DH and I are both tall and both share all kitchen tasks. So we raised our countertops 2 inches and specifically chose a shallower sink so that the floor of the sink would not be too deep. The difference is wonderful. It just feels and looks right. We're looking forward to doing the bathrooms someday too.

My family is tall. When building we had all the bathroom vanities made 3" taller.
It is so much easier on the back when leaning over the sink.

My MIL has lower than usual counters since she is barely 5' tall and my FIL (who only does small kitchen tasks) is shorter than average for a man. They are both happy with the arrangement.

we made our pennisula lower b/c i'm short and mixing dough/meatballs or whatever is so much easier than on reg. counter height...

i think it looks great and more importantly, really functional for me, since i do most - 90%- of cooking...

I have done this in a not so permanent manner in my kitchen. I am a bit taller than average and prefer chopping at 38 or 39" so I have two large 2.5" tall cutting blocks permanently left on my counter between the sink and stove for all my prepping needs. This has also served to protect my ten year old marble counters. I also put a 2x2' butcher block that is only 32" in height in an empty space at the end of my cabinet run by my back door. It is perfect for rolling dough and for kids to help cook. I also prodominently only use my top dishwasher drawer for it is so much more ergonomic. I did not design this kitchen and am about to to get ready to begin plans for a redo this year and I do think I will be incorporating different heights for different uses it is so much more functional. Here is a picture of how I use differing counter heights for function. Pardon my very cluttered, worn and soon to be forgotten kitchen.

I think your kitchen is charming, roarah. I love the tin ceiling and trim.

I can see doing this temporarily with chopping blocks and such but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around permanently having multiple, varying heights in a kitchen. It makes perfect sense in terms of ergonomics and function but my eyes like simplicity and streamlined spaces so it seems the varying heights would give me too much visual clutter.

Anyway, at the speed I'm planning my reno, and since it's DIY, it will take forever to finish, maybe you'll be done with your kichen before I get to finalizing the counters so you can post your reveal and I can see what it looks like. :)

I guess I could google around.

Ahh, you've just "met" Johnny Grey, I presume. (Said in my best immitation British voice...) He's a fine fellow; does wonderfully unique kitchens.

He has some really neat ideas, and several books on kitchen design that you could probably sign out from the library. Try googling "Johnny Grey kitchen" and you'll see quite a few pictures of his designs. He also has a website where you can see some of his more recent work. I like his older work better, though. (Something about his new islands make me think of large, rather useless high heeled shoes. Yes, really.) But his older designs, I like.

The best example of the kitchen that's described in your snippet above is in one of his books that we own, in a kitchen that he designed for his own family. I'll try to get a picture of it out to you later, when everyone is up from nap.

His books were what helped me plan out our temporary "unfitted" kitchen that has been so workable for us.

In answer to your question, yes we did do a lower, and a higher, counter in our old kitchen. The lowered counter was for our baking area, but it wasn't super-low. The higher area came in when we removed an old run of counter and didn't want to redo the baking area counter, so we did a raised section that the MW sat on. It gave us an extra drawer and saved us some $. You can see it in my reveal, below.

Here is a link that might be useful: The baking counter was to the right of the stove, under the big window

Yes, that would be the bloke, kind lady. Said in my awful cockney, lol.

Hey, laughable. Thanks for posting the link to your reveal. Ya know, I've looked at it numerous times and never noticed the different counter heights or that the microwave is actually on a raised platform instead of in a microwave cabinet. I think I was just enjoying the overall awesomeness of it too much to see the details.

I'm intrigued by anything that can improve ergonomics. I had a back injury a few years ago. Healed now and seldom bothers me except for when doing a long cooking session. So I had already decided to raise my counters. Since DH is 6" taller, that would help him, too. It seems I have more to learn. Your temporary unfitted kitchen is so amazing. Interesting that you used his ideas to make it. Gives me more reason to google his kitchens.

I look forward to seeing the photo when you have time. Thanks.

I'm short (about 5') and when I actually designed a kitchen from scratch (this was in 1968, so there weren't any sources like GW to help :-)), I made half of the counters lower than "standard." It was a galley kitchen and the counters where the dishwasher was had to be at normal height to have room for the dishwasher underneath, but the other side, which had the cooktop, was lower. The lower counter also had a butcher block section. That worked well for me.
Then I moved to a house that had been built by a very tall builder and it caused lots of problems - I couldn't reach the things in the top cabinets (could JUST reach the bottom shelves, needed a step stool for middle and top shelves), couldn't really chop on the counters, didn't like stirring at the stove. We bought a little butcher block "table" (18"x24") that's about 33" tall and put it in the middle of the kitchen and it was wonderful. It came with us to our new house (normal height counters and cabinets) and is still the main "prep" area for me. Those missing 3-4" make such a difference!

being only 5', if I redid my kitchen I'd have the counters lower. I do think I'll have a friend measure from my elbow to the floor when I'm chopping, doing dishes and at the stove - just to see how far off things are.

Eventually I'll have my table in the kitchen so that will give me a lower surface to cut on if I need it.

I'm envisioning the perfect kitchen where all cabinets are on a hydraulic system so counters can be raised/lowered at the touch of a button to suit the task at hand and the person's height. Uppers, too, could raise/lower. Of course, most of us couldn't afford it but wouldn't it be great?

I did google Johnny Grey and have read a bit of his stuff and viewed quite a few of his kitchens. Wow, cool stuff. In addition to varying heights for counters, I love his idea of using a lot of curves and rounded corners. Wish I could afford custom cabinets to incorporate some of the curved ideas.

I think Buehl has a lower counter in her baking center.

Edit to add: I was thinking of Rhome410s kitchen. Link below. There are also many that used to comment on this board that have varying height counters. Youre just going to have to search for them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rhome410s kitchen

This post was edited by IowaCommute on Sun, Jan 25, 15 at 15:12

Interesting. But hard to execute, I think. It seems like you'd need a decent sized kitchen to have that many different surface heights. Plus, every new occupant would have to re-do the whole kitchen, unless you sold only to people your height!

It seems like a kitchen island with no cabinetry underneath could be designed to raise and lower. That might be doable for a lot of spaces.

I do happen to have a pull out counter in some original built-ins (like a Hoosier) which is lower than the current standard counter height. It is handy when the kids want to help. It's too low for my regular kitchen tasks, except for plating and lunch packing.

Oh, I agree that it would be difficult in smaller spaces but I do think there's some good things there to incorporate when possible. At the very least, I think more consideration should be made to planning the general cabinet heights to better work with the height of the people using it most often. We toyed with the idea of raising our counters and this has sure spurred me to take that idea more seriously.

I'm currently considering a higher prep counter, lower backing area, and an in-between clean-up area....although maybe the clean-up should be higher due to the deep sink? I need to read more about the ergonomics of it all and do some measuring.

I think an exception to building to these kinds of specifications would be if your'e planning on selling in just a few years. If it's a forever house or a very long-term house, might as well make it fit you best, imho.

The lower baking area sounds appealing but it really is not. I built a nice marble baking area, 4 feet long, and I still stand by the major cooking area near the sink.

When you bake, you might knead for 8-10 minutes but there is lots of time used by getting out the ingredients and tools, measuring, mixing, cleaning up, adding water, etc. tasks other than kneading takes time and does not need a lower counter. Kneading is a smaller amount of time.

Too many people in MY kitchen to do that. But a lower baking area in my ex-kitchen, while never used for actual dough rolling, was a nice place for kids and shorties to work. Sturdy pull-out cutting boards are good too.

I'm doing a baking counter again, because I have the space. That's it.

Yeah, I think one would have to measure the main cooks and then do an average that would work better for all of them but probably not the perfect height for any of them.

I'm 5'5"; DH is 6'2". We both think our current counters are too low but the optimum height for me would be different than the optimum height for him. Since I'm the main cook, whatever we do should work best for me but still work better for him. And if my mom or sister come by, they can use the lower baking center counter being they are 4'11" and 5'.

Although I have no idea how this would work if, for example, one of the main users is 5' and wants the counter lowered and the other is 6'5" and wants them raised. I guess one really tall section for the tall person? I dunno.

Funkycamper - I also have thought about this and even measured my forearm recently! I've considered raising the DW cabinet as well as a single wall oven to 44 inches, but some other design priority always seems to override these tweaks and I never get to work it into my plan. Next to building your counters to the best average height for you, I would think raising the dishwasher would be the biggest help in the average kitchen.

I raised our island a few inches for my own comfort (I'm 6'1"). We left the perimeter counters lower for DW, who's 5'4".

It turned out that DW prefers the higher counter on the island, but she doesn't really do much serious work in the kitchen. It's nice to have the different heights for different tasks.

I'd be wary about having a lot of different heights in the kitchen though. Large unbroken prep surfaces are just a super-nice luxury when you have a lot going on and need to spread out.

Yes, raised DWs are definitely recommended for ergonomics, especially for aging in place.

Unfortunately, that's one of those items I won't be able to work into my own plan. The best place for my DW will be in my peninsula which will be perpendicular to a window. The window is actually a couple inches lower than counter height so a raised DW right next to it would block the window too much and look goofy. And since it will be right next to the sink, I'll need the counter for working space.

We all have to make compromises, don't we?

@chefneil: Yes, good point on the uninterrupted surfaces. If i did clean-up peninsula one height, prep area another height, and baking center yet another, I would have pretty good continuous surfaces. I think. Lots to consider.

I'm cutting some plywood today to fit on top of what will be my main prep area to see how a bit higher counter there feels. According to grey, chopping/cutting works better with a higher surface and that is the activity where I do notice fatigue and some pulling in my lower back if I'm doing a long session. I might just end up with that being different. It will be fun to play around with anyway.

Higher counters with toe-kick steps?

DH is 14 inches taller than I am. Our counters are standard height. If I am using a tall pot on the stove I'll just use a step stool.

Our kitchen has been in progress for oh, about 4 years now. We are tall, so thought we would have taller cabinets. The rangetop needed a cabinet so it could be installed, so we built one so that the top of the rangetop is 38", not 36".

I DON'T LIKE IT :(

It is too tall and I have a hard time with the back burners - especially if there is something on the front burners as well.

If you are tall, I think the cutting board solution is the best idea.

My mom is 6' tall, and first raised her counters (just added some extra wood on top of her existing cabinets and a new tile counter) some time in the early '90s. In the late '90s, she did a full kitchen remodel that is still in place today with still higher counters. (She actually did a whole bunch of things in that kitchen that were way ahead of her time. Amazingly, her almost 20-year-old kitchen still looks modern today.)

I believe her current counters are 40" tall. I have been using that kitchen since I was a teenager, and so have tons of my friends (several of whom are quite short) and various extended family members (some of whom are quite short). I ended being just a smidge under 5'9", but over the years, I have used that kitchen while 5'6"-5'9" ish. And I have been an enthusiastic baker since I was ten years old, so that use includes a lot of rolling dough, kneading dough, etc.

I don't know much about ergonomics, but what I have noticed over the years of living with a non-standard-height counter is this:

1) My mother's counters feel perfect to me because they are exactly at my waist, which means I don't have to bend over them at all. I have never given my elbow height a thought -- never been in a kitchen or bathroom anywhere with a counter of any height that made it awkward for me to use my arms. But I am conscious frequently when I am at counters that aren't the height of my waist that I am having to bend over and how that is way less comfortable.

Whenever I am wearing heels in my mother's house, the counters are vastly less comfortable to me because suddenly my waist is 3" higher than the counter. My mother is long-waisted, so based on the kitchen counter height she picked, I suspect our waists are roughly the same height, despite our overall height difference.

However, my sister, who is under 5'7" and neither short-waisted nor long-waisted also uses that kitchen without issues. As does her 6'2" husband and my 6'2" father.

Since you are concerned about your back rather than, like, your shoulder, you might consider your waist height as the standard for your comfort, rather than your elbow height.

2) Everybody under 5'4" comments on how tall the counters on when they walk into my mother's kitchen. However, despite the comments, all of them seem to use the counters just fine. I would not worry about making sure you have a counter at a height your rare, short guests can use comfortably. People manage just fine. It is not what they'd pick in their own homes, but it's fine for a few random cooking sessions here and there.

3) People of heights that are 5'6" - 6'2" do not comment and don't seem to notice the raised counter height. I think it feels normal to them. As I said, I'm in that range, and it always felt normal/perfect to me.

4) People above 6'2" notice the counter height and comment with great appreciation, but presumably for those people, standard height counters are so uncomfortable that my mother's are a welcome change.

5) If you raise your counters and are considering a gas stove, keep in mind that that the prongy-thingies on a gas stove stick up, so your counter will be that much higher there. My mom was surprised by that.

6) The one real downside to high counters is if you have children helping you ("helping"). To get them up to counter height, we have to set them on bar stools next to the counter, which feels precarious and tippy. Kids aren't mindful at all, of course, so you can't leave them there standing on the bar stool and walk to another part of the kitchen to grab a spatula or whatever without risking a terrific accident.

And that is all I have to say about that!

I still need to get you those pictures (our cameras currently have dead batteries...), but I will toss out another idea into the mix.

There was a poster on here a few years ago, Florantha, I believe, who put pull-out bread boards in a few strategic places in her kitchen. She raved about them being installed at just the right height to *sit* at, and she could comfortably work on long projects like processing apples, peeling potatoes, etc without having to stand the entire time.

My dear MIL chooses to sit in a chair with a pan or bowl in her lap if she's working on extended cutting and peeling projects since she finds it's more comfortable for her. I remember my grandmother doing the same thing years ago.

So if your back appreciates sitting and working, pull-out boards would be another way of changing heights without changing the whole counter.

I should mention, too, that when we had our two height counter meeting by the corner, I got frustrated when I couldn't pull out or push in the mixer at the corner like I wanted to. Nor could I wipe the whole corner in on sweep of the dish cloth. It seemed to irritate me to have to wipe the different levels, since it wasn't a fluid motion. (But I still think Grey's kitchens are really cool. Go figure.)

And just for kicks, since I think maybe you weren't here the last time this video came up, I'll include a link to a fun movie that was shot years ago for a great kitchen that was designed back in the 40's to be very comfortable for the wife of the house to work in.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Step Saving Kitchen

@Jillius - Great tips and things to consider. I have three large breadboards (my pull-outs) now stacked on my counter. Forgot about them. Saved me cutting down some plywood, lol. This raises my counters 1.5" to 38.5". I think I like it. I'll be interested in seeing what taller DH thinks about it tonight.

I actually was thinking they could be a tad higher and, sure enough, my waist is just tad higher as well. I think you may be onto something using the waist as a guide.

DH has a long body/short legs for his height so I'll also be curious to see how close to his waist this is.

We don't even have gas lines here so I'm staying with my current glasstop electric range. But good to know to consider the height issue if I was changing to gas.

@laughable: I'm curious to see the photo but no hurry so don't worry about it. I'm sure you'll do it when it's convenient. I've done a lot of googling Gray's kitchens, watched a video he made on planning, and have read a bit more of his stuff so I may have seen it already. He sure does beautiful work even if you don't incorporate all his ideas.

Ha on that video. I've actually seen it. It was posted awhile back at RetroRenovation. So innovative! Thanks for the link as I watched it again and took notes. I think I might try to incorporate a few of the ideas. I was already thinking about some kind of flour/sugar bins in the baking center and a similar countertop cut-out for the prep area (but mine would be going into a compost container, not garbage).

I do like that pull-out work table in the video. I currently have three pull-out breadboards in my kitchen. One is a 28" wide one in the area that is the current and future prep area. I already sit on a stool there when I'm doing a lot of slicing and dicing. In fact, that's one reason why I decided to reuse my cabinets. I love those pull-out boards. They seem almost impossible to put in newer cabinets. I don't know why.

My back isn't a major issue anymore. Thank goodness. A lot of good exercise has helped me make a great recovery. But a long day in the kitchen, usually when preparing those big holidays dinners and such, I do get a slight lower-back tug as I'm bent just that little bit. So I really thinking raising the counters about 1.5-2" should take care of that. It will make that pull-out breadboard a bit higher though. I might have to get a slightly higher stool. :)

I've been thinking about how the different heights would impact things like wiping off counters and such so thanks for reiterating how that would be annoying. I am thinking that a bit lower baking center would just be in the new counter area, where the fridge has been. It will be about 28" wide. Mostly because I do notice that when I'm using the KA mixer, it sits a bit higher than I think I'd like for pouring stuff in using the spout. I can see where having that a bit lower would be helpful. Or I could get one of those lift-up shelves for the mixers, like Rev-a-Shelf has, and mount it as low as possible instead of an entire lower counter.

I would keep the rest of the counter to the corner and then around the corner, past the prep sink, to the range all at the higher level, I think. So the most use space will be at the same height. And since the baking area will be mainly just used for baking that area is likely to not be used for most regular tasks and won't need wiping down when I'm using the prep area, I'm wondering if the different height would be less of an issue?

I think the baking area will be the natural area to put the grocery bags for unloading into the fridge and elsewhere so I can also see where a bit lower counter there will be convenient for that as well. My reusable grocery shopping totes are Tyvek so they're rather stiff and just a bit taller than a paper grocery bag so I usually have to lay them on their sides or put them on a chair or the floor to see what's in them. So a lower counter there would make unloading the groceries easier, too.

I think my next experiment will be fashioning temporary work tables at different heights to see what is the most comfortable height for the mixer and other baking tasks and unloading those groceries..

Oh, I ramble so. Sorry.

This is kinda fun. I feel like a scientist!

Your kitchen is going to be well thought out, and that's a good thing. : ) The lowered counter for unloading groceries sounds very helpful. I also like a lower counter for transferring food from one container to another, especially when I'm transferring from stock pots or crock pots. I find it much easier to maneuver the behemoths when I don't have to lift them so high. I've used a Kitchenaid mixer on a desk in our current kitchen, and you're right, having it lower to see in the bowl for adding the ingredients and scraping the bowl down is great.

Here are the pictures, from the book titled The Complete Home Style Book by DK (they are also in the DK Kitchens book, which I didn't realize until after I ordered both books. Oh well.)

These were ones I couldn't find online, but maybe you had better success searching them out than I did. The first is Grey's island from his own house, which demonstrates quite well his division of tasks with the various heights. (Sorry for the poor picture quality. These were shot with our old camera that has a lousy flash)
It states that the stove area is 6" lower than countertop height (wouldn't this be great for cooking large pots of food?!) and that the surface is SS on either side of the cooktop. The cutting board is to the side of it, set at "ideal" height. The lowered area has marble to make it easy for pastry making, kid usage, etc. And the yellow portion is a raised serving counter with room for dishes below. {{gwi:2136339}}

Here is the island drawn in within the larger scope of his kitchen, which has internal dimensions of 15' x 20':
{{gwi:2136340}}

And this one I'll include because I think it is very fun:
{{gwi:2136341}}

Enjoy all of your experiments!

I think this has been a fruitful discussion. I hope it continues. The more I think about this, the more I believe people should be encouraged by KDs, the kitchen sellers at the big box stores, cabinet makers, etc., to consider counter heights when planning a kitchen.

And I think a big shout-out to many of the great contributors here at GW is called for because until I spent hours...well, really weeks of hours...reading through reveals, advice to folks planning their kitchens, and such, I never would have thought of all these types of details being important for a good, functional, pleasant space. GWE’s (GardenWeb Experts) are the bomb!!

Last night I made a big salad and started a pot of “clean out the refrigerator” soup. I really liked chopping and that kind of prep on the higher counter. My DH helped a bit a really liked it as well.

I also made scratch biscuits. I hand-mixed the dough at four different heights: on the higher counter with the triple breadboards on top (didn’t like), regular counter height (didn’t like), on the breadboard when it was slid into its slot, just below counter-height (liked it much better but still a bit high), and then put the breadboard across two counter-height stools (a bit too low). I think a small stretch of counter somewhere in-between the latter two would be nice for that type of work and other baking, machine-mixing, yada yada type tasks. I’ll continue the experiments.

My chiropractor...who I seldom need anymore due to the excellent exercises he’s given me to strengthen my back and keep myself in alignment...does a weekly radio show on our local station. I called in this morning and mentioned this issue and asked him about it. He was very enthusiastic and gave some examples of people he has worked with who have had back issues directly related to long-term repetitive movements where things are not at the right height for them. So, really, for someone who cooks a lot, this isn’t a trivial issue.

I really want to learn more about this. Oh, gosh...my friends already think I’m the anti-high-heel and heavy-purse nazi, now I'll be the counter-height nazi, too. But I had a back injury for which I was told I would never fully recover, only have limited mobility, and will always have pain. Well, I proved them wrong on all counts due to proper exercises (mostly from chiropractor) and body movements. I can go hiking with a 30+-pound pack and other activities, like 50-mile bike rides, that they said I'd never be able to do again. And I haven't taken a pain pill since 2008. It's because I've become the healthy-back nazi, LOL. This stuff is important for quality of life issues, imho. Off my soap box.

@westsider 40 - Good points about not kneading long. I really don’t bake often where I need to knead. When I do, I move my large breadboard to my table and do it there. So it might be best to just continue doing it that way.

@Oaktown - 14” difference! Wow. You would almost need two separate kitchens to work best for the two of you. Yeah, I think you should have a stool under each appliance and in each toekick. Just pull the whole thing out when you’re cooking. DH can push it all in when he’s cooking.

@tracie.erin - Interesting on the stove height. I can see why that would be good to have it lower since your arm motion is different when stirring and such at a stove vs. chopping/slicing/dicing in a prep area. I do think my stove is the right height. If we do raise the counters on the wall, we’ll have to make adjustments for a lower stove top. Thanks for the tip.

@laughable - Yes, I’m trying to put a lot of thought into this kitchen. And you are one of the people who have really inspired me to put in the extra time and effort to get it right. It will be my last so it better be good! I usually transfer from stock/crock pots in the sink because I’m unbelievably clumsy, lol. The pictures aren’t showing, darn it. I just am getting the Photobucket “This person has moved or deleted” message. It could be my computer. I had to take it back to factory settings last night and am still loading updated drivers and such. I’ll come back later and check it again. I can visualize your explanation of what he did in his own kitchen and why. Still need to get to my library to see if they have any of his books.

Funky, I don't know what happened to the pictures. Maybe I violated some posting law by a showing few pics of his books?? Or something strange happened with photobucket. I don't know. PB says the pictures have been "moved or deleted" right in my account, so it's not your computer. They were in my account last night, and now they're gone. I'll try again tomorrow.

I'm inspired by your strengthened back story. Thanks for the kind words. You are going to love your kitchen when you get it done. : )

I want the standard height because anything else may lose me a sale if I ever move.

Laughable, thanks for the link to that video! I loved it! That kitchen is totally ahead of its time. My main question is....what did she put those potatoes into on the stove?! And did she pull the roast out of there too? I'm amazed and confused:)

Very interesting topic! I just went in my kitchen with a yard stick to measure everything. The point about your waist height is right on as mine is right at my counter top (36.5"); from the bottom of my sink to my elbow is 8" which is what Gray suggested. And I have a Hoosier cabinet with a pull out counter like crl's which is 30.5" high. It is perfect for mixing stiff doughs by hand. I don't roll out much but I really notice the advantage for mixing. I also think I would like it if I could have my KitchenAid on the lower counter.
This idea should be brought up next time someone is trying to decide on a sink depth. It might be the crucial thing to ensure that washing up is not a back breaker!
Thanks, OP!

@laughable - Weird about the photos. They must pay some service to really crawl the web looking for copyright infringement, if that was it. I could see it if someone posted them on a blog without attribution and was taking credit for it but not to share with the name of the designer. Oh, well. Re the back: I did the opposite of what conventional medicine said, used alternative treatments, and am stubborn as heck. I went to hell before I got better but it was worth it.

@EmmaR - I think that makes sense if you believe you might sell within a certain time-frame. I intend to be in the house as long as I'm physically able to live independently. I'm in my 50's so I figure I should be here for a good 30 years, maybe more if I have some good karma, lol.. By the time they put me in "the home", the kitchen will probably need redone anyway so a new owner would probably be planning a gut job no matter the counter height.

@nancyjwb - I can answer that. When I was a kid, my mom's stove had one of those. It was a built-in pot that you could use to boil things in. My mom also did her potatoes in it. Also things like corn on the cob, carrots, and other veggies. I think noodles, too, but I don't remember for sure. She still cooked her meats in the oven so I'm guessing Video Lady did as well. I think it also had a different insert with holes in it for steaming. Possibly others that I don't recall as well. I think they were fairly common as I remember seeing them in other homes, too. Most ovens were a lot wider than they are today and sometimes had built-in warming drawers. Cool stuff.

@junco - How lucky you are to have just the right heights! And it sounds like they arrived via serendipity vs. tedious planning, lol. Good point on using the guide to help people determine proper sink depths.