I think you need a prep sink in your island near the fridge. Once you do that you will have nice zone separation. You should include snack and beverage storage in your breakfast bar area.

I forgot to post that -- yes, they keep forgetting to draw it in -- definately a prep sink on right side. What kind of space do I need for snack and beverage storage? The wall looks to be about 9 feet as currently drawn (it is load bearing) haven't picked fridge yet - still have to figure out what size for my family

I was thinking of keeping all the cereal there but my family rivals Seinfeld for number of different kinds of cereal :-)

Maybe just kid snacks? or I was thinking place for toaster, coffee maker etc. and corresponding items.

The placement of the hutch for everyday dishes seems very inconvenient to me. It is very far from the DW (so putting away clean dishes would be a haul), fridge (so grabbing a bowl of ice cream requires walking to behind the table), etc. Is there no other place you could store your dishes? If you remove this hutch, you would have more room for your table.

I also agree with sarchlos that you should put a prep sink in the island on the end near the fridge. That would give your a prep area separate from the clean-up area.

In general, I think you have a great layout with plenty of room in your walkways and lots of storage. I am so jealous of your pantry/ whatever room! I would love one of those. I have a question though. How do you get from the kitchen area to the rest of the house? I don't see a hallway.

The room with the dotted lines (those are the exposed ceiling beams of the keeping room) leads to the rest of the house. YOu can get to the keeping room either through the mudroom or walk past hutch, laundry and enter there - that part of our house already exists.

The reason for the hutch is for bridging the gap between kitchen dishes and dining room where we eat all family dinners.

I know our house doesn't make sense in the modern world but the architect's original plan was to make the laundry room a butlers pantry, make current "office" into new dining and make current dining into new library. That is all well and good if money were no object --- but in the real world I would rather walk across the keeping room and buy a ski house in Vermont for the price that it would take to reconfigure my downstairs :-)

I live in a ridiculously expensive part of the country and house is all plaster and wide beam floors and molding that would have to be created etc. Not cheap to move things around -- grrrrr.

here is an older plan that shows downstairs layout -- although we have moved around kitchen/mudroom/etc.

So basically the kitchen is staying in its existing location. You walk thru the family room every night to have dinner in the DR? Wow...and I'm worried that my refrigerator will be 20 ft. from my kitchen table, which is in the same room.

I'm assuming you either live in California or the north east, based on your ridiculously expensive comment. I'm still not sure though why moving those rooms around is so costly. Would you be using the same footprint for the rooms, just changing their function? Personally, I would rather have the DR near the kitchen, or I'd probably wind up using the kitchen all the time. Especially since yours is going to be brand new and very spacious!!

I understand what you're trying to do with the dishes, but I believe having them behind the table like that just makes them inconvenient from everywhere...A real pain for putting them away from the dishwasher, and difficult to get to when wanting to move them to the dining room.

I'm not really understanding the huge expense for switching room uses, since the dining room, office, etc. don't have plumbing or other things that cost a bunch. We use our dining room every night, too, and I really feel for you with this situation. I think it'd be worth changing, but I don't have all the info you have for your particular case.

BTW, other than the dish storage thing, I love the kitchen. With the prep sink, it'll be fantastic.

Architect's estimate to switch rooms (which includes removing current 3/4 bath (house predates bathroom and so bathrooms were just grabbed from existing spaces) and making current office rectangular blah blah blah was $300,000 -- and from everything I have seen about architects' estimates it costs more. How on earth it could cost that much??? I have NO IDEA.

I know it makes sense from a flow perspective, but from any other perspective, I can't justify that money.

I have some questions about your whole layout/use, but I don't know if it's appropriate for this thread. I'm happy to email?

As far as the kitchen goes, it might be attractive to have hutches on either side of the 3 window bank to hold everyday dishes/ servingware.

Also -- I agree about the hutch -- it just doesn't work -- anyway kids set the table, why should it matter to me if they have to walk a couple extra steps :-)

Another reason not to flip office and dining as it is our only guest room. Can close door to office and at end of hallway past bath and create private suite -- which we need. We are years away from the next addition which will get a real guestroom that is not part of the traffic pattern.

We plan to firm up plans in next few weeks and then start talking to contractors to get "real" numbers, I will ask about the flip flop of rooms at that point. It is hard because the current dining rooms is one of the prettiest in the house, most formal fireplace etc -- office room is awkward.

I added my email to my profile

My two cents has to do with your island. I too am having an island behind my rangetop. However, it was pointed out to me, and I agreed, that 4 people will never be comfortable sitting all in a row staring at a stove. Think about how you sit when out with friends. If you are at a bar, you usually sit sideways to face each other or you talk to each other through the mirror behind the bar. Or, if you are at a table, you would tend to sit around a corner to each other, or across from each other if the table were a small enough square. So, my suggestion would be to consider moving the seating in your island to at least one seat (with leg room) behind the sink and possibly also another behind the fridge. This may mean a change in your island shape, although I think you have the room to do it; I'm told 41" is the min. walkway space between an island top and something else like the frige.

I also would suggest that you consider adding fridge drawers in the island behind your sink, or perhaps to the right of your sink. I am doing that and my sink, range and fridge are all in the SAME spot in relation to my island as you have them. That way you end up with two really great work triangles.

My plan for the fridge drawers is easy access drinks/snacks for the kids in the bottom and the top for loading up on perishables that are needed for a recipe near-term (that is what always swamps my current fridge is shopping for recipes.)

Good luck you you!

I like the idea of fridge drawers but haven't decided how I would best use them. I don't want kids back behind the island getting drinks while I work but I like the idea of keeping my fruits, vegs and "ingredient foods" I am also planning a warming drawer and trash so I have to figure out what fits in the island. I will do most of my work there so I want all my "stuff". I plan to have mixer and baking center in front of windows - I am still figuring it out -- maybe on right side since ingredients will be in pantry??

As for 4 across -- it works for us. I did it in my last kitchen (island was slighly smaller) but I have 4 kids and they are fine sitting that way -- I never seem to sit when they are home anyway and if I sit I'm always turned sideways with my feet up on the rung of another chair or I'm perched on a counter at at my desk etc.

I think if you want to add frig drawers, you should put them in the island with all your prep stuff and leave the kids stuff in the main frig if that's going to be the snack/breakfast area. As you said, I don't think you want the kids in your space grabbing for stuff when you're trying to cook.

The other thing I'm thinking is if you're pushing the room back 12-18" anyway, instead of a banquette, maybe you can do the breakfast/snack/frig drawers back there, as it is also looks like the easiest access to the family room. My kids tend to grab a snack and go eat in the family room. Not sure if that's what happens in your family.

I also agree that I think your everyday dish/glass storage should be closer to the DW for ease of emptying. If you used the upper cabs to the left of the sink for dishes, it's only a couple of extra steps from where you were planning the dish hutch anyway.

With 4 kids, I'm just not sure if I'd want a banquette. I think they're nice in theory, and I know a few people on this forum have them, but I think it would be annoying for people to be constantly moving if the "inside" person needed to get out.

Love the big pantry behind the range area!!!!

What does the current space look like? You've posted your proposed layout and an old layout that you admit doesn't really match with the current...

...here is an older plan that shows downstairs layout -- although we have moved around kitchen/mudroom/etc.

I'm not sure what all you're really trying to do. Are you moving the 3/4 bathroom? You say which includes removing current 3/4 bath. But, the bathroom in the "new" layout appears to be in the same place.

To be perfectly honest about it, I think the new layout is extremely inefficient. Maybe if the DR were only used a couple of times a year it would be OK where it is, but you say you use it every night.

I'm going to make some suggestions here, just to help you think about other ways to handle your remodel that you may not have thought of or your architect may have dismissed for whatever reason. Read it, think about it, and then take it or leave it! It is, after all, your house! OK, here goes...

I'm assuming the current Office is going to be the new "Library" you mentioned? Why would it be difficult to switch the Library & DR? I don't understand why you cannot add a door on the bottom of the bathroom, if it is indeed staying. If there are too many doors there, then close off the one from the left room.

Next, in the lower room, add doors (french?) to the FR & Foyer doorways. That way you can close off the lower room as well for a "private" suite". I think it's actually more private down there than up near the kitchen, laundry, etc. If needed, add another door to the kids' playroom/sun porch from the FR...but I'd leave the door to that area from the lower room intact.

Then, make the upper room the DR. Eliminate that pantry/closet, whatever it is, and open it b/w the kitchen and upper room. You might even be able to make it a small butler's pantry, depending on it's depth.

I would also consider opening up the wall a little more b/w the uppper room and the LR.

In the LR, I'd also add french doors to the Foyer doorway to match the ones in the lower room as described above.

Leave the Laundry Room & Mudroom where they are, and expand the Mudroom to access the new Office/Pantry area. I cannot read what the room is "above" the current mudroom, but if you merge it into the existing mudroom you would have a good size room! (You appear to have cut off part of the house at that point...an extra expense again.)

In the new Office, move the desk to the other end so the door to the mudroom can open there. You appear to have the same amount of space on both ends.

As to your kitchen design...

I love your window wall! And overall you have a good kitchen design....

However, I agree with the others about the dish hutch. Your dishes should be stored somewhere that is convenient to both your eating area and your cleanup zone...i.e., the DW & sink. In your case, I would try to store them b/w the two. As Histokitch suggested, I think you should consider putting hutches on either side of the windows. That way you can store dishes on the left side near the eating area but also near the DW. If you did this, you may not need to push the exterior wall out...saving you quite a bit of money.

The breakfast bar is a great idea. I'd actually make it a breakfast/snack area since it will have both the MW and refrigerator there. Do you drink coffee? If so, I'd put your coffeemaker there as well.

Minimum clearance for:
* walkways with seating & no work zones, minimum 44"
* walkways with seating in work zones--not recommended at all! (try to keep seating outside of work zones/areas)
* walkways with no seating & no work zones/areas, minimum 36", 42" recommended
* work aisle with one cook, minimum 42"
* work aisle with two or more cooks, minimum 48"

Banquette...may or may not work. If you have only one bench & the others are regular seats, then as long as you only have 2 people on the bench, it would work. The problem arises when you have a "corner" bench and more than 1 person per leg is seated on the benches.

Oh, make sure they draw that prep sink in! You want it to be part of the "official" design & estimate. If they keep forgetting, I'd ask myself why? And, what else are they forgetting?

HTH!

Here is a link that might be useful: NKBA Kitchen Planning Guidelines with Access Standards

I appreciate the comment about the shuffling aside from the banquet -- that had never even occurred to me -- hmmmm.

I'm also glad that people seem to think the large pantry works -- I haven't gotten my head around it yet because it is so different from my last kitchen (which I have posted before) my current kitchen doesn't count - can't even fit food in here.

Here is current kitchen - with previous owners stuff

Thank you for all the great comments/critiques. I know it is confusing trying to figure out the space. There are a lot of hallways, doors, 4 fireplaces and nothing is marked that clearly.

There is no current kitchen in the space. It is a new addition. The only scanned picture I had that had the whole downstairs was an older version of a proposed kitchen/mudroom/laundry/pantry - I attached it to give an idea of where the other rooms were in relation to the proposed kitchen - nothing more.

We are not touching the downstairs bath (I only mentioned it as a componenent of switching the office and dining room because the bathroom is basically a box taken out of the current office that makes it an awkward room - it is ok with the "nook" for a desk but would be awful as a formal dining room)

I understand that my layout is extremely inefficient -- however it is not a "new layout" it is the way the house is. The keeping room/family room (with dotted lines representing beams) has a huge old cooking fireplace and was probably at one point a kitchen. It is a very small room. It has 5 doorways and 2 windows and a 6 foot fireplace and ceiliings that are 6'7".

I love old houses. I accept/embrace/cherish their odd angles and strange layouts and low ceilings and sloping floors. I'm ok with that. I admit that new houses make sense -- I'm not looking for that. I want the character and the history.

I also cook a lot. I really like it. I have four kids. I want them in the mix - so figuring out a kitchen that works for all of us is my goal - not making my house work for other people who would never choose to buy this place.

Beuhl -- I appreciate all your time and ideas. I think it is hard from the plans to get a real feel for the house as it is. I wasn't sure what some of your comments were referring to. The formal front of the house is what appears at the bottom of the drawing. I agree that you could put a door between what is the current dining and the hallway that leads to the bath - there is actually one plastered over in the wall I found when I removed several layers of wallpaper -- and I have thought about it but $$$ and priorities come into play and although I know it looks awful on paper it works fine.

I summerized everyone's comments to DH and he said "it just doesn't bother me" I am sure it could bother a buyer down the road but as this is our forever home that is another lifetime away.

Thank you for the minimum clearance rules for walkways and workspace/seating etc. I had 42 in my last kitchen and felt that is worked well except when I was trying to prep and DH was cleaning up right behind me -- we are fixing that with cleanup sink perpendicular to island this time rather than behind --- and yes that prep sink needs to be in there. Architects are really still at the figuring out exteriors stage, rooflines, where the porch goes, mudroom space, closets etc -- so I think we are one more round of this type of plans before we start on kitchen elevations.

How much walking space should be from the back of the island to the table? Should that be 54"?

I think that a hutch to the left of the sink/dw makes the most sense and I think that is what we will look at next time. As for not pushing out the wall to gain space -- it is just on paper, this part of the house doesn't exist yet.

I agree with you on the hutch to the left of the sink!!! It works from the DR, sink and DW!! I think you will love having a large pantry to the right of your fridge, especially if you didn't have that before. Another question, where is the MW going to go?
Here are a few beautiful links from FKB with ideas for your sink wall, if you decide to store your dishes there : )
HTH
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This one seems similar to yours....
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The one thing that struck me is that the mudroom is really a hallway. In a mudroom that size I would want alot more than one puny bank of cabinets or lockers of something. I think it's interesting that a room like the mudroom and a room like the laundry, that are essentially storage and service rooms, have closets in them. It's like they're treated more as regular rooms than as actual storage and service areas. But my main thing is that that's a huge mudroom and not much storage for the square footage. I would wonder if you couldn't switch some of the doors to get a longer run of wall to get more cabinets into the mudroom to better utilize it's potential. Also, personally I would rather have the washer and dryer in the mudroom -- or -- even better, one the second floor of the house if you have one.

First of all I am very touched at everyone who has taken the time to give me ideas, write out such long detailed opinions, give links to pictures, thoughts etc. It is much appreciated.

The Mudroom is not very wide - I think 6 feet total and the space that it is being grabbed from is part of the existing house and includes bearing walls so we can't widen it. We have thought to get rid of closet and open up that area of the room to give more space. The porch that is on the drawing will also become 1/2 mudroom and 1/2 closet and the porch will move up and to the right of where it is in current drawing. We will make 5 cubbies instead of 4 and the other wall will have 2 rows of hooks I think. We could put a bench but I know it will be a catch all and I want a place for clothes to drip (wet coats, bibs, towels etc which just end up on my kitchen chairs right now). I do want a closet for all the "gear" that comes with sports and kids. Hockey bags, ski gear, riding helmets/saddles etc. I am thinking shelves???? tbd

Here is a picture of cubbies that our architect has done in past.

As for laundry -- I would love to move it to 2nd floor - no room. House predates closets so they are just grabbed out of existing space (as are all the bathrooms) and there is nothing left. From a design standpoint - I just want shelves for stuff and a table to fold on and room for drying racks and to store my ironing board.

I am going to put in a couple of my inpiration pictures to show what I have in my head for the window wall.

oh, I forgot. I think MW will go in cabinet next to Fridge with toaster, coffee maker etc. I havent' decided if I want built in or just small countertop behind a cabinet - don't want to create a traffic jam there.

The everyday dishes to DW distance would bother me also. If you have your meals in the DR, I can understand wanting to have the hutch close to the access portal to the DR, although I don't know where that is but I assume that you have the hutch where it is for that reason. If so, I would plan to have your DW close to the hutch. But then you do realize that on your way BACK from the Dining Room, you're going to be going all the way to the far wall to the sink? Methinks you have a lot of walking around with dishes in your future with this plan.

My $0.02: If you're putting in a "prep" sink in the island, then plan to have the dish washer there too. In fact, is there any reason the hutch couldn't be in whatever is the cabinetry that is next to the fridge?

Of course, what that means is that your "prep sink" will become your cleanup sink, too. :-) and the purpose of the "main sink" becomes indeterminate. Would you consider making the main sink the prep sink with the fridge closer to that wall of windows? If you're going to bump back that dare I call it, South wall (wall for the breakfast area) you're going to have to move your doorway down too, so that window wall notch translates down and if you keep your 3 windows then you get an additional 12-18" just above the notch on the "West" wall. That plus the 2 or 3 feet you presently have that is not window, should be plenty for your fridge, no? Then your fridge at least is close to that window-sink. It is also close to the public at the breakfast area. Your 8' island will then allow you 2' (DW) + 3' (sink) + 3' (storage) and it still works.

I absolutely love the inspiration pic of the windows above the sink!!! And the cubby idea looks fantastic too ; )
Ya I hear you, about the traffic jam when the pantry doors are open! I don't understand why it takes DS's so long to decide on cereal? They seem to pick the same one or two day after day. With our new pantry at least my boys will be out of the pathway : )
BTW, I seem to have put some links together as one in the above post: ( But what I was trying to show was the dish area to the left of the sink......tall upper cabs with the space on the counter like momto4kids kitchen, rms hgtvnme, and this {{gwi:1669276}} , {{gwi:1669284}}home and design

Here is a link that might be useful: FKB momto4kids

saskatchewangirl - was the swissmiss link supposed to be of the kitchen/pantry area that you posted. That looks gorgeous!! Do you have any other photos of it?

So, here is kitchen with changes people here have mentioned.

bump....

saskatchewangirl - wondering if you had any other photos of that kitchen you posted. Thanks

LOVE your inspiration pics!! The walk to the dining wouldn't bother me either. I have a feeling with the new breakfast area you might not use it as much as unless you make an effort to do so.

I know this comment isn't kitchen related, but I'm wondering if you could move the laundry into the new pantry office area and then use the laundry in your plan as a hallway access to the other office and a kitchen desk in the closet space. Maybe a couple of french doors leading out to the patio from there too as it would be closer coming from the family room and allow some better flow to the patio.

Lyfia -- I had not thought of your suggestion -- maybe??? It is kind of interesting. I feel like I would want the laundry traffic to go through the mudroom rather than the kitchen and I'm not sure how to move that around. hmmmm

One reason to keep laundry where it is:
We may enclose a breezeway at the other end of the house at a later date. That breezeway is at the bottom of stairs leading to 2nd floor so may make sense later to move laundry to that space. If that happens then current laundry can become sewing/craft room maybe? or butler's pantry?

I love getting people's ideas -- really makes me think about the space outside of my own "box"

Thanks again.

Sat down with DH last night and a huge list of all my kitchen stuff and tried to figure out where to put things THAT IS SO HARD!!!

I had no trouble deciding zones, but actual space/drawers/cabinets to fit stuff just not easy. Our current space is so bad and we have so much in boxes in the basement that it was difficult deciding what size space for each item is really needed.

What is killing me right now is that in our previous kitchen addition/remodel (old house) the island was the workhorse. It stored everything. This island has a prep sink, a warming drawer and a fridge drawers and a pull-out trash -- that pretty much eats up all island space.

Also, I had a cooktop and all pots and pans stored beneath. This time I have a range and no pan storage beneath and I can't figure out if they will fit in flanking cabinets because I don't own the pots and pans yet (dishes and pots and pans are all on last legs and I plan to buy new for new kitchen)

Decisions, decisions.

On the good side. We went to appliance showroom on Sat and have made 95% firm decisions on all appliances which is good and I tore up all my magazines, and stacks of idea pictures and put then into clear sleeves in a binder yesterday so they are very organized to show to architect at next meeting.