Welcome to GW Kitchens!

Your kitchen sounds a lot like our kitchen was in our townhouse (just before this house). We had a large pass through between the kitchen & LR/DR--but believe it or not, you have a lot more counterspace! Mainly b/c our washer & dryer were where your MW & stove are & our refrigerator was directly to the left of the sink and the stove was left...it was definitely a one-person kitchen!

My first suggestion is to checkout the Finished Kitchens Blog, Small Kitchens category under "Kitchen Basics" (see link below for the category list in the FKB). Next, I suggest you read the thread:

Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens!

BTW...cute cat!

Good luck & again, welcome!

Here is a link that might be useful: Finished Kitchens Blog: Categories

I'm not sure that is necessarilly a bad place for the fridge. In that small space you still have a work triangle going. But if you moved it, you might be able to add additional cabinets or an eating bar on that wall. If it were me, I would open up the pass through all the way to the ceiling for a lot more light. Of course it would be nice to do it all the way to the wall, but it depends on how much you need the storage. It looks pretty essential to me.

Thanks for the links and advice! Anyone else?

Is it an option to change out the window? If it is, is there enough room to turn the fridge 90 degrees and run base cabinets under the window, with a lazy susan or corner unit under the white toaster oven?

In regards to the passthru and getting more natural light, take a look at the glass uppers below -- could you put something like that above the passthru? (I had this picture in my inspiration file but do not know who to give credit to).

Changing out the window is a nice idea -- could be too expensive and complicated though, as the current window height is slightly lower than countertop height, and because it's a townhouse we would probably face HOA issues with any changes to the exterior structure. Don't know if it's possible to put cabs in front of window the way it is despite the small height difference? ... but then the wall to the right of the window is currently only 19 1/2" - so not wide enough for fridge turned 90 degrees.

I like the idea of the glass cabinets above the pass-through. Will definitely try out that idea in our 3D design software! Thanks! :)

Buehl - your "Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens!" post is so helpful! Thanks! I will try to help keep it at the top.

BTW Marmalade (cute kitty) thanks you for the compliment :) ... =^..^=

Thanks Aussie!

I'd go ahead and move the refrigerator to the range wall, just like you suggested and put a 15" deep pantry cabinet (floor to ceiling) as wide as will fit (3'? 4'?)where the refrigerator is now.

I think enlarging the pass through would be a great idea. If you opened it all the way, wall-to-wall, you could hang glass cabinets that open on both sides similar to Jade_D's picture for your glasses & dishes. This would make the glasses & dishes accessible to both the kitchen (near sink & DW) and the dining area (for setting the table). Even if you decided to open it up and not put in the glass cabinets, I think the addition of the pantry cabinet will make up for the lost cabinet space both over the DW and next to the range...but I would seriously consider those hanging cabinets.

Refrigerator...I'd make it counter depth and the cabinet above it the full 24" depth as well (standard refrigerator cabinets are 12").

Range...I'd try to get one w/either a warming drawer or a second (small) oven. I think GE Profile has both kinds.

Hood over range...either a Microhood or a cabinet over a regular hood. Regardless of type, vent it outside if at all possible.

MW...either over the range or on a shelf in the pantry cabinet (if it fits)

If you put the row of glass cabinets over the sink area, you could then probably afford to the cabinet space to put in a small trash pullout.

BTW...if you haven't already, checkout Luceestar's very small kitchen...8' x 8'. It proves that even small kitchens can be gorgeous and functional!

Here is a link that might be useful: Luceestar's Kitchen

I really like your basic kitchen bones. My carrots for your mental stew, just pulled as I type:

For the passthrough, enlarge it only as far as the cabinets on the sides and either to the ceiling or to the doorway height. When it comes to opening spaces to each other, sometimes a home can end up feeling smaller overall and less interesting as one glance takes in the entire public area, both for visitors and people who live there. I'd keep a little mystery and opportunity for discovery, a little something hidden and newly revealed as you move about. And design the kitchen so that the view in is a pleasure, not just the view out. Frame it nicely.

Regarding light/dark, it's wide open. The passthrough view into the kitchen could be a wonderful opportunity to look into a little jewelbox of a space, with a color seen in a piece of furniture elsewhere used extravantly. Maybe from a mahogany secretary or the cobalt blue on a sofa pillow? Mostly light, dark, or medium could all work as nicely as your mostly-light existing kitchen, which was not broken up with surfaces of various colors, textures, and light-dark values. I think that's why it looks so nice in its compact space.

Cabinets to the ceiling or or get rid of a wall of them altogether to really make the space feel more spacious to work in. Not varied heights--that'd just draw attention to the low ceiling and it should be a careful design for a specific reason.

The same-old detail on cabinets and backsplashes is uninteresting. It's the whole picture that makes a kitchen special. If you're doing wood, get the finest quality wood and finish you can afford and use any or no detail to set it off.

Looking forward to seeing what you actually decide on.

Thanks buehl & rosie! You've both given me a lot to think about ... mental stew is the perfect term to describe my current state of mind! :)

It's a tough decision trying to decide the best thing to do with that sink wall, i.e. how much to open it up. I'm trying to figure out, if we hang glass cabs from the ceiling above, how will they meet up with the wall of cabs?

Also, what do you think is the minimum inches I should leave between a bottom-freezer fridge and the wall beside it?

I really think I would go looking at appliance before I completely decided on a floor plan. Many times the appliances you choose dictate some of the choices you make in regards to the floor plan, and sometimes the cabinet and storage needs take a higher priority and make the appliance choices for you.
For instance, can you get by with a 30 inch wide refrigerator, such as the FP 18 CF model, or do you have to have a 36" one? Is an 18 inch DW a satisfactory choice? Do you cook and entertain a lot and really need a full size DO range or will a 24 inch range do?
Will a single bowl 25 inch sink work or are you dead set on a 33 inch double bowl? An OTR MW will seem like the best choice for you, since you have an electric range, but is gas an option you want and is it available? If so, then and OTR may not be best.
I really think you need to determine how you need the space to function for you first, before you work on a new floor plan, as moving the sink from its current position to possibly in the corner near the range may be best and with an 18" DW you open up many options. Pleaes, do yourself a favor and look at appliance options first. It may save you time and money down the road.
G

footballmom, I think you're absolutely right. We have actually been looking at appliances and narrowing down our options. Here is what we're thinking so far (all stainless steel)...

Fridge - 33" wide bottom-freezer (22cf ... could go smaller, but would prefer not to)
Range - regular size 30", electric ... we could potentially run the gas line to have gas instead, but will more likely just stick with electric
Dishwasher - definitely need regular size 24"
Sink - Single bowl would be fine ... possibly to fit in a 24" cab, so that we can put a lazy susan in the adjacent blind corner
Microwave - Will probably end up sticking with an OTR ... a fancy hood would be a better looking option, but I'm hesitant to lose cab or counter space

None of this is set in stone yet though.

Moving the sink to the corner is an intriguing option I will have to give some thought to. I wonder if it would be difficult/expensive to move the sink there?

Thanks a lot for your input! All these questions and opinions are so helpful. Please keep them coming!

Depending on what side the door opens on, and I recommend it opens w/the hinge on the right so you can utilize the landing space next to it (or get a french door), I think you'll need at least 3 inches...

I totally agree with footballmom on the appliances should come first in a small space. I like the idea of making the pass through taller, too.

Since it is a small space, I wouldn't stagger the cabinet heights. I would keep them all the way to the ceiling. I don't think of cabinets adding alot of interest as much as the countertops, backsplash, wall paint color and lighting.

If you want dark cabinets, go for it. Just make sure that you use alot of lighting. I went crazy with lighting. Three pendants over the sink, one pendant over the peninsula, two sconces by the eating area, recessed lighting and under cabinet lighting. (My kitchen is only 12 x 14 but I did go with white cabinets with dark floors and backsplash.)

I am looking forward to your transformation. Keep us posted.

You know, looking at the pictures it looks like you could possibly make cabinets under the window work without swapping the window - a slight difference perhaps, but it could work. Ours is just every so slightly above the window sill and, aside from the fact that it will be a pain to get back there and clean, it's fine - looks absolutely ok both inside and out.

Definitely agree with opening up that passthrough. If you want to be able to get a feeling of separation between the rooms, what about some pretty stained glass windows that could be set as bifolds or something? Best of both worlds withi that (separation and open-ness)

I would definitely take cabinets up to the ceiling - you need the storage plus it's easier to keep clean. Add some molding at ceiling level if you don't want it to look to "straight up".

I think you could go with any cabinet style you like, really - I could imagine urban chic modern as easily as traditional, as easily as some kind of Tuscan evocation. I think in a space like that - especially since the kitchen will be seen from the living areas - make a statement and make it be a place to LIVE rather than only a place to cook :)

Just my musings on a Sunday morning - take all with a grain of salt!

Moving the plumbing depends on stuff like where its routed and whether your basement has a finished drywall ceiling. It may be somewhat costly or it may be pretty inexpensive.

Another big layout thought is to investigate closing the other doorway and make a new opening at the passthrough. That yields a nice galley kitchen - I think, a little hard to tell - is that your heating in that closet?

For the window, if you want to run in front of it, you can set the cabinet height down an inch or two and run a solid surface countertop right up to the window frame. A lot of mfg have an option to get cabs as just boxes that you install on top of your own toekick. Using something like an ikea cabinet, you would just lower the legs a bit and trim the toekick facing.

About a ref and corners and stuff - check where you feel comfy about opening the door for accessing drawers and cleaning. Sometimes you can't place it directly into a corner location and have the door open in the direction you'd like.

If you moved your sink to the corner- do you have room for the fridge where thed/w is now?

How many people are in the family? Do you really need a 33 inch 22cuft fridge? It will take up 36 inches of space as you usually need 3" clearance to open the door. An 18 inch DW will do a full meal load of dishes for a small family. There are pictures of a couple of them loaded on this site. The 30 inch range I can see. I also would like to know if the OTR is a recirc or vented model. If it is just a recirc, it can be moved anywhere.
Your kitchen actually looks a lot smaller than 11' x 9'. It looks more like 7' 10' or 11' . Measure carefully.

Ok, so I just re-measured to be sure. I should have pointed out that the 11' x 9' did not account for the hallway closet that intrudes on the space. So footballmom, you are right. Because of the closet, functionally I guess the room is a lot smaller, as the closet takes up space next to the dishwasher. So here are the more specific dimensions;

- Long wall with range in the middle: 140" (currently about 54" to left of range and 56" to right)
- Sink/pass-through wall (up to closet): 87"
- Window wall: 115"
- Wall where fridge is now (up to doorway): 60"

Note that the window isn't centered, so there's only 23 3/4" on the right side of it, but 37 3/4" on the left. This is why the fridge sticks out beyond the window where it is.

Part of the reason we were thinking of "regular-sized" appliances is resale. Not that we are planning on selling soon, but are trying to take into consideration what potential buyers would want. Also I wonder whether smaller appliances might actually make the room seem smaller by association? Maybe not I will definitely give the idea of a smaller fridge and DW some more thought.

3" of space next to the fridge is do-able. I think that this would only allow opening the door to 90 degrees -- I would be able to pull the right crisper drawer out enough to reach the contents completely, but not quite enough to remove the crisper drawer. I don't think this would bother me. Would it bother other people? Buehl, what do you think?

The OTR is vented to the outside (that wall is an exterior wall).

Jillypie, I don't think I would have room for a fridge where the D/W/ is now.

Bmorepanic, we don't have a basement, just a crawlspace. We had toyed with the idea of moving the sink and making an opening through the passthrough, but it would probably be too costly. No heating in that closet, just a million coats and shoes and an electrical box.

I'm interested in the idea of running cabs under the window, but then still have the problem of where to put the fridge. In one way, I do like the idea of the fridge on the range wall, as this would help to visually break up the cabinets on that wall - esp if we get a nice-looking ss one.

Divamum, I very much appreciate your Sunday morning musings :) I agree that the kitchen should be a place to live rather than just cook. I'm thinking that maybe if we open up the pass-through wider as well as taller (ie above dishwasher), then maybe we could put a couple of bar stools up to the counter there. There's not a whole lot of space in the DR, but maybe just enough?

Kitchenkelly, we are planning to go crazy with lighting too :) I really like the idea of pendant lights over the sink area. Definitely undercab lighting. Hmmm a sconce is an interesting idea maybe I can find a place to put one of those

Seems like everyone is in agreement that cabs should all go to ceiling in this space and not be varied heights. Anybody disagree? A couple of KDs (I'm still deciding which KD to go with) have suggested leaving a gap at the top and putting lights up there to flood the ceiling with light and make the tops of the cabinets "glow". One of them had suggested having only the cabs above the range go to ceiling. What do you think of this idea?

Thank you all so much! I will try to post some pics soon of different options. Meanwhile, please keep those ideas coming!

You have a rather complicated space to work with. If it were me, I would get some graph paper and do a basic floorplan of the area, including the DR and closet with the location of the electrical box and take it to Lowes or HD to see if you can connect with a decent KD. They do not charge anything and it will only cost you time. They can get your brain working on a few ideas too. For instance, can you move the wall back where the DW is and have the fridge there, so it will allow you to open the doors past 90 degrees. Since you definitely don't want to move the vented MV(what a luxury in a condo) Make sure you place that properly.
I know how some people feel about the KD at the big box stores, but they do have some that are very good. There is no one who says you must use what they come up with. While there, you can also peruse some of the cabinet storage options available in semi custom cabinets and it may just spark something for you.
With regards to full size appliances and resale, talk to a realtor and see what does best in your area. You obviously bought this place and it needed a complete gut job. I think a functional layout with good storage would be more important than a DW I could fill for 2 or 3 days before running and a fridge that took up so much space that it became the center piece of the space. You will have one whole empty wall where your fridge currently is and it could be used for full height pantry cabinets, 12" or 15" deep. So I don't think storage will be a proplem . The good functionaing layout with usable counter space seems to be more of an issue. Good luck. It is a challenge, but I know you will come up with an ideal space for your family., Just take your time, do the research, and reach out as you have ben.

dr a

In our old kitchen we had exactly what you described, we could open the door about 90o...enough to get into the right crisper drawer but not pull it out for cleaning. However, our refrigerator was designed so that once the left crisper drawer was removed the right one slid over to the left and we could then remove it. Getting it back in took a little work when trying to get it in the glide on the right, but we eventually were able to. To avoid having to remove the drawer as often for cleaning we (1) put paper towels down in the bottom of the drawer and replaced them regularly and (2) periodically wiped down the drawer so there wasn't a buildup of dirt, etc. It was only when we either did a whole refrigerator cleaning at once (maybe once a year) or if something spilled and made it's way down...like the grape juice one of the kids put back w/o a tightly secured top that fell over!

I usually clean one or two shelves (& wall) every week or so so I do not have to do a whole-refrigerator cleaning that often!

Regarding closing off the doorway and opening the wall b/w the DR & Kitchen...Our townhouse had the door into the kitchen where you have it and I think we could have lived with that. However, it might make the Kitchen/LR/DR look long...it might be OK though. The only other "negative" is that you would have the kitchen open to the entire house (minus the BRs, which I assume are upstairs) so you would see a messy sink (or kitchen) from the entire first floor.

As to appliance sizes...in our TH neighborhood, most families were either singles, couples w/no kids, or maybe couples w/only one child. Very few had more than one child. In that situation, I think smaller appliances would probably be OK. I haven't looked at the 24" ranges though, can you roast a turkey in the oven since the oven would be 6" narrower than a regular oven?

I think the more important thing will be how up-to-date the appliance is...i.e., is it a coil or smooth top range? Is the DW quiet and does it hold enough for 2 or 3 people (I would think an 18" would be plenty big enough for that and more), etc. Many people have 18" DWs, for example, I think they are fine. In your case the extra 6" would be very useful!

If you are over a crawlspace, moving the plumbing should be fairly inexpensive.

If you consider closing up the side door and opening a door to the dining area, you get a cleanup wall with usable frontage of about 90" (instead of a usable 63" where the cleanup is now), and another usable two feet on the range wall plus a narrow storage area on the back of the closet.

In total it "makes" about 4.5 feet more cabinet space plus the small storage area.

Could I inquire where you are located? Just a general location because of your name ...

I have just spent three years with a 24" stove - hated it. Part of that was its poor location with no space to either side of it, but I did find it seriously cramped my cooking style for any kind of a roast that might have another baked element. If it were in a kitchen with a second oven, it wouldn't be so bad.

I currently have an 18" dishwasher and, for a family of 3, we're generally running it once a day unless we have a big cooked lunch and cooked dinner at the weekends. It's ideal, really, since we're neither wasting water/energy, nor having to leave stuff sit for days to acquire a a full load. With creative placement, I can get just about everything into it (it's surprisingly configurable).

Just one person's experience.

Footballmom, that's pretty much exactly what I've done so far :) I have drawn a basic floorplan on graph paper (I will try to scan it and post it here soon too) and shown it to 5 KDs including a CKD I found at HD. I actually found her to be great. We are not sure yet which KD we will go with though. As an aside - how much of their time do you think is reasonable to take up before committing to one of them?

Good idea to talk to a realtor to find out what does best in this area and what people's expectations are. We don't have any intentions of selling soon (which is probably just as well in this market!), but I do think it's wise to plan for the future. Even beyond resale, I would like to put in a kitchen that future owners would be happy with.

Buehl, it is comforting to know that others have had their fridge next to a wall and survived :) I think that was a good system you had for keeping it clean. One of the KDs we have consulted with (the CKD at HD) did a layout with a broom cupboard to the right of the fridge, so that the fridge would be further from the wall and able to open further. I asked her if we couldn't just put a 3-4" filler between the fridge and the wall. She screwed up her face and said (jokingly, I think) that she would have to add a disclaimer to the drawing. I understand that it's not ideal, but I feel like I'd rather give up removing that crisper drawer than the alternative - losing more counter and cabinet space on the left.

Re appliance sizes, I would definitely stick with a standard 30" range and go with a smooth top. I will take a look at 18" DWs and 18cuft fridges next time I'm at the store.

Bmorepanic, we are originally from Australia - hence the name, but we are actually located in North California - hence the small kitchen :)

I will look into the idea of moving the door some more

Aussies, tell that KD there is a lot you can do with a 4" filler space!
Some ingenous people have made a narrow broom closet pull-out between the wall and fridge. Check out the thread titled "Care to share your best kitchen storage ideas?", particularly dianalo's post on July 28, 2008 at 22:35.

Welcome to California! Care to say what County?

Here is a link that might be useful: Broom pull-out in narrow space

You stated that you have a closet (the door showing in the pic) backing a kitchen wall. Do you have other closet space, does that have to stay? If it can go (and you can use hooks for guests) then you might want to consider changing the kitchen into a galley style by closing off the side entrance and openning it up to the DR. Then the wall with the current entrance can have your sink closer to the window (if crawl space will allow easy plumbing change) and fridge nearer the DR, plus more cabinet space under the window. If you can open it up you can have any cabinet stain you desire because there will be a lot of light going through the house : )
Just throwing out some different ideas : )
HTH

hi there...just one opinion. i think you should open the pass through all the way to the ceiling if you can. so it looks less like a ticket booth. i like your big kitchen window and your cat. have you considered dark cabs, but with frosted glass in the uppers? that would be reflective and keep it bright. that's a big kitchen for a condo! kren

Thanks Napagirl! We're in Marin. We could perhaps put a broom closet between the wall and fridge, however we would probably need to cut off the window sill which sticks out about an inch. (We may need to do that anyway). Ideally I would like to put the fridge as close to the wall as practical, to get as much counter and cabinet space on the left side of the fridge as possible.

Saskatchewan_girl, that closet is really the only closet we have on the ground floor. We may be able to get rid of it, but it would be a trade-off.

I think I should probably get a GC in to give me an idea of feasibility and cost for different options, e.g. opening pass-through up to varying degrees, moving plumbing, doors etc. That way I will have a better idea of what is really an option and what isn't.

Kren_pa, I loved your comment about the pass-through looking like a ticket booth! :) I'd never thought of it like that, but it really does! Thanks for making me feel better about our small kitchen. I guess it really isn't that small for a townhouse! Our kitty is very involved in the kitchen planning she likes to test out every floor sample we lay down on the floor :)

We had considered frosted glass in upper cabs - I really like that look - but are worried that because our ceilings are only 8', maybe it would make the room look shorter if we break the cabinets up?