Our counters were supposed to be 37'', but ended up higher at 37 3/4'' because of some uneven floor issues. I love it! Seemed high for a few days, but I adjusted quickly. My back doesn't hurt doing dishes any more.

I'm 5'4 1/2'' and hubby is nearly 6'.

Hi Jasmine,

I'm remodeling my kitchen because I have a back injury/disability, so this subject is near and dear to my heart. The site below has the best general information that I've seen about kitchen ergonomics.

There is no simple formula to determine optimum counter height, partly because it depends more on waist height and arm length rather than height, varies between men and women, and depends on how you cook. Experiment...stack up some cutting boards until you find a level that's comfortable for you. Make sure you consider counter thickness and sink depth when purchasing a sink.

I don't know that raising your counters from 36'' to 36.5'' will make a noticeable difference. (Mine are going from 36.5'' to 39.5'') You need to find what's best for you.

Also consider other factors. Are your counters too deep? Is your faucet too far back? What are you standing on? Tile is very tough on the back and legs.

HTH.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Ergonomics

I am no expert and can't give you proper measurements but I can definitely relate to your problems and will share how we are going to tackle it.

My knee and back pain increased significantly when we moved into this house. The floors are stone so I will be go to wood. I stand on a mat at the sink now. I also notice these sinks aren't close to the edge of the counter so the bending and reaching motion makes it much worse. In our remodel I am going to put in apron sinks so I don't have to learn forward as much (having my arms extended while bending is the killer for my back). I'm also going to raise our counters slightly (I'm 5'5'') but I don't know the exact height yet, sorry. I have read on here if you have a bad back, don't get a very deep sink or if you do, at least get a grate. That made a ton of sense to me. I think I am going to only slightly raise the island but am considering really raising the section of counters that keeps the main kitchen sink so I don't ever need to be leaning/bending. It wouldn't be practical on the same surface you need to chop. I'm also thinking of getting a single dishwasher drawer next to the main sink or in the island as an overflow dw, but mainly to use if I'm having a bad back day. I am looking forward to seeing what you come up with because I'm still trying to figure this all out. Good luck!!

This is a really helpful thread.

I am thinking more and more about making the countertop 36.5 inches.

warmfridge, I am still trying to decide between a side lever faucet and a thinner sink that is 8" deep vs a thicker sink that is 10" deep with a top lever faucet.

I don't have problems with the current sink which is only 6.5" deep and top mount.

I wonder if I should get a top mount sink to make the sink even higher up. But everyone says it is just not OK to get a topmount sink nowadays.

The floor will be either wood or laminate that looks like wood.

"everyone says it is just not OK to get a topmount sink nowadays. "

why not? get what you want, what is best for you and your kitchen!

If it were me, I'd raise the counter and get the more shallow sink and/or grid so you can still get an undermount. There is no joy greater than being able to wipe crumbs straight into the sink :)

I just measured my counters and they are 36.25. I will definitely be going to something like 37-37.5.

I'm going to keep my island all one level so I can sit and chop on the seating side when needed.

I thought I wanted a really deep sink until a read a thread the other day which pointed out it's even deeper when it's undermounted. I'll see if I can find that thread to pass on to you.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg1222245328658.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0111285911521.html

Here are the two links I recently read. I found them to be extremely helpful.
I don't know how to post the 'live' links, sorry. But if you cut and paste them in your browser they should work.

Let me know what you think. Maybe I'll learn something else.

clkw, thanks. One of those is even my thread.

I am still trying to decide on sink, faucet, if I should make the countertop 0.5 inch taller.

Do you think a topmount sink would be higher up to be noticeable?

I should probably mention that in order to get the countertops slightly higher, I would have to shim them up and then paint the shim the color of the cabinets.

I probably should I have made that a thread itself (Would shimming countertop up look ok or tacky?). I am in so much pain that I am not thinking well at all.

If I recall, in one of those threads, they mentioned an undermount sink adds inches to the depth.. so I would guess it would be noticeable.

If you are doing painted cabinets, I would guess the shim could be puttied/spackled and then blended into the cabinets so unnoticeable. Otherwise maybe your countertop could have some sort of lip on it that makes the edge drop below the shim to hide it? Hopefully someone who actually knows what they are talking about will reply as well.

I don't have know which faucets are back friendly yet so I'll be very curious what people say.

I know that pain, sorry.

Actually, there is a formula for determining your "ideal" counter height...

It takes 2 people.

1. Stand straight with arms down at your sides

2. Now, bend your arms at the elbow to form a 90o angle

3. Have someone measure the distance from the floor to your elbow.

4. This is your "ideal" counter height for prep work.

For rolling dough, some people prefer a counter 4" to 6" lower, but usually a kitchen table, if you have one, is lower. If you have enough room to have two different counter heights, I'd go with your "ideal" plus one that's 6" or so lower...assuming you bake!

Another thing to consider doing is raising your DW 6" or so off the floor. That's one of the things recommended for accessibility and I think it would help anyone who has back problems...less leaning over.

I would also consider a single wall oven mounted a 18" to 24" off the floor. It would put the racks at a good height as well. If you have a double oven, it becomes more problematical since it's impossible to have both at an "ideal" height.

Lastly, your sink. First, be sure it is not installed too far back...try for no more than a 3" lip in front of the sink (i.e., b/w the edge of the counter & the sink). The farther back it's installed, the more you have to lean in to use it and the faucet. Second, don't get too deep a sink. The deeper a sink is, the farther you have to lean down to get to things on the bottom of the sink. A grid will help, but it will only raise the bottom of the sink 1/2" to 1". This is one instance, btw, in which the taller you are, the worse a deep sink is on your back! And remember, if you have an undermount sink, the actual depth of your sink = depth of sink + thickness of countertop material.

I read a thread that talked about the advantages of having the drain on the side of the sink instead of in the center (gosh I love GW). The main thing people seemed to like is that it gave them so much space to work without covering the drain. I was thinking it might be neat to have the faucet on the side of the sink so there is less reaching.

For example, the sink in this link is an apron that also looks like the drain is on the side, vs the back.
http://www.rohlhome.com/pdf/RC3618.pdf

Measuring it myself, my elbow is at 42 inches. Maybe I measured wrong so I will have to do the 2 person measure.

Alas, DH refused to go with raised DW, which I really wanted.

Perhaps the shallow sink is better, in which case I get the side lever faucet.

Buehl,

The contractor has this idea of shimming the countertop up by 0.5" and using an ogee edge to hide the shim and then painting it the same color as the cabinets. Do you think this would look tacky?

The countractor says instead of putting the sink flush with the front of the cabinets, the shim would allow him to cut into the shim instead of the cabinets and move the sink even a tiny bit further forward then that. Good idea?

Also, a topmount would allow the sink to come the tiniest bit forward and upward, but I don't know if such a tiny amount would matter. What do you think?

When I was planning my counter height, the counter people said the same thing as beuhl. They had a recommended height of around 36-38" and though I am short, we went with 37.5 based on some other issues (2.5" mitred square edge and white quartzite needed double plywood underneath).

For those of you in the upper regions, IMO over 5'10", I always wonder about how you can constantly lean over for everything! We short people can use a stepstool, but the tall people can't quite "fix" the short counter problem!

If I shim the countertop up, will it look ugly?

(Also see more questions in the previous post.)

I have 37" counters and I'm 5'8". The higher counters are great.

But one more thing to consider. If you keep the standard 18" between the countertop and the bottom of the cabinets, you'll have to be reaching higher for the upper cabs. Also, if you have undercabinet lighting, the actual bottom shelf could be too high for you. My bottom shelf turned out to be about 20.5 inches from the countertop. I wish I had put them a bit lower, especially since I don't have anything tall on the counters.

Good luck and hope your back feels better!

I believe that when you do the elbow measuring, part of the formula is to subtract 6 inches. There is no way that 41" is my best working height...your forearms need to angle down a bit.

I am just under 5'4" and our sink run accidentally ended up at 36.5", and I also have a top mount sink (no choice in laminate). I doubt the half inch will make a noticeable difference, as it hasn't for me, either good or bad. The sink depth will make a difference. Whether or not you wear shoes and what ones you wear could make a difference.

Here is a link that might be useful: kitchen work height info

I measured my elbow height, and my countertops are supposed to be 46.5'' high??? I don't think so. Rhome, I think you're right about subtracting 6'' or so.

Just want to add something about the faucet. A Delta Pilar faucet or a Brizo faucet with SmartTouch TECHNOLOGY may help, both allow you to turn on and off the faucet by touching any part of the faucet without reaching for the lever . Also a foot pedal can help.

For kneading dough, chopping, and stirring, you want lower! For washing dishes, higher. I'm 5'6", and I'd like a little platform to stand on at 36" when I'm doing tons of chopping. The angle isn't good.

For back pain, choose resilient flooring. Cork is probably the absolute best.

41-6=35. Does that sound right?

The contractor has this idea of shimming the countertop up by 0.5" and using an ogee edge to hide the shim and then painting it the same color as the cabinets. Do you think this would look tacky?

The countractor says instead of putting the sink flush with the front of the cabinets, the shim would allow him to cut into the shim instead of the cabinets and move the sink even a tiny bit further forward then that. Good idea?

Also, a topmount would allow the sink to come the tiniest bit forward and upward, but I don't know if such a tiny amount would matter. What do you think?

That calculation sounds right for a work surface, but remember that the sink bottom affects things. My dad put in a sink run at a lower height for my mom in a summer cabin we had once, since she is only about 5 ft tall. It was HORRIBLE. All of us who did dishes there had sore lower backs. The counter itself wasn't bad to work in, but reaching down into the sink was a bear.

I have lower than standard counters flanking my rangetop (which is also about 1 1/2 inches lower than std),at my baking center, and on my island where I need to see into pots or bowls, or I need to chop or knead down onto things...but not at the cleanup sink run.

Do you think I should do like the contractor says and shim the counter up 0.5 inches and them paint the shim the same as the cabinet color?

How do you figure the ideal chopping height?

There is a fancy name for all of this - universal design. I'm 5' and have lots of arthritis - so in my new kitchen, my island for my cook top will actually be lower 32" instead of 36". I am going to use a tapmaster for my sink faucets. (On another wall) The cabinet needs to be 36" or the dishwasher doesn't fit. I really don't like the drawers. My oven is going to be a Bluestar so I don't have to reach over the oven door. Interesting stuff. I'm building my kitchen for my needs. So, you should build your kitchen for your needs!

Here is a link that might be useful: universal design

Great thread...I have a bad back too. My kitchen was fairly standard when I had my house built, it seems to work OK for me (I'm 5'6" with 36" counters). I have throw rugs in front of my sink, stove and fridge, but I want to get comfort mats. The one thing I wish I had done was had roll-outs for all the lower shelves...I only did the top shelves in the lower cabinets. You are smart to build to your comfort and health.

Here is a link that might be useful: ergo mats

Oh!!!! I forgot the "subtract 6 inches" part!!!! Thanks RHome!

Yikes! So sorry!!!! I really wish I could go back an edit a post now!!

Here's the correct formula!

1. Stand straight with arms down at your sides

Now, bend your arms at the elbow to form a 90o angle
Have someone measure the distance from the floor to your elbow.
Subtract 6" from that number.
This is your "ideal" counter height for prep work.

That's 35. Does that sound right? (It means I shouldn't bother shimming up the cabinets.)

slightly off topic, but still connected with ergonomics...

1) I am unhappy with "farm" sinks that have a cold front panel to lean into when doing dishes or washing veggies. I find myself holding back, which makes the lean forward an even bigger back-killer, plus I'm not relaxed because I'm worried about touching that cold sink front. I decided to put in a regular sink, not a self-front-panel one.

2) I have a popup camper trailer with built-in countertops of a sort, but they are very low, as low as the camper bottom section. In order to work in it, I bought two folding bed trays, the kind for breakfast in bed. They were in a department store, cheap but useful. I elevate the dishpan, the cutting surface, whatever. Very handy and it might help someone with similar issues in a house kitchen.

3) I read somewhere that the new deeper sink trend is a response to people's desire to camouflage dirty dishes in an open-architecture kitchen. If you are embarrassed to have a working kitchen, build a wall between it and your table. Don't compromise your back!

Don't forget your cutting board will have some height too. Only 1/2'' if you use a thin board, but up to 2'' if you use a thick butcher block on feet like I do.

Can you mock up the counter at different heights and try prepping on it? Have your contractor make you some pieces of stacked plywood in different thicknesses and try them out. I'd at least try the so-called ''standard'' 36'' height before settling on a counter that is lower than that, if resale is any consideration.

My feeling is, the counter height is somewhat adjustable by choice of cutting board. The sink bottom height is less adjustable so got to get that one right.

I am close to 6 feet and have counters at appx 38'', sink depth from counter is 8 '', use the aforementioned 2'' board. This seems to work and I won't change it much in the remodel.

Good luck, I think you are smart to pay close attention to this. (Written with a hurting back myself.)

Johnliu,

What kind of sink do you have that has a sink depth from counter at 8 inches?

What do you think about topmount sink to get depth up some?

Like Florantha, I elevate my dishpan. The apartment we lived in during the year of our build had a very shallow sink, and magically, I had less backache. I didn't want that dinky sink in the house, but I've made my deep sink shallow by turning one dishpan upside down and putting another on top of it.

Incidentally, while looking for ideas for this house, I ran across a porcelain apron-front sink at Expo that actually sat on top of the countertops, with the rim of the sink up maybe 8 inches from countertop level. The faucet was mounted on the back of the sink. I pretended to wash dishes in it and could tell it would be very easy on the back . . . although I loved how it looked and how it functioned, it really didn't fit the house design, plus I'm klutzy enough that I couldn't see me having it very long! I've searched my photo file but must have tossed it when we went another direction.

I think you can use a deep sink to hide dishes, if that's your wish, and since most of those will go in the dishwasher, you can then use a rack/grid or other elevation measure when doing the handwashing. Honestly, I don't think I do enough hand-washing any more that I'm standing there long enough to get a back ache! Also, if you like dbl bowl sinks, there are those with different depths for each bowl.

As far as figuring what to do with counter height, my reasoning is that it's easier to raise a work surface with a cutting board or butcher block than it is to lower one that's too high. Some people advocate toekick steps or other step stools, but I would most likely trip or fall off sideways and break an ankle.

Just thoughts on the subject that may or may not be of help.

What is my ideal counter height?

I have never kneaded or rolled dough. I do chop all the time.

''What kind of sink do you have that has a sink depth from counter at 8 inches?

What do you think about topmount sink to get depth up some? ''

I'm sorry, I don't know. It was in the house when we arrived. I used to think I'd replace it with a fashionably deep sink, but my most recent period of back pain has changed that view. I think I am going to stick w/ shallower sinks for the sake of my lumbar spine, and just live with dirty dishes in view.

As for top vs undermount, I know undermount is more in vogue and makes sweeping crumbs off the counter easier, but if I can't get a shallow sink with undermount - well, L1, L2 and L3 come first.

I, uh, stand on something and chop. A lot. And when it's the most comfy, that's the right height! :-P

Remember, too, that different chopping boards have different thicknesses. You can go thicker up to 1-2", but not lower than the counter itself.