Ginny, the reason there are so many different ways to do things is that there are a lot that work. Having had a starter going for over a year now, I've found that it isn't that picky. For example, your original question of how much starter to add to make the sponge. It isn't critical. If the amount added is very small, then the sponge will take longer to double because it's starting out with very little yeast. If you add a lot and your starter is a wet one, then you may need to adjust the amount of flour you add to the bread later to get the dough right. I keep my starter in a glass jar in the fridge because it is a convenient size. I'm skeptical about the "no metal" thing. I wouldn't use a reactive metal, but I've stirred with stainless steel and haven't found it to do any harm. I sometimes let my dough rise in a stainless steel bowl. I was a bit worried about whether my starter survived chemo. I only managed to get it out once during the last 5 months when I went through several cycles of fed and double until it was doubling quickly again. Yesterday I finally got it out of the fridge again. It took a while to double (the house is pretty cool at this time of year too) but by this morning it had doubled. It is pretty hardy stuff.

apple yeast water or any of the other fruit yeast waters completely cancel out all sour...that is why a lot of folks like it. In addition you do have a different crumb structure and crust when using the yeast water. The way to get the "sour" that you like ...more or less is the fermentation process, the kinds of flour you use, the amount of starter and whether you leave the starter on the counter or keep in the fridge and how many feedings you do before use...you can see that it is all a science. My breads are not all that sour as a usual thing since DH doesn't care for too sour. If you go to the links I have put in this thread and the one ann started you will see a lot of info on The Fresh Loaf. You also can google less sour sourdough and get a lot of info. It would be a great idea to do some reading before you begin. It is a lot of fun to also just begin and see where it leads you. The link to Debra Wink and her method of getting a starter going is a great place to start. Let me know if I can help in some way. c

This looks to be #150, so I'll start another sourdough thread with pie segue. :) Cathy, I know the liberated feeling you're talking about! I had it when I started these experiments with the discard. I do as I please with most baking recipes, usually to success. I don't have Grainlady's technical knowledge nor Ann's experience and expertise, but I know that if you control the basics, it'll come out. My mother's challah is so tetchy, however, that controlling it is enough without messing with it. A cousin did that when I was young, and tried using it as a base recipe for other breads, and they were breads, but I didn't really like them. You have to know how to not handle the challah (no typos there) to make it work out right. Add to that the old miseries of using cake yeast and I never messed with yeast dough before. I really liked the figgy loaf! Worrying about keeping the yeast alive rather than if I was going to ruin the bread was great. But that was one of those very soupy things, and if I try that again, I'll use less water/more flour. :) It's interesting that so many people think more hydration means lighter bread and more holes! That's the opposite to what I've experienced so far. Leader, like the ciabatta recipe, works the dough and develops the gluten. Controlled hydration seems to work better for me, and I definitely think the miche was too wet given how much better it got as it dried out. I had similar issues with the pizza recipe. One of the ones I tried, which was the result of much study in a pizza working group, was something like 90% hydration of whole wheat (though not soupy!). It was a very sticky dough and had to be made in a pan. It was not at all comfortable with toppings, though it was okay par-baked. Totally wrong for me, and it didn't have a good enough baked texture to stick with. It's not like my pizza recipe is low hydration. Just comparatively low. It's around 70% hydration. Cathy, I agree that inhaling pizza of any kind is frightening! Thank goodness for the widespread publicity for the Heimlich Maneuver! The miche is peasanty, as in plain old bread. I'd be happy to make the pain de levain for you! That has much more complexity even though it's mostly white. It's very yummy! The miche isn't as flavorless now, but it's not stand in line worthy, unfortunately. Next time. It was supposed to be record setting heat this weekend, but we're having monsoon influence, instead. Not the actual monsoons, which are farther South, but damp and cooler. Spaghetti and meatballs and ciabatta sounds delicious and decadent right now! (Decadent because two starches--my mother never served bread with pasta.) My favorite way to eat ciabatta, however, is with a goodly layer of good butter and an even thicker layer of powder grated good parmesan. This is the breakfast the Italian stewards on the ocean liner tempted my mother with when she was underfed and ill and returning home. I am not underfed, so I don't indulge, but the slightly salty, slightly sour bread with the sweet butter and salty, umami parm is just amazing. (Okay, I'm not underfed, but I haven't had breakfast...) Standing in line for the ciabatta... The gyros-ish meatloaf came out fine. It would have been better with more fat (who says that?), but the meat that needed using was very lean. I suppose I could have added some butter, but who does that? Not I. It's tasty, though. I didn't go full out on the seasoning (i.e., used the recipe) because I'd never made this recipe before. It could be kicked up a bit, but the flavor is about right. The leanness means I can be generous with the oil and grill some up later. :) No yoghurt sauce since since there are no pita either and my cucumbers and dill both bit it in the fridge. Tomatoes, onions and peppers will be fine. :) Ann, one lesson I learned best from you is to just put things in the fridge. Fermenting yeast things, that is. Just put it in the fridge. It's the most freeing thing I've learned recently. I've read all about it, of course, and the pizza recipe is one that's meant to develop in the fridge, but the way you just whip up a levain and throw it in the fridge until you're ready, or make up some do and go off to work, with instructions to Moe for when to take it out. Of course it's a given that cold retards yeast, but so much of my bread life until now has been about keeping yeast warm and cozy and encouraging it to rise, retarding the rise in the fridge to manage the slow process of sourdough is a revelation. Thank-you! Edited to add link and fix weird typo. This post was edited by plllog on Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 20:51

That's too funny, Terriks. This has become our family activity: a Sourdough Starter Race. Each one of us got a 1 qt mason jar, and I had everyone watch a video (I thought this guy would be more appealing than say, Pioneer Woman : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1Ssdzk6uhI ). Then they had a choice of flours, liquids, yogurt, raisins, honey, berries juices etc. It was up to them what they did but I advised equal weight liquid and flour. We are feeding them every day after our Linner (now dubbed Dejeuner Tardif). In 10 days, we will discard all but 2T of each contestant's starter. Then we will feed them, and wait 24 hours. Whoever's grows the fastest wins and that what we'll use to bake bread. Knowing my oddly competitive bunch, I realized I had to hide the yeast packets, baking soda and baking powder lest they cheat! Still don't know what to do if they try sabotage... Elunia that is a work of art! PS I could not find organic whole wheat flour anywhere, though I did get some other flours that look great. I ended up buying whole wheat flour from a farm in PA on Etsy. Like my garden tomatoes, this process (cue the banettons and bench scraper) will yield the most expensive food we've ever had, rivalling Blue Hill