We wanted to keep our 20+windows the way they were.So they took the glass from old and made new windows.Glad we did.It was an investment but done now.We wanted big jobs out of the way so after restoring we didnt have to tear up again.We had storms & screens made.

The advice is DON'T!!
You in all probability do not need new windows, you need storm windows on the outside of the existing windows. The window sales people need you to buy new windows because you will spend three times or more what you will if you have storms windows installed and in the end will have about the same level of effiicency either way. New windows damage the historic integrity of the house and help put sales peoples kids thru college, but they don't in the long run do any better for you on energy savings than a good quality storm window does.
Remember the last people to talk to about what do you need to buy, is the people who make or sell it, cause if that is where you go for advice, guess what the answer will always be.
Some people here don't care for aluminum triple track storms. I like them okay, if they are painted to match your trim, which they can be. You can also find wooden ones, even wooden with screens for the summer, and not where you have to take the windows down and replace with screens each summer either. LOTS of info on this on here, do a search. We talk this one to death at least twice a year it seems.

No, our house needed new windows no body talked us into anything.Our idea was we restored complete house,not remodel.We wanted what we had .Only way was to have them made,storms would not have been the answer.You know what you want,what you need.You live there no one else.

Thank you, bulldinkie! I do, indeed, know what my house needs and it is neither new storms nor old glass in new frames! :) And, thank you also, Cthulhu for your impassioned, friendly response!

Let me first say that I LOVE my 1901 townhouse. I bought it nearly 20 years ago because I much preferred it's architecture and rich period details over more modern-day structures. And, because I love it for it's historic beauty, my aim is to preserve as much of its original bones as possible. At the same time, however, I am not an old house "fundamentalist." That is, while I have awe and respect for the designs of the past, I am not inflexible to the pull of modern technological advances. As such, I am not heating my entire house with its original gas fireplaces. Nor am I'm washing my laundry by hand in the old schoolhouse size cast iron sink in the basement. (I imagine that very few of the rest of you old house lovers are doing those things either)! :)

My townhouse is, in fact, a rowhouse that is situated in a very urban, New York City environment. Besides needing some help to defeat my over the top energy bills and excessive noise from street traffic, I think that having easy to clean, modern glazed, double hung windows that mimic the overall historic design of the original windows is an infrastructure upgrade that is most desirable. I should add here, that all of my original windows are single lite, double hungs without any distinctive grillework. (The "details" are in the moldings, and none of those will be replaced with this installation.)

The only thing that gives me design pause is the exterior aluminum cladding. While it certainly brings long term maintenance benefits, the material is clearly inconsistent with the age of the house. However, my house is one of 10 attached row houses and, at this point, it's the last in the row to still have the very inefficient original windows still in place. Honestly, none of the other homes in the row look like restoration "sell-outs" because they have replacement windows.

So, yes, my mind is made up on this one. That being said, is there anyone on this forum who has dared to put Marvin or Pella aluminum clad exterior/wood interior replacement windows on your beloved old house? And, if so, do you have any advice to share that might help me make a more informed choice between these manufacturers?

Thanks!

First of all let it be known that keeping those old windows does you no good at all. New York has some of the toughest regulations coming in the Nation. Eventually it will be required down the road whether you like it or not. The states new Energy Conservation laws are being pushed to CONSERVE not PRESERVE. Our Nation is loaded with energy wasting homes and properties. The most important thing for you to do first is get a home energy audit performed before you make any choices. This will tell you everything you need to know. The BPI (Building Performance Institute) has a foot hold in that part of the Nation. Check into NY energy conservation sights and find more info! Good Luck!!!

Martha, there is lots of info out there to help you make an informed decision. The Sec of the Interior has a number of briefs you can read. I am currently using that information to restore rather than replace my old windows. Windows are an important architectural feature and not merely a system like plumbing or heating. I would suggest you look at the historically accurate replacement windows available from major window manufacturers, espacially for the primary facade of you home if you decide to replace.

Good luck with your home.

I think the story that gets everyone riled up....is original windows w/ wavy glass.....broken ropes....layers of paint.....old growth wood...in good condition.....being replaced under the guise of energy efficiency. It's sad when these windows get ripped out when repairing them is relatively easy and oh-so rewarding. The quality of most of those old windows just can't be replaced. I think there is many an old house owner that has been lured into replacement windows only to discover the treasure they tore out and regret it....for a long time. If a person doesn't want to do the work themselves, check out the phone book under windows......there are usuallly a few shops around that advertise window rehab. for a reasonable price.

However, I agree there are many situations that call for replacement windows....or sashes. New construction, replacement of bad replacement windows, windows beyond repair (although it is amazing what you can do with epoxy)......etc. In those situations, I'd go with Marvin, Pella, Anderson (in that order)....then the top of the line model from there. In my city there are a few small shop places that make historical minded replacement windows at reasonable prices....they would be my first stop. Marvin makes an all wood replacement sash that can be a reasonable alternative when only the sash needs replacement. Just don't rush into anything without fully researching.

Two other things to keep in mid: Metal clad windows are not permanently maintenance free, they will have to be repainted eventually, as will the remaining trim, so scaffolding, etc. is not eliminated.

If your heart is really set on this, then keep all your old sashes upstairs in the attic, for the next owner to work with if they make different calculations than you. It's the least you can do, and in the case of sashes, they can almost always be remove intact and stored.

Finally re Marvin/Pella. .... here's the question I'd ask about the "wood", is it solid or finger-jointed stock. I've had sad experience with what passes for "wood" Pella, and seen sashes and trim pieces joined together every couple of inches (my husband joked that they were made from the scraps at toothpick factories). Yes, they were made of wood, but the fingerjoints were itching to come apart almost from the start and inside of a decade they were a mess. Contrast that with my barn sash members that are more 150 years old, and have been sorely neglected for at least 75 yeasr (no paint, etc.) and but they are easy to put back in good condition.

If you want increased energy efficiency with better historical accuracy you should check out the makers of reproduction windows. These are not cheap, but reflect more accurately, the true short and long term costs of your proposed project.

Here are two links that may help you think through this plan:

Preservation brief on conserving energy in older structures
http://www.cr.nps.gov/hps/tps/briefs/brief09.htm

Preservation Brief on repair of windows in historic buildings

http://www.cr.nps.gov/hps/tps/briefs/brief09.htm

Molly

The reasoning behind the change in energy consumption is geared from the power loss a few years back in the NY area. The National study of how this happened and why sparked some interesting results. First of all to replace the old antique power lines and grid system in just one area would be Trillions of dollars. That's just one grid! Our almighty power supply companies can't even comprehend where to start and where the money will come from. So they are all putting large amounts of money in a federally funded program to make our homes more energy efficient. So by having an energy audit done on your home and finding out where all your issues are. You can then have access to this pool of low interest loans through our government. There are a handful of us working closely with these programs and teaching them the things they will need to know for a more energy efficient home. In my case, I offer technical solutions on the installation of doors and windows. The proper use of house wrap and flashing. Then it goes from there to siding, HVAC, roofing and insulation.
Your windows are only part of a very complex system... your home. Every home is different and every climate doesn't care... it just does what it does. The neighbor next to you in the same model home might change windows and save 50%... and you might do the exact same and save nothing. It might not make sense.. until you apply science.

Energy is heat and follows it's own laws. It's laws tell it to move to a lack thereof by any vehicle available. Air transfer is the easiest but many others are readily available in most homes. Conduction, convection and radiation are the primary taxicabs. If your neighbors home is properly insulated and airtight, the energy might have been primarily using the old windows as the vehicle to move in or out. If your home isn't, new windows will only tranfer the energy to the next cab... like your walls or roof.

Think (ATM) = money. Air, Temperature and Moisture always move in relation to each other. If you address one and not the others, they will bring it along for the ride anyways. A typical 2,500 square foot home has over a half mile of cracks and crevices in it's shell. Insulation defects DOMINATE the thermal performance of any assembly. If the insulation in that shell has even 5% of gaps or openings, it reduces the entire shell's insulating value by up to 70%!!! The effect is even worse with higher initial R-values. The air takes the energy for a free cab ride and steps on the gas. Heat does not rise, it moves equally in every direction. Only heated air rises when it is not driven in another direction by predominant pressure or airflow.

If your house is well insulated and very airtight, then your windows might be the primary source of heat loss/gain. Changing these windows with a well insulated and airsealed product might make a huge difference in your energy bills. This would be the hope of everyone going through this process but it may also have very serious side-effects. If your old windows were a considerable source of air-infiltration, the reduction of this airflow will induce a negative pressure inside the home and may cause your cumbustion appliances to backdraft Carbon monoxide (CO). I have personally tested and witnessed this occurance by simply turning on a clothes dryer or a few utility fans. That was all it took to change the airflow. If a shortage is measured, the necessary amount of "fresh" replacement air can then be supplied by controlled mechanical ventilation.

When you change any part of a structure's thermal or pressure boundaries with windows, siding, roofing & venting, etc., you have changed the rules and allowances. It is for these reasons and many more that I strongly recommend having your house professionally tested before and after any shell remodeling. The analysis fees are usually deductable from the contract amount of the work performed. These testing procedures are supported and recommended by the EPA and the USDOE and information can be found through their sites.

The primary objective is to save energy and improve comfort and air quality in the home. This can be achieved in almost every home in America... if you, Test... Before you invest.

Thank you, Window Guy. Based on your earlier post, I did look into the energy savings financing program that is available here in the state of New York. As a result, I DO intend to have a home energy audit performed by a certified BPI contractor. And, when I get the financing approved, I'll then also be able to better afford my expensive new windows, new boiler, new Energy Star appliances and everything else that will make my wonderful old house energy efficient in the new millenium. That really was a great tip! You are providing a real service by sharing this kind of information.

I did forget to answer some of the above questions while wondering off on the above post. If you choose to just replace your sashes. Keep in mind your existing openings need to be very square and level. Marvin's tilt-pac sash kit will never work right if not. So please keep this in mind before making that choice. I know Marvin is working on a sill plate that can be adjusted to correct this issue. Marvin does have a much better choice in windows that keep historical curb appeal. They also keep that look on the inside. Loewen also has a great window. I'd tend to check out the Loewen window just because they use full sticks of wood on the inside. Not the finger join product Pella and Marvin use. The finger joined wood if done right will last just as long as most full pieces. If they aren't painted or sealed correctly they will be falling apart quickly as Housekeeping talked about above. Today we can't use the crazy glues they used back in the fifties. The EPA and PCA have laid them to rest never to be used again. So water soluble glues are used today to glue these pieces together. What these pieces are and why they are used? They are scrap pieces of wood from production that go through a process that joins them all together to make functional product. Most the time you would only see these joints in the exterior brickmould around doors and windows. Today we see it on the jambs that make the units up. If stained and sealed, or painted right. They will last for years of great functionality. You just have to keep up on the paint and sealant used to protect the wood.
I see Housekeeping posted on painting clad units in the future. I'm hoping she was talking about the interior side of the windows. The exterior sides of most of these units should never need painting. I know Marvin and Pella both use a Kynar paint finish that should last a life time. Not being disrespectful in any way just clarifying what I thought I read. Good Luck!!!!

Good thread, I have enjoyed reading it!

Window Guy,

I decided to go with all wood Marvin Ultimate Double Hung Inserts (not the Tilt Pacs). These are custom-made windows which accurately reproduce the original windows in both style and framing material. No aluminum cladding is involved.

Because my house is not singly designated as a landmark, nor situated in a landmark district, I am free to choose replacement windows of any kind. However, staunch preservationists who frequent this forum might take a bit in comfort in knowing that the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission approves these very same Marvin windows as suitable replacements for houses that are situated in the landmark district and that have original windows such as mine -- i.e., single lite, double hungs without muntins.

Because of the significant cost involved in using historically accurate, energy efficient windows, however, I can only afford to replace the front facade group this time around. But, thanks to your tip, I now have a plan to secure that state subsidized energy savings loan, and will use it to finance the replacement of the rear facade windows. Towards that end, I'm already looking seriously at using Loewen for the rear replacements. A preliminary investigation of that product leaves me impressed. Besides the beauty of their custom-made construction, I love the fact that Loewen uses Douglas Fir as a standard wood on all its products. Very nice!

MarthaV,

I think you have made a good choice and I'm sure your new windows will look very beautiful. I hope you will store the old sashes in your attic, though. You may give a subsequent owner a really big thrill to find them, and then they can agonize over whether to re-fit them!

Guy,

I realize the clad windows have a long-lasting, "lifetime" as you described it, finish on them. But I can't imagine that it is truly a permanent finish; at some point it *will* need to be restored. I am often amused when manufaturers assert *lifetime* longevity for materials that have only been in existence for a couple of decades. And since I live in house which is 160+ years old (two respectable lifetimes), I, like other old-house owners, probably have a different perspective how long "long-lasting" a material should be. We expect a couple of centuries, at least, before we have to replace permanent items. In the meantime, we want stuff that is easy to restore to its original state by simple repainting, not replacing.

Molly~