand, give me an excellent visualization of it. Your posts on black garlic have been far more informative than the NYT article.

Thanks,

Jim

Jim,

There is a reason why black garlic remains relatively unknown. Perhaps the name "black garlic” just doesn't have any sex appeal. No one would pay attention if you happen to come across the name black garlic. I was waiting to see if anyone would ask "What the heck is black garlic?" when it appeared on the Palate’s menu the first time. No one did.

However, if you see "noir a l'ail", it would get instant fame. :-)

What I am advising, (in my usual authoritative manner), is to have the Black Garlic Association retain a high profile P.R. firm to address the issues of image enhancement for this lovely refined truffle of the alliums genus.

Who in the world would want to eat “fermented garlic”? Yak!

dcarch :-)

BTW, Interesting thing I found out tonight. Black garlic while is very soft in texture, it does not get frozen in the freezer.

This part got cut off:

This to me is very curious. Has all the water now become part of another compound? Would this mean the extraordinary claim of nutrituiional value has some basis?

dcarch

dcarch,

Who am I to question the theories of a master pot stirrer and rabble rouser when it comes to matters of product image and promotion? (sarcasm alert) Black garlic seems too innocuous a name to me too, given the properties of the stuff. My only suggestion is to come up with something very oriental and mystical. The French, I'm sorry to say (because you're good at it) doesn't impress us so much any more.

As a strictly off the top of the head theory regarding the process, I think that holding the garlic at a certain temperature for an extended time does a few things.

a) inhibits spoilage organisms, which can't operate in the "safe zone" of food temperature, while the processing takes place.

b) either splices or splits sugar molecules (I can't remember which) to create a different sugar, one which doesn't support yeast fermentation, therefore keeps well, while lending sweetness and the dark color.

c) Here I was going to say the long exposure to heat dessicates the garlic, aiding keeping qualities, because spoilage organisms need moisture, and concentrating sweetness. But you are processing at high humidity which kind of blows that theory.

In other words, I don't know.

Jim

I am amongst the Cretins who have not heard of 'Black Garlic'.

And I have to admit, being the Cretin that I am,
I probably would not look twice at anything called "noir a l'ail".

But I have been intrigued by this thread.

I appreciate you taking the time to share this with us, dcarch.
Or maybe not.
Now I have something else to look for when I next get to a big city. :>)

Rusty

Okay, off-topic sort of, but why would "noir l'ail" and not "l'ail noir" be "black garlic" in French?

it's "ail noir" in french !!

That's what I thought it would be. Hey, Mitch, good to hear from you again!

Very cool dcarch! I've been seeing black garlic used and spoken about for a while, but haven't experienced any first hand. Glad to know more about it and very glad to know you are making it. I think there are a number of ways things ferment themselves and perhaps even some we aren't quite aware of yet. I do think this is turning something into something and fermenting..lol.. In any case... cool. Hope to be able to try some eventually.

It's all fascinating! I've never heard of it.

I, for one, am glad you posted this. I was very interested after seeing it on a menu. Was it that Palate thread? Maybe. I don't remember, but I was intrigued. Now I know more!

Posted by coconut-nj âvery cool dcarch! I've been seeing black garlic used and spoken about for a while, but haven't experienced any first hand. Glad to know more about it and very glad to know you are making it. -----.â

Thanks coccnut-nj. This is something which will be more popular soon, now that the famous chefs are using it on TV.

Posted by rob333 "----I, for one, am glad you posted this. I was very interested after seeing it on a menu. Was it that Palate thread? Maybe. I don't remember, but I was intrigued. Now I know more!â

Thanks rob333. Yes indeed it was on Palateâs first menu. Thatâs what prompted me to feel that perhaps they are worth trying out.

dcarch

I checked their menu tonight, they have black garlic again:

Sea Scallops, Porcini Dust, âClam Sauceâ, Black Garlic Tagliatelle, Micro Chervil, Black Truffle

very interesting and dramatic dish. I did something similar, without the black truffle and porcini.

It would be nice to try theirs out.

dcarch

darch,

The problem I have with that sort of menu description is that it seems to give equal importance to all the ingredients. I don't know which are the major elements, minor elements or incidental elements of the dish.

Are the ingredients listed in order of importance? Apparently not. That would make the porcini dust more important than the clam sauce and the taagliatelle. It leaves me guessing. Not very helpful.

For me it would be better to just name the major elements (maybe just "Sea Scallops with Black Garlic Tagliatelle" if that's what it is) and let me discover the minor and incidental ones when the dish is delivered. Or maybe "Sea Scallops with Black Garlic Tagliatelle" in large font and the other ingredients in a small font.

Jim

Thanks,dcarch for this thread. All new to me. Don't leave my cocoon enough to be exposed to "magical" foods new to me. I'm fastcinated with foreign grocers but they don't make any sense unless someone creates a discussion thread about ingredients. Those pics were a great addition to this discussion as well.

Jim, I donât disagree with your view about the menu. I disagree with you that it should be the only criteria used to judge the quality of a restaurant. I have been to many super restaurants with much more ridiculous menus.

If I were in charge of the restaurant industry, I would require all restaurants to post pictures of the dishes they are featuring. Bad plating is always a giveaway of bad chefs (for restaurants of a up-scale class), not bad writing.

On a different note. Based on the ingredients of that dish, they probably are not making much money on it. Black truffles, sea scallops, black garlic! The garlic alone is a few dollars. A very labor intensive dish also.

Posted by terrapots âThanks,dcarch for this thread. All new to me. Don't leave my cocoon enough to be exposed to "magical" foods new to me. I'm fastcinated with foreign grocers but they don't make any sense unless someone creates a discussion thread about ingredients. Those pics were a great addition to this discussion as well.â
Thanks terrapots. Yes, I was totally fascinated by this very strange ingredient. Extremely unusual. Anti-cancer? I donât care. Tastes good? I am convinced.

dcarch

"I disagree with you that it should be the only criteria used to judge the quality of a restaurant."

Actually, we don't disagree on that. So I disagree with you that we disagree.

Jim

Posted by jimster "------So I disagree with you that we disagree. Jim"

When someone disagrees with me, that gets me in a bad mood.

Need to check to see if my chainsaw is well oiled.

dcarch :-)

I hope your chainsaw is oiled with a good olive oil.

Jim

how did you construct that device? how much did it cost you and how much can you make at a time?

The concept of the construction is relatively simple.

You need to have a box that will maintain around 145 to 150 degrees F. Because the long "fermenting" time, around 40 to 45 days, in order to save energy, I used very thick insulation for the box. I think my set up uses around 15 watts of power to run.

Inside the box there is a heating element, which can be any electrical heating element. The most challenging part is the thermostat. I used a thermostat for ovens to turn the heating element on and off. Another thing I have is a circulating fan inside to even out the temperature.

You can make the box any size you want, depending how much black garlic you think you will be using.

I say the setup cost me less than $40.00

Good luck.

dcarch

dcarch - Above you mentioned controlled humidity, too. What is the humidity, and what do you use to control it?

p.s. My thermostat finally arrived this week - hopefully this weekend I can put together the sous vide bath!

Re-reading I see 98%. But part 2 of the question stands. How do you maintain that?

FOAS,

I have a humidistat that I use to measure my cigar humidor.

Becasue the insulation board I used for the box is also a moisture barrier, moisture inside remains at that level all the time. Near the end of the cycle, if it gets drier, I just put a little dish of water in it to keep the level high.

BTW, the cigars are for friends. I don't smoke.

dcarch

dcarch - You know I can't leave well enough alone with this stuff. To me (and I could be wrong) humidistat means a device that controls something that creates humidity, as opposed to a hygrometer which simply measures humidity. Like the difference between thermostat and thermometer.

If we can agree on that differentiation at least for sake of this conversation... If you have a hygrometer, based on your last post what is your initial source of humidity? You only mention the dish of water at the tail end. If you have a humidistat, what sort of device is it hooked to that adds humidity to your system?

FOAS, you are correct in the nomenclature of the devices. However, with a digital humidistat, which is what I have, it also gives you the readout . Just like the digital temperature controller that you have, it can also be used as an accurate thermometer.

In the black garlic box, because if is so well insulated and sealed, the initial moisture from the garlic keeps the interior to that high degree of humidity. I have not found it to be needed to add water until at the end of the cycle.

Very good questions.

dcarch

You guys are so much fun to read.

dcarch... if I get a bumper crop of garlic next year, maybe we can work out a trade. I planted several varieties last fall. We're on a mission to find the garlic that will store the longest and I wound up with a 150' wide row.

Posted by katiec"You guys are so much fun to read.
dcarch... if I get a bumper crop of garlic next year, maybe we can work out a trade. I planted several varieties last fall. We're on a mission to find the garlic that will store the longest and I wound up with a 150' wide row."

Sounds like a good deal. Let me consult may lawyer, and I will have a draft contract prepared for your lawyer to review. (LOL)

It would be interesting to find out which variety makes the best black garlic. We don't have many selections here. Whatever the store sells.

dcarch

It would be interesting to find out which variety makes the best black garlic..

I was thinking the same thing.

Dcarch - it might be beneficial for you to contact my friend Karen who grows over 100 types of garlic. She might me able to tell which type of garlic would work best. She and her husband Mike bought some rural land in Wisconsin about 8 years ago as a hobby farm. They both have full time jobs, but if you look at the photos at their site - you will see this has gone way beyond a hobby. I especially like the photo of the garlic drying in the barn.

I will in no way benefit from posting Karen's link here. Heck, she won't even trade garlic for an expensive hosta!

Here is a link that might be useful: We Grow Garlic

Have you tried cash? She seems to sell it. ;-)

Thanks teresa. I actually came across their site long time ago when I was researching garlic, but lost the link.

I will try talking to them. Garlic is their world, I am sure they know about black garlic also.

dcarch

For any of you that who go to peruse Karen's site, make sure you check out the story behind "Dog House" garlic, one of their newer varieties. Very funny story!

Much of my garlic originally came from Karen. Nice people, good product. This will be year four for some of their stock and I put in a dozen or so new ones this year.

Teresa, I planted two Doghouse bulbs last year. Most were the victims of pocket gophers but the lone survivor was gorgeous...huge cloves that just about peeled themselves. I planted all the cloves, and some Georgian Crystal to compare (gotta know which one it is).

I bought some garlic from WGG last year, they have very reasonable prices and good quality. I have been waiting impatiently for a few months to see when they will start taking orders for this year!

dcarch: I would suggest using an Asiatic variety such as Korean Mountain or Asian Tempest for making black garlic. The Asiatic varieties are generally short storing which is probably why the black garlic curing/aging process was invented in the first place. A Turban variety might make a good substitute if you can't find any Asiatics.

Great information.

Most of the time, they don't tell you the variety of garlic they are selling. I do pay a lot of money for organic garlic. I may have to grow my own sometime. I wish I have more garden space. I use a huge amount of garlic.

dcarch

It is incredibly easy to grow garlic, stupid easy. I would definitely go for it.

It doesn't take up much space either, like squash or tomatoes.

dcarch,

We just harvested our Early Italian Purple garlic last weekend. We WAY overplanted. Even allowing for giving lots away at the marina we'll still going to be up to our ears in garlic. We harvested over 200 heads!

You're just a hop, skip, and a jump from us...email me through GW & give me your address. We'll get some to you as soon as our DS, DDIL, & the grands head home this weekend. Can you make black garlic with Italian Purple?? :)

/tricia

Thanks tricia. You are very generous.
I will e. mail you later today.

To answer your question, I think all garlics can be transformed into black garlic. The only one I am not sure about is elephant garlic, because it is technically not a garlic.

I am growing elephant garlic this year, Will see what happens.

dcarch