My methods may not suit your needs, but I have used frozen bread dough and pizza crust from the dairy case to make the bierocks. I would not use a soft tender bread dough made with eggs and lots of butter for the Bierocks.

For 6 pasties:

3 cups flour
1 1/2 t. salt
1 cup crisco shortening
3/4 c. cold water

Mix flour and salt together in a bowl, cut in shortening, blend in water quickly to form a pastry dough. Divide into 6 equal pieces, roll out, fill, fold over, crimp dough edges together, cut steam vents in top. Bake at 400F for 12-15 minutes, then 30-45 min. at 375F.

Filling:

1 1/2 lbs. round steak, cut into 1/4" cubes
4 cups potatoes, carrots, turnip, mixed, cut into 1/4" cubes
3 onions, diced
2 t. salt
1/2 t. pepper
dash of garlic salt

Use 1 cup filling per pasty.

Bierocks
1 lb. hamburger, brown and drain
1/2 onion chopped
1 rib celery chopped
1/2 head of cabbage, shredded, cooked
1/2 t. garlic salt
1 t. Worcestershire sauce
2 TB ketchup s&p to taste

Mix all well, simmer 15-20 minutes. Pat out bread dough pieces, pizza crust dough pieces, or crescent roll dough. Put filling on top with a diagonal slice of American cheese. Crimp edges tight to seal. Bake at 350 until brown.
Serve bierocks with more ketchup.

From reading, it's my understanding that you may want to choose a pastry recipe that contains an egg to hold a meat filling, so you were on the right track. "The protein in the egg will reinforce the structure of the pastry, making it strong enough to hold a hefty filling." (Source: The Inquisitive Cook)

Pastry dough freezes well, so you should be successful with either an egg or non-egg pastry. I'd take care how they are packaged and stored, or they can also easily crack and crumble, and that would be my concern.

Personally, I would tend to make filling and freeze it in user-friendly amounts, and then make the meat pies later using fresh pastry. It saves on freezer space. I do the same thing with things with noodles in them (which tend to get mushy when frozen), like Hamburger Stroganoff. Make the meat filling and freeze it. Add it later to fresh noodles. Since there are only two of us, I freeze a lot of recipes in smaller portions, like spaghetti sauce...and cook the spaghetti later.

-Grainlady

Perfect timing for your post. I took this

The pastry I use for meat pies, including pasties, is the same one I use for fruit pies. I've tried many other pastry recipes over the years but this is my favourite.

Home Cookin Chapter: Recipes From Thibeault's Table

(note: if using for a sweet pie, add 1 or 2 teaspoons of sugar.)
. Mix flour with salt, and cut in butter and lard.

(Note: I use the cuisinart to cut in my fat and then move the mixture
to a bowl to add the water by hand).
I like to have to do this by feel which I find I can't do by machine)

Put flour mixture in bowl and add water mixing with a fork until pastry
comes together. Form in to a ball and cut in two pieces. Form each
into a round flat disc and refrigerate for 1 hour.

Thanks for the comments posted so far. I'm sure that someone will find the recipes useful, and I appreciate the intent of helpfulness that is undoubtedly behind posting them.

It isn't an option for me to use a recipe containing lard or shortening*. I really and truly want to learn about the factors to consider in selecting the best dough recipe for freezing that does NOT include lard/shortening.

I would request those wishing to discuss the merits of those ingredients in whatever recipes to start their own threads and not 'hijack' this one. This is not to criticize the use of those items, nor the people using them. It's simply a matter of not meeting my needs. My appreciation to any and all who can respect my situation.

*I know, I didn't include this exception specifically in my first post. It's so far outside my universe I never considered it. The only reason I got the lard piece is because it came up peripherally in my other recent thread.

Leaves, I love AnnT's recipe..Shortening is not Lard. So use Shortening and give it a try. Teresa's recipe calls for Crisco (again non lard shortening).

I will take a look in a few Cooking Light Magazines I have and see if they have anything that might interest you.

Note: The beauty of this forum is people sharing. Hijacking often happens, scroll on by the Hijack or I guess ignore alot of posts that have great information intermixed in them. I don't think there is a single post above that doesn't in some way give you information that is helpful. Most of us here, take what we can use out of a recipe someone else posts or use it as a jumping point..We don't all follow things to the letter typed.

Again~ I'll take a look this afternoon in a few back issues of CL for you.

Enjoy the day~
Terri

wow

I don't see where anyone tried to "hijack' your thread at all.
I for one, was uncertain as to what you were looking for... just a pie crust recipe or meat pie recipes? On a forum like this, we often have to guess about what someone is wanting.

My take on your inquiry is that you want a pie crust recipe without lard or shortening that will freeze well, to be used with savory pies. If so, (I'll check back) I have one that calls for vinegar and egg that I think would work with butter for the fat. I have an extensive collection of pastry recipes..

Nancy

All you have to do is replace the amount of lard/shortening with butter or margarine.
I think all of the answers had a lot of info that you could have put together to get your answer.
One even mentioned about egg pastry.
I don't see what you are upset about. As you said, you didn't specify no lard/shortening in your original post so nobody could have known those were your limitations.
Lisa

Oh boy.

Well said Terri.

Sorry Leaveswave, but if you don't like Highjacked threads then this forum might not be for you. We encourage it around here.

Ann

Maybe let us know what fats ARE an option for your needs.
Pastry is going to have to have some sort of fat.

There are many that use oil, butter, lard (animal fat), shortening (vegetable fat), etc.

If we know the limits, we can better provide recipes that may work for you.

Deanna

There are two kinds of doughs to use with meat pies (maybe even more - who knows?) - short pastry dough that could be made with lard, shortening, or butter and yeast dough that could be commercially frozen bread dough, pizza crust or calzone dough, or a simple bread dough recipe that has a small amount of fat (oil or butter) in it.

Everyone here on this forum is always very happy to help with inquiries of any kind. But sometimes it is necessary for the poster to do a little research on her/his own to find more information pertinent to her/his needs. And sometimes you just have to dive in a try a new recipe on your own to see if it is what you want.

All the best,
Teresa

Nancy, to clarify, I'm not looking for a pie crust recipe. Thanks for reflecting back what you were taking from my message so I could understand the discrepancy. I suppose "meat pies" is misleading. If I describe it as an 'edible pocket' maybe that would give a sense of what I will be doing. To describe even more fully, I want to make a dough-on-the-outside, filling-on-the-inside food. The size will be in individual servings, or possibly smaller (so that one would need to eat 2 or more for a meal). Most of them probably will include meat, though I plan for them to be heavy on veg and will also make some vegetarian ones, maybe lentil-based. I want the dough to be non-greasy if I bake or steam them, so they can be eaten pleasantly by hand. I hope this helps give a more complete picture of what I'm seeking.

Deanna, oil and butter are fine. Others might be also; I don't have an exhaustive list to hand. And I hesitated to say 'only these fats' because that's usually a harder list to make than the 'not' list, if you know what I mean. And see what difficulty even that presented! :-)

Pastry dough may well always contain one or more fats. I couldn't say as I'm a rather inexperienced baker (just never got into that fussy measuring; I have been cooking for over 30 years). The broader category 'dough,' meaning a mixture of flour (not necessarily wheat) and liquid, does not necessarily include fats.

Now, which of these variations is most suitable for my purpose and with my constraints, I don't know. And I do certainly expect to do some experimentation. As part of my research I came here anticipating thoughtful and with-a-bit-of-food-science replies. And, again, I thank such posters for those.

A very beautiful autumn day to all who contributed to such a lively discussion!

You looking for Runzas or Bierocks? Then just use a simple bread dough...
1 1/3 cups water
3 3/4 cups flour
2 tsps salt
2 packages ( or5 teaspoons) yeast.

Put flour, salt and yeast in a food processor, slowly add luke warm water and process about 30 to 40 seconds until the dough forms a ball.
Remove, cover and let rest 20 minutes, roll out fill and bake.
If you are looking for a meat pie like a tortier or an empanada or pasty you would want to use a pastry crust.

Linda C

Although I have never made Chinese Steamed Buns, perhaps this recipe might help. These can be filled with meat or vegetables.

Chinese Steamed Buns
Submitted by: Carol chi-wa Chung
Rated: 4 out of 5 by 33 members Prep Time: 30 Minutes
Cook Time: 30 Minutes Ready In: 4 Hours
Yields: 24 servings

"Follow this recipe carefully and you will be rewarded with these delicate, filling-free Chinese steamed buns. You can also use this recipe to make the traditional filled versions."
INGREDIENTS:
1 tablespoon active dry yeast
1 teaspoon white sugar
1/4 cup all-purpose flour
1/4 cup water
1/2 cup warm water 1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
1/4 teaspoon salt
2 tablespoons white sugar
1 tablespoon vegetable oil
1/2 teaspoon baking powder

DIRECTIONS:
1. Mix together yeast, 1 teaspoon sugar, 1/4 cup flour, and 1/4 cup warm water. Allow to stand for 30 minutes.
2. Mix in 1/2 cup warm water, flour, salt, 2 tablespoons sugar, and vegetable oil. Knead until dough surface is smooth and elastic. Roll over in a greased bowl, and let stand until triple in size, about 2 1/2 to 3 hours.
3. Punch down dough, and spread out on a floured board. Sprinkle baking powder evenly on surface, and knead for 5 minutes. Divide dough into 2 parts, and place the piece you are not working with in a covered bowl. Divide each half into 12 parts. Shape each part into a ball with smooth surface up. Put each ball on a wax paper square. Let stand covered until double, about 30 minutes.
4. Bring water to a boil in wok, and reduce heat to medium; the water should still be boiling. Place steam-plate on a small wire rack in the middle of the wok. Transfer as many buns on wax paper as will comfortably fit onto steam-plate leaving 1 to 2 inches between the buns. At least 2 inches space should be left between steam-plate and the wok. Cover wok with lid. Steam buns over boiling water for 15 minutes.
5. REMOVE LID BEFORE you turn off heat, or else water will drip back onto bun surface and produce yellowish "blisters" on bun surfaces. Continue steaming batches of buns until all are cooked.

I can't really come up with a dough that you would be able to BOTH bake and steam. The two cooking methods require two different doughs.

For baking a hand held meat pie I would use a pizza dough, the other type of doughs such as puff pastry and pie dough don't seem to be what you require.

For steaming would a Pierogi type of dough work?

Pierogies
6 servings

2 Eggs
1/2 c Water
2 c Flour
1/2 ts Salt
Pepper to taste
Mound flour on kneading board and make hole in center. Drop eggs into hole and cut into flour with a knife. Add salt and water and knead until firm. Let rest for 10 minutes covered with a warm bowl. Divide dough in halves and roll thin. Cut circles with a large biscuit cutter. Place a small mound of filling a little to one side on each round of dough. Moisten edge with a little water, fold over and press edges firmly together. Be sure they are well sealed to prevent the filling from running out. Drop the pierogi into salted boiling water. Cook gently for 3 to 5 minutes. Lift out of water carefully with a perforated spoon. The dough has a tendency to dry while you are working. A dry dough will not seal completely. We suggest rolling out a large circle of dough, placing small mounds of filling far enough apart to allow for cutting, and folding the dough over the mounds of filling. Then cut with a small biscuit cutter and seal firmly. Never crowd or pile pierogi. The uncooked will stick and the cooked will lose shape and lightness.

Note: Pierogi can be frozen after boiling and they keep well. I prefer all my pierogi fried in butter and onions and seasoned with salt and pepper. They should be fried on a medium low heat till golden brown.

Beef Filling
4 serving

1 lg Onion, sliced
2 tb Margarine
1 3/4 c ground Beef
3/4 c Cooked rice
2 ts Beef broth
3 ts Hot water
1 tb Parsley, chopped
Salt and Pepper to taste
Sautonion in margarine. Stir in meat and rice. Dissolve bouillon in hot water. Add to meat mixture with parsley and salt & pepper to taste.

Cabbage Filling
12 serving

1 Head cabbage
7 Cans of sauerkraut 10 oz. cans
1 Small onion
1 Clove of garlic
10 tb butter
Salt and Pepper to taste
Parboil cabbage in boiling water for ten to fifteen minutes. Rinse, drain, cool, and thoroughly wring moisture from cabbage and sauerkraut; set aside. The drier the cabbage and sauerkraut the less time required to complete cooking. Sauté onion and garlic in 2 Tbsp. butter. Add cabbage and sauerkraut and remainder of butter; cook for approximately one half hour or until cabbage is soft and mixture is "reasonably" dry. It is important that the mixture not be too moist in order to prevent wetting dough during the filling process ... wet dough will cause pierogi to break open during cooking!

Allow mixture to stand in refrigerator (in covered bowl) for twenty four hours
prior to filling pierogi dough.

Cheese Filling
8 servings

2 c Cottage or farmers cheese
2 Eggs (slightly beaten)
2 tb Sugar
2 tb Butter
6 tb Currants (optional)
1/2 ts Cinnamon (optional)
1/2 c Raisins (optional)
Salt and Pepper to taste
Cream eggs and butter together. Add other ingredients and mix well. Note: If using cottage cheese, use only the egg yolks.
Fruit Filling
4 servings

2 c Pitted cherries, blueberries, or apples
3/4 c Water
1/3 c Sugar (optional)
1/2 ts Cinnamon or cardamom
1 ts Lemon juice
3 tb Dry bread crumbs
Salt and Pepper to taste
Combine fruit water and sugar in saucepan. bring to boil. Simmer until fruit is tender and water is almost gone. Remove from heat. mash slightly with potato masher. Add cinnamon and lemon juice. Cook and stir over low heat until thick. Stir in enough bread crumbs to further thicken.

Mushroom Filling
4 servings

2 pkg Mushrooms, soaked and chopped
1 lb Button mushrooms
1/2 Medium onion, chopped
Salt and Pepper to taste
Soak Shitake mushrooms in warm water for at least an hour. Chop 1 lb button mushrooms roughly and 1/2 medium onion and sauté in butter until mushrooms cook down. Chop Shitake mushrooms fine and add mushrooms (and water they have been soaked in) in the to pan & simmer 5-6 min, until liquid starts to evaporate. Salt & pepper lightly. (This holds nicely in the refrigerator - if you make the mushrooms the day before you make the pierogi, they will absorb more flavor from the cooking liquid - or so it seems, but I'm not a chemist).

Potato Filling
12 servings

2 lb Potatoes (6 medium)
1/2 lb Butter
1 Minced onion (optional)
Salt and Pepper to taste
Cook potatoes till tender, drain well. Add butter, salt and pepper, onion and mash. When mixture is cool it is ready to use. Note: You may wish to combine cheese, or sauerkraut with potatoes; if so, it is best to combine 2/3 mashed potatoes to 1/3 other ingredients.

Sausage Filling
4 servings

10 oz Kielbasa, skin and chop
1/2 c Cheese, grated
1/2 c Mushrooms, chopped
1/4 c Bread crumbs, fine and dry
1 Egg
Salt and Pepper to taste
Fry the kielbasa in a pan and mix all ingredients together.

Unfortunately, eating out of hand could be messy....LOL

Nancy

Here is a recipe I found for Pasties.
The dough seems it might work for you.

Pasties
DOUGH:
1 c. all purpose flour
1 tsp. salt
1/8 tsp. baking powder
1/3 c. oil
3/4 c. (approx.) cold water (enough to make a soft ball)
FILLING:
1 1/2 - 2 raw potatoes, peeled and diced
1/4 lb. cubed steak (or raw hamburger)
1/4 raw onion, diced
Salt and pepper to taste
1 tsp. butter (optional)
DOUGH FOR EACH PASTY WHICH EQUALS 1 SERVING: Mix all ingredients together, except water. Mix with fork until consistency of cornmeal. Add cold water and mix to form ball. Roll dough out on floured board, 1/4 inch thick and size of an 8 inch pie crust.
FILLING: Cover half of dough with raw potatoes, raw meat and raw onions. Salt and pepper to taste. Dot with butter. Moisten edge of crust with water so edge will seal. Fold dough in half over filling, pressing edges together and then crimp or roll edges together. Prick a couple vent holes in the top and place on greased cookie sheet. Bake in preheated 350 oven for 45 minutes.
Recipe from 1998 Platt SD Hospital recipebook

~And I apolgize for leaving you speechless. It's just that upon reading your OP, then your reply to the suggestions/recipes you'd been given..my first thought was..(in the context of THIS forum) "you aren't gonna get alot of help with that take on things here"....
But alas..the folks at the CF are still giving more thoughts for you to process...well done friends...

It sounds like what you are looking for is a calzone type of doughk, (basically same as pizza, filling is put on one half of a smaller circle, dough is folded over and crimped, and then the calzones are baked. They can be made with any kind of fillings). Here are a couple of recipes.

Basic Calzone Dough

A web-exclusive recipe from Italian Cooking and Living

1 cup lukewarm water
21/4 teaspoons active dry yeast
1 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon sugar
3 cups flour, plus extra for dusting
1 tablespoon extra-virgin olive oil

In a bowl, combine the water, yeast, salt and sugar, and stir to dissolve. Set aside for 15 minutes, then add the flour, and mix until smooth. Turn the dough out onto a floured work surface, and knead for 10 minutes, adding more flour if necessary. The dough should feel smooth and elastic. Lightly oil a bowl, and place dough inside. Let rise in a warm place until doubled in size, about 1 hour. Quarter the dough, and shape each piece into a ball. Cover, and let rise another 15 minutes. Makes enough dough for 4 calzones.

1. Combine the ricotta, mozzarella, Parmigiano and parsley in a large bowl, and season with salt and pepper.

2. Roll the dough into a 1/4-inch thick circle, and place filling on one half.

3. Moisten the edges of the dough with water, then fold the dough over filling.

4. Seal by crimping the edges of the dough with your fingers or the times of a fork.

5. Brush calzone with an egg wash (1 egg beaten with 2 teasponns water).

6. Trim the excess dough, make a small incision on the top, and bake until golden, 18 to 20 minutes.

Light Wheat Pizza or Calzone Dough Recipe
Italian Bread

Ingredients:
1 1/2 cups lukewarm water
1 1/4 oz. package (about 1 tablespoon) active dry yeast
3 1/4 cups (approximately) unbleached flour
1/2 cup whole wheat flour
1/3 cup yellow cornmeal, preferably stoneground
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
2 tablespoons good-quality olive oil

Directions:
Pour the water into a large mixing bowl, stir in the yeast, and set aside for 5 minutes to dissolve. When the yeast has dissolved, beat in 1 1/2 cups of the unbleached flour, the whole wheat flour, and the cornmeal. Beat vigorously with a wooden spoon for 1 minute, cover the bowl with plastic wrap, and set aside in a warm, draft-free spot for 10 minutes.

After 10 minutes, stir in the salt and olive oil. Add the remaining unbleached flour, about 1/2 cup at a time, until you have a soft, kneadable dough. Turn the dough out onto a floured surface and knead vigorously for about 8 minutes, using sprinkles of flour to prevent sticking; you should have a soft, smooth, and elastic dough. Place the dough in a lightly oiled bowl and turn to coat the entire surface of the dough with oil. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap and set the dough aside in a warm, draft-free spot until doubled, about 1 hour.

Once the dough has doubled, it is recipe ready.

This dough is not "Fat Free", but it has very little fat.

Shelley

I did a google search on vegetarian dough minus the words, oil, butter, lard and quite a few vegan sites were found. Perhaps this is where you need to look.

Michelle