yoyobon, "That is a road better left untraveled." I don't understand what you meant by this other than you may feel that it will not help you to move forward and what you define as forward. "...there is nothing...NOTHING...that I can do today to change one moment of my history as a parent." No, you cannot change the past other than to understand it and to acknowledge what behaviors could have contributed to the situation in the present. I don't feel that is nothing. Deep understanding is beneficial. I would not dwell on how you cannot change the past, especially if you are contemplating letting her know of any regrets you may have. I basically don't understand why so many people get stuck here and recite this repeatedly. It sounds too much like they do not want to work on themselves or do the work necessary to make ammends--that point in the relationship where they have deep understanding of the issues. As to making amends, apologizing and expressing heartfelt regret, I also would only take that step after careful consideration as well. It needs to be a sincere effort, not a last resort bandaid to try to fix the situation. People know when it isn't sincere and when someone offers a non-apology, because they demonstrate cluelessness about what happened, stating that they don't understand. They cling to non-understanding in the role they played in the conflict. "I can offer my regrets and apologies...what good are they?" I disagree with the above statement. I think when they are sincere it can make an incredible difference. The problem as I see it as that they usually are not sincere and that there is no remorse or true understanding given. I've also had to learn and to practice grief for people who have died. I've done it for the living too--the new grief that you speak of. I believe that adult children who also estrange themselves do so with full acknowledgement that they are too mourning a loss. In fact, I can assure you that they do. They may just express it differently. "I like to believe that my daughter is better without all of us, her family...for whatever reasons." She may be for this period in her life feel like she is better off or at least feel more peaceful, despite it feeling hurtful for you to contemplate this. I don't know what is going on in her life and what stresses she is managing or coping with. Sometimes people in our lives deepen our burdens and cause more stress to us, even if it is unintended. They do so with their trying to help, when maybe one isn't asking for help. They harm in countless ways which they don't seem to understand. Your daughter sounds like she needs privacy and space and I would give it to her. Be generous with your heart to her and give her this. As for an apology there is the right time and place and it sounds from what you wrote above that she needs a lot of room and space. "Only she knows her true motivation for destroying each of us in the manner that she chose to do it." That is correct. Only she knows her true motivation. Maybe she tried to tell you something, which you couldn't hear. I don't know and saying that to you is not a judgement. Yes, you are not her and do not know what is in her heart. And you may feel hurt and lonely, but she has not destroyed you. If her husband is a narcissist as you describe then she will need you to forgive her. She will have to deal with it on her own or at least maybe she can find what it is that she will need to do without others burdening her heart with guilt, shame or their needs and opionions, whether they intentionally mean to hurt her or not. The best you can give to her would be non-judgement and unconditional love. You can still love your daughter and grandchildren with the full measure of your heart through understanding and generosity--give her time, space and privacy. Maybe what you can do for you now is to consider therapy for yourself. It may help you to cope with this process and grieveing and the pain that is in your heart. Some people don't like taking those steps, but I think it wise to take care of yourself. What you say will stay between you and the therapist and remain confidential, which I believe is a much healthier way for some people to address deep feelings of loss and emotional pain without other people's judgements or personal adgenda's. My in-laws and family members have not taken measures to make amends. It would have made a difference to me, especially if their had been some kind of deep understanding of the issues and if I had been able to have felt their sincerity. It makes a huge difference--it would have for me.

Well, in my sister's case, she has mental health issues, but was a bright young lady. She was overweight since childhood, but she was an absolutely beautiful girl. She went through a stage where she thought she was a lesbian. She liked to say that she wanted to bring a girl to Thanksgiving dinner as her date and upset our folks. I told her I figured they would get over it eventually. They loved her very much. Maybe too much. She met a guy on Yahoo personals and they had German ancestry in common. Turns out he's into White Supremacy, but we didn't know that at the time. They married within the first year of dating. He moved into her apartment and it didn't take long to find out that he was emotionally abusive. He blames it on his diabetes, but he even tried to start a fight with my husband at dad's funeral. My sister was unhappy in her marriage and we learned quickly that mom and dad were NOT allowed to give her and hubby anything. I didn't know anything was wrong until mom wanted to go visit them at their house one night. They weren't home and mom started crying and saying that she wished she hadn't married this guy. It was then that I found out about his white supremacist tendencies and the way he was controlling of my sister. Of course, she has gone back and forth over this saying it's not him, it's her that's the problem, but the night our dad died guess who was with her at the hospital. Dear old mom in law, the enforcer. This woman-the boy's mother-is the one, I'm really sure of it, who is most behind the estrangement. She tried telling my aunt and grandma that our dad molested us and that we were "stair-step" children. We were in fact 7 and 11 years apart in age and our dad NEVER molested us, ever! Of course, madam wolf didn't bother to ask my oldest sister and myself. She raises a child who thinks hitler is someone to look up to and takes a giant crap on our family. I have found out that there often is an older woman in the family that is behind the estrangement of the spouses parents and family. Well, my sister says that I'm a n**ger now and she hasn't let us see their daughter. We suspect she is pregnant again, but they won't let mom see that child either-even though the big bad dad is dead as a doornail. My dad is pushing up daisies. How would you feel if you were accused of molesting your own children and denied seeing your grandchildren? It is the most bull crap thing I have ever seen. I'm sure they are feeding her the whole, their toxic people, line and I'm sure it feeds her narcissism to believe it. God will have to deal with it. I miss my dad so much. This is NOT the way things were supposed to be and her actions have affected ALL of us. Of course, she doesn't even think about any of that. It's all her up in there. Our mother is very broken. I pray for her because only God can help the hole in her heart. That chicken sister of mine couldn't even go in and see dad's lifeless body laying on the gurney the night he died, but I remember his eyes. I was with mom and we went in right after they pronounced him dead. I remember his beautiful blue eyes had faded to a green as deep as the ocean because the life had fled from them. He choose not to get that open heart surgery. I guess he didn't think dying could hurt any less than being accused of being a child molester and a sob supreme by the woman who raised a model SS career man. It's not all about any one person. What you do affects everyone and we are ALL responsible for each other. I loved and protected my sister to the best of my abilities. Our dad did yell a lot and he was an ignorant man. He didn't know how to raise children because he came from an alcoholic dad-but our did was NOT an alcoholic nor was he a child abuser. My children remember their grandparents and I would never, ever have refused my parents or my husbands' parents from getting to know their grandchildren. Never.

My daughter, age 25, went missing last summer. For a week I didn't hear from her and we never went a day without a hello. I finally called her father, my ex, who said he would call me back. Next call I get is from my daughter who informs me she had a nervous breakdown, it wasn't my fault and that she couldn't talk to me. There was a therapist in the background who asked me if I had a therapist and that I had better find a way to seek help. Click and the phone went dead. I sat there for the longest time in complete disbelief, I felt like I was watching someone else's life not mine. I was a single mom for a long time and my daughter and I were a team. She went off to college and did incredibly well, she did the typical college partying and smoking pot but I never put too much into it because I knew or thought she was being careful. I had raised her to be independent and I always thought she was. Let me start with what I pieced together. She graduated from college and was home for two weeks before she packed her car up and drove across country with three of her friend’s destination Oregon and her father. I really didn't think too much about it. I thought it was great. The day she left I walked her to her car and hugged her and kissed her face a gazillion times like I always did and she began to cry then sob. I was so shocked, I looked at her and said you are crying like you will never see me again and I am going nowhere. I love you mom, I really love you and I really appreciate everything you did for me. I hugged her and said thank you and that I would see in a couple of months when she was ready, if she was ready to return home. Off she went and would call from the road. Long story short she made it to Oregon and started working in the vineyards and with her father on his land. I heard less and less from her and when I did call her I always felt like it was an intrusion. That November I had to have hip replacement surgery and I was really fine. Her father asked if I needed her to come home to help and I said no I was good. Next thing I know is a call from her telling me that her father had left her in Oregon with no money, no place to live and moved back to California. I sent her plane ticket back to Florida. When she arrived there was a difference, a distance, and anger. I let it go and we went about life as usual but it started to grow. She got a job, started to hang out with old friends and started to get angry and moody. I asked her if she was taking her medication as she is Bipolar and she told me that her father said she didn't need it that as long as she ate healthy she was good. I tried to explain to her but she wasn't having it. Suddenly everything I did was bad, I ate badly, I slept badly, and I just breathed badly. Talking to her was impossible but I was trying to not lose it and stay calm. One night I did explode and thinking about it later it was what she wanted. Well the next thing I know she is in Adult Children of Alcoholics and telling me I abused her emotionally as a child and all this stuff. Now I don't drink maybe wine occasionally but I don't drink. I stopped smoking pot long before she came into this life. I have my own medical issues and take my own antidepressants to keep my life in order. I go to therapy and I try to live in a calm environment. So here is this adult child telling me I was a horrible mother and blah, blah, blah. She finally went to the psycho pharmacologist to have him explain what was wrong with her and why she was bipolar and started back on her medication. Then she decided to move out. She wasn't making enough money to afford it but I kept my mouth shut and helped her move into a place with a friend who was an addict. Then the calls stopped coming and every time I called her it was a long deep breath of what do you want now. Her birthday came and we all celebrated and I never saw her again. She called me when she was done with her treatment and told me that she was going to California to a rehab there and that she wouldn't be able to talk to me. I spoke to her father and he told me that she would have to work her steps and she would come around. Yep sure her father is not playing with a full deck need I say more. My birthday came and went - no call. Christmas came and there was a gift sent to my brothers. It was a journal in which she wrote total this is what you need to hear crap. But I accepted it as a gift and felt blessed that at least it was a reaching out. From there we texted and she finally let me have it about how horrible I was after the divorce and all this stuff. I came apart, I felt like there was no reason for breathing and I stopped living my life. I went into the deepest, darkest depression so bad I wanted to go to the nut house but my therapist wouldn't let me. I started to put it together and realized I had been had. And I got mad, really mad. How dare she! I let it out and I cried and screamed and I got so mad. The texts stopped coming, the communication stopped all together, she blocked my number and email. It was if I was dead and she never existed. I read two really great books about the mother daughter relationship and how hard it is to let go. The first book really helped me understand the letting go of my child into adult hood. Too Close For Comfort by Linda Perlman Goldman and Susan Morris Shaffer. Then I found another one and this one really hit home Daughters and Mothers Making it Work by Julie Firman and Dorothy Firman. The second book talks about how your child becoming the ex child and you the mother graduate. You move into the space where you are living your life for yourself and you are the parent of an adult child who is able to make decisions for themselves, maybe not to your liking but it is to them to make. I recalled my own upbringing, I thought about how my 87 year old mother lives 4 doors down the hall in her own place and how at 60 I am still her child. The book made me understand that I am not her child in that way, I am her adult child and that I have the power to let go of that too. She and I had a horrible relationship but I never left her because she was my mother. So I realized that my daughter will never come back to Florida and that it is ok that she is in California because it is where she was born and brought up and that is her home. She needed to create this incredible drama to let go of me but she didn't know why, she has no clue to this day. I did hear from her on my 60th birthday and it was polite and nice but there was no love there. She did say that she wants to try to work on the relationship and that maybe we could do session with her therapist on Skype and I was ok with that. She has unblocked my number but I don't call her. I went to Sicily and she didn't get an invite when I went off with my mother and brother and his family and while she was missed by the family and while I thought wow she would love this I also was ok that she wasn't there. And I will go on with my life as it is as she wills hers. As I have read in these books there is more a loss on their part than on ours as parents because they need to have the connection but get lost in the process in their stuff. Well that is fine. I am here and she knows how to find me. I will love her until the day I take my last breath and will cherish the memories of all that we shared. One memory is the day I took her out of the car to go to the grocery store, she has just started walking, she didn't want to be carried she wanted to walk and she put her little hand in mine and looked up at me with such pride in her face. And the day she said she didn't want to sleep over her friends because she would miss me too much, and I said that I was with her always right inside her belly button and she looked at me like I was insane. I told her that when she was in my tummy she was attached to the back of my belly button to the front of hers and when they cut the cord that piece of me rolled up into her belly button and when she missed me all she had to do what stick her finger in there and know I wasn't far away. Corny I know but it worked. I tear as I think about it because I will always carry that with me and I will always miss that part of her, but there are other milestones that I remember and carry with me as well. We all want to go back to that day when they put their hand in yours and you knew that it was the two of you forever. Kind of like that commercial where the little girl talks about how hard it was for her parents when she was born but that once they got through the hard stuff they belonged to each other forever. They do in different ways I guess and we have to let go of our expectations of what we want and what they are willing to give. What I have learned and have to work on constantly is expectations. I always thought she and I would be like the mom and daughter in the Gilmore Girls - best friends forever. never to part. That was my expectation that I put on her, she had her own expectation and had to move across the country away from my expectations to find out her own. So now I live with intentions and that is to live my life for me and leave the door unlocked for her if she wants to return. In closing, I am so grateful that I found this board and I thank you for listening to my rambling on, but I feel like a weight has been lifted because I was able to share with those who know where I have been and where I am now.

ms500 - I hate to hear you are having such a hard time. I too am divorced - my ex wanted to devote 24-7 to building his own business and didn't want the responsibilities of a family to hold him down. This after almost 17 years of living our life around that business which included losing almost everything, including our home. It always came first and so I shouldn't have been surprised when he said he wanted out. I look back now and realize what a doormat I had become and now that my oldest son had tossed me aside, I don't know why I am surprised. He learned from his dad to put everything above family and if family gets in the way just walk away. I asked my counselor why, what I did - provide a loving and supportive home, be the nurturer and the disciplinarian, and not leave, did not influence him as much as what his dad did. His answer was - my son knows where his rock is when he needed someone. He knew who he could rely and he has no reason to believe you will not always be there. On the other hand - he doesn't have that with his dad and therefore will not push him or take him for granted because he doesn't trust him as much. I still remember people telling me that the payoff for raising kids came when they were older and understand what it is to be a parent. So yes I feel cheated in more ways than one. My ex who wanted more than his family is the one that gets to enjoy his family. What is fair about that. Yet I believe that in time you reap what you sow. I know what I have sown and what I am experienceing now is not my reward. I believe the same for you. For some reason they seem to be in denial of the neglect and abuse you took on their behalf because of their dad. Have faith and hope that in time you will be rewarded for your effort. I can say "that" even though I have never even met my only grandchild - because I believe someone greater than me is in control. Good luck and best wishes.