Replacing WW w/ Rye flour...grainlady?

16 years ago

Hi all,

I'm getting brave and trying something completely out of my repertoire. Crackers. But not for me, for the dog (less chance of failure that way). Because he has wheat allergies, we're substituting the whole wheat flour with rye flour.

Any suggestions for making sure these come out crunchy/crispy rather than crumbly? I'd like to store them in his regular treat jar and break them up as needed.

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Comments (8)

dgkritch
16 years ago
:-) Waving HI

Watching with interest................

Deanna (AKA "Mom")
grainlady_ks
16 years ago
If I were to venture a guess, I'd say the hydration will be off. Gluten in wheat flour is the "sponge" that soaks up liquid. Rye flour has very little gluten, so will not require as much hydration in a recipe that calls for wheat flour. If you've made the dog "crackers" before, add enough flour to get the consistency needed, not necessarily the amount called for in the recipe.

I'd also warn you, rye dough is typically very sticky, even with the correct hydration. You may find you have better results mixing and kneading the dough (if necessary) in a large freezer-style zip-lock bag (press out as much air as possible), instead of a bowl. People typically mistaken the "stickiness" with needing to add more flour, and that's not necessarily the case - it's just sticky stuff! To get the dough out of the bag, just push it to one side, open the bag and turn it inside out. You may find the dough is easier to work with if you have wet hands, so keep a bowl of water handy to dip your hands in, as needed.

As far as texture, I have no idea. You may need to "tweak" other ingredients or baking time to get the texture you want, so start by making 1/2 or 1/4 of a recipe to see what happens so you don't waste ingredients. I'd also suggest you do a google search, or contact your Vet., to see if you can find a pooch-friendly recipe that uses rye instead of wheat.

-Grainlady
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Dark rye flour is like using whole wheat flour, or a 100% extraction - it's milled from the whole grain so you have the bran, germ and endosperm making up the flour. Light rye is like using unbleached flour - 60% extraction - the bran and germ have been removed. Medium rye is between 75-85% extraction and may contain some bran/germ. Light rye will be much lighter in color and texture in a recipe than dark or medium rye. In and of itself, rye flour doesn't impact the flavor of bread all that much, it's all the add-ins associated with "rye bread" that flavor it: coffee, molasses, onions, caraway seeds, fennel seeds, etc. You can add caraway seeds to white bread and people will think it's a light rye bread because caraway is the flavor they associate with rye, not the rye itself. You can use rye flour in recipes that don't require a lot of gluten development - try it in cookies, muffins and other quick breads - in combination with wheat flour. What we call Pumpernickel Bread in the U.S. has very little in common with real pumpernickel, which is a heavy, coarse steamed bread. This was a favorite BM recipe from "Bread Machines for Dummies" by Glenna Vance and Tom Lacalamita. LIGHT RYE BREAD (instructions for 1-1/2 # loaf with changes in (----) for 2#) 1 c. water (1-1/2 c.) 4 t. vegetable oil (2 T.) 1-1/2 t. salt (2 t.) 2 T. sugar (3 T.) 1-1/2 t. fennel seeds (2 t.) 1 t. caraway seeds (1-1/2 t.) 1-1/3 c. medium rye flour (1-2/3 c.) 2 c. bread flour (2-1/2 c.) 2-1/4 t. active dry yeast (1 T.) - do not use a fast-rising yeast 1. Be sure all the ingredients are at room temperature before you place them in your bread pan in the order listed. 2. Select the Normal or Basic setting and a light to medium crust color and press Start. 3. Open the lid after the machine has kneaded the dough for about 5 minutes. the dough should be formed into a very soft, sticky ball. If the dough is sticking to the sides or the bottom of the pan, you need to add a bit more bread flour. If the dough appears firm, add more water. Your machine still has kneading time and will work the water into your bread dough. Keep checking your dough until you're satisfied that a soft, sticky ball has formed. 4. After the machine has completed the baking cycle, remove the pan from the machine and the bread from the pan to cool on a wire rack. If you cut the bread before it's cooled for about an hour, it will look doughy. The bread has to cool completely to allow the structure to set. Per serving - 12 servings per 1-1/2# loaf, 16 servings per 2#. Calories - 130; Protein 4 g; Carbohydrates 26 g; Dietary fiber 2 g; Total fat 2 g; Saturated fat 0 g; Cholesterol 0 mg; Sodium 290 mg. Grainlady note: This recipe is great with dilly cream cheese on it and topped with sliced cucumbers. I always made it with 100% rye flour milled from the whole grain I milled at home. PUMPERNICKEL \- makes 2 7x3\-1/2\-inch loaves (source: Bread of the World \- by Jennie Shapter) 4 c. dark rye flour 2 c. whole wheat flour 2/3 c. bulgur wheat 2 t. salt 2 T. molasses 3\-1/2 c. warm water 1 T. vegetable oil 1\. Lightly grease two 7x3\-1/2\-inch loaf pans. combine the rye flour, whole wheat flour, bulgur wheat and salt in a large bowl. 2\. Mix the molasses with the warm water and add to the flours and the vegetable oil. combine to form a dense mass. 3\. Place in the prepared pans, pressing well into the corners. Cover with lightly oiled plastic wrap and let sit in a warm place for 18\-24\-hours. 4\. Preheat the oven to 225\-degrees F. Remove the plastic and cover the pans tightly with foil. Fill a roasting pan with boiling water and place a rack on top. 5\. Place the pans on top of the rack and transfer very carefully to the oven. Bake the loaves for 4\-hours. Increase the oven temperature to 325\-degrees F. Top up the water in the roasting pan if necessary, uncover the loaves and bake for another 30\-45 minutes or until the loaves feel firm and the tops are crusty. 6\. Let cool in the pans for 5 minutes, then turn out onto a wire rack to cool completely. Serve cool, very thinly sliced, with cold meats. Cooks tip: This bread improves over time. Keep for at least 24 hours double\-wrapped inside a plastic bag or waxed paper and foil before slicing. \-Grainlady
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To go along with readinglady's great information... I don't think all recipes are written well to begin with, and this one is a good example of that. Recipes often fail to use good breadmaking science, therefore are often wrought with problems because of that. I contend the higher protein flour milled from wheat as well as the vital wheat gluten should be added first and the gluten well-developed during the mixing stage, rather than the low-gluten rye. The gluten needs to hydrate in the higher-gluten flour and develop during the mixing stage much more than the kneading stage in this recipe. There's not a good reason to add the rye flour until the latter stage of mixing because it has little gluten to develop while the higher gluten flour requires more mixing time as well as kneading. Concerning the vinegar... It's considered a flavoring and as readinglady pointed out you can use too much. I'd cut it to 1/2 t. because too much vinegar contributes too much acidity and it will kill the bakers' yeast and it also tears down the gluten. This recipe is already a little low on gluten considering the use of all-purpose flour and a very high ratio of rye flour - even with the added vital wheat gluten. -Grainlady
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pfmastin - Bread machine recipes yield approximately 1-, 1-1/2-, and 2-pounds of dough, and are printed as such in the bread machine cookbooks and recipes. The bread machine only bakes one loaf at a time. I use the bread machine for making the dough only and I bake the bread in my regular oven or convection/microwave oven. By doing so, I utilize the large 2-pound recipes and divide the dough into more than one loaf. I can get 3 small loaves (under 1-pound of dough each), or 2 regular size loaves from most 2-pound recipes. I generally make recipes that contain 5-6 cups of flour and well over 2-pounds of dough. With that much dough I make a 1-pound pullman loaf. This makes a crustless, square loaf of sandwich bread (hubby takes sandwiches to work 2-3 days). The remainder of the dough may be used any number of ways - another regular loaf, pecan or cinnamon rolls, dinner rolls, hamburger/sandwich buns, hot dog buns... The Zo has a flour capacity of 5 cups - this is important to know if you are going to bake in the machine. If you make a recipe with more than 5-6 cups of flour, you will want to use the bread machine for mixing/kneading ONLY. Take the dough out as soon as the kneading in done and put the dough in a dough rising bucket (or bowl) to rise. You need to scale the dough (weigh it on a kitchen scale), divide it, and scale it again for the proper size pan you want to use. You'll often find a recipe that says it's 2-pounds is 2-pounds 8-ounces. General guideline for loaf sizes. Farm Loaves - 10x4-1/2" pan - 4-5 cups flour = 2-3-pounds dough 9x5" (are designed for quick breads) - 4 cups flour = 2-pounds Standard - 8-1/2x4-1/2" - 3 cups flour - 1-1/2-pound Medium - 7-1/2x3-1/2" - 2-1/2 cups flour - 1-pound You can also make consecutive recipes of dough in the bread machine. I do this by making the recipe on the Quick Dough Cycle. As soon as the dough is done kneading, I unplug the machine, remove the dough and put it in a dough rising bucket. I add the ingredients to the bread machine pan for another recipe to the bread machine. On a marathon baking day, I've made 4 consecutive recipes. -Grainlady
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lexie1397
Original Author
16 years ago
Ok, I know it's been a while since the original idea... but I'm back with updates.

I decided that I didn't want to fuss with both new ingredients and new techniques. That would leave me with only instinct to ensure things came out as planned and they're not always reliable!

Instead I used a recipe called Good Dog Biscuits I found on doggiebistro.com and adapted it as follows:
2 C rye flour, plus a little
3/4 C steel cut oats
1/2 C nutritional yeast
2 tsp garlic powder
2 egg yolks
1 1/2 Cups boiling water with approx 1 1/2 Tbsp beef boullion
Mix all in stand mixer (I discovered that the eggs either need to be tempered or mixed in VERY quickly once the boiling water is added). Plop on plastic wrap and freeze until hard enough to cut into 1/4 inch slices (I recommend a serrated knife due to the steel cut oats still being rather hard).
Bake 375 for 20 mins if brought to room temp or longer if still frozen/cold. Turn oven off and leave biscuits in oven overnight or until cooled to ensure they are dry and crunchy.

Couple of thoughts... Grainlady was right, and I could have probably used 3/4 cup of broth mix since the rye flour got very sticky (these were originally supposed to be rolled) and I was slightly short on the steel cut oats and the nutritional yeast.
This calls for way too much garlic for my taste-the house smells like meatloaf and the dog wasn't too keen on the dough. I'm sure he'll find them more appetizing once they're done and he doesn't have to lick it off my finger, though.
As they're baking now, I'm pleased to see that they're not spreading so I can pack them on the cookie sheet next time.

Will try to remember to comment on the finished product tomorrow when they're dry, cool and have been taste tested.
dgkritch
16 years ago
Wow! You'll have to teach Porter to say "Thank You!"

Deanna
Terri_PacNW
16 years ago
Well, how did they go over?

I often make Jillian's treats. But found some wheat free ones at Walmart. She likes them. I'm going to try making her my usual recipe but using sorghum and maybe brown rice flour too.
I put fresh herbs from the garden in them, and no garlic.

Molasses Onasis

Ingredients
2 cups whole wheat flour
Â½ cup white flour
1 Tsp Salt
2 Tbs Vegetable Oil (usually use some meat fat/drippings or EVOO)
Â¼ Cup Milk
Â¼ Cup Cornmeal
1 Tsp Garlic Powder
Â¼ Cup Oatmeal
Â¼ cup molasses
2 large eggs

Preheat oven to 350. Mix dry ingredients. Add oil, molasses, eggs and milk. Add more milk as needed to make firm dough. Roll the dough so that it is Â¼" thick and cut into shapes. Bake on lightly oiled cookie sheet for 25-30 minutes. (Less time for chewy treats)
grainlady_ks
16 years ago
Terri - I would suspect sorghum will be grainy and rice flour will make them crunchy. Adding up to 20% rice flour to a cookie recipe is a trick for making really crispy cookies and will probably do the same thing in dog biscuits. Short- or medium-grain rice milled into flour is a better choice for baking than long-grain rice. You can mill your own rice flour in a coffee/spice mill.

When I've made dog biscuits, there was so much garlic in them the house smelled like there had been an Italian Cook-Off going on in the kitchen after baking (LOL). I always thought garlic was good for dogs, but just read a magazine article that lists garlic in with this list of "Don't Feed This to Fido"... Why? Damage red blood cells causing anemia. Possible effects of Poisoning: Vomiting, red-colored urine, weakness, anemia.

1. chocolate
2. grapes, raisins
3. garlic, onions
4. xylitol
5. alcoholic drinks
6. raw yeast, bread dough
7. macadamia nuts
8. avocados

ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center - (888-426-4435)

-Grainlady
Terri_PacNW
16 years ago
Thanks for the feedback GL!

I've got lots of flours in the pantry or freezer. She's fine with some wheat..but she does get a yeasty ear..so I try not to over do it..I can tell when the boys are sneaking her her FAVORITE treat..a heal from their bread package..next thing you know...ear issues.

I'll have to play around with some flours.
lexie1397
Original Author
16 years ago
They're ok. Most of the fault is in human error and perspective, although the dog doesn't find them quite as interesting as other things we've tried recently.

Because I sliced them off a log, they're much too large to give as is (he's under 20 lbs) and WAY too hard to break by hand. I actually had to break them with the butt end of the kitchen knife! I've stuffed them into a toy so he has to work to get it out and that seems to be the best use of them.

Maybe next time I really will try the cracker recipe!

Replacing WW w/ Rye flour...grainlady?

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dgkritch

grainlady_ks

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Replacing WW w/ Rye flour...grainlady?

Comments (8)

dgkritch

grainlady_ks

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Terri_PacNW

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