You'll get more replies if you move the images into a post in this thread. Flipping back and forth between here and another site is very cumbersome. The problem comes in when one is writing a reply and moving between the sites: one often loses an in-progress comment when checking back to the other site.

Also make a measured floor drawing of the proposed layout you're thinking off. Elevations don't really provide enough info for good comments. You don't need a computer generated floor plan. One drawn on graph paper with dimensions noted on it will be fine. Take a pic of it, put the pic of the drawing on your photosharing place (like PB) and then copy it into your post.

Is your fridge choice set in stone (i.e. you already have it?) If not, perhaps a smaller one would work better in a tight space. Doing your functional design/layout before you start commiting (even in your mind) to decorative or appliance choices is the easiest way. No one does this perfectly, but the more you can hold off, the simpler it will be for you.

That's why a floor plan layout is much more useful to work with at this stage than a pretty cab diagram.

Have your read the info in the "READ ME" thread that floats around the front pages? Spending time thinking about your space and needs and doing things like working out the "Sweeby Test" will set you on the most efficient pathway to the best kitchen you can create.

HTH,

L.

Here's one quick functional thought:

If your kitchen is small (and you have a dining room nearby) why have two more kinds of eating areas in your kitchen? I get why you might want some casual seating positions for a quick snack or breakfast there, but you need a lot of space for a table with chairs plus stools along a counter. Choose one or the other. I'm an eat in the dining room person so my choice would be counter seating, but no eat-in kitchen as I could eat any meal in the DR, but wouldn't want to be w/o a "perch" in the kitchen. (My perch will actually be a rocking chair, not counter seating, but that's because I prefer that - and it's what works in my space.)

It's always tempting to want to have every attractive feature from every kitchen you have seen. The best designs are those that are severely edited down to what works best in one particular space.

Anyway, a floor plan is where you'll be able to work out the space constraints and have your options most clearly spelled out before choosing what's most important to you.

HTH,

L.

I agree you need to get your pics on the thread and not the link.

My concern was the hallway that you are blocking off. It looks like the main entry is on the north side of the page. A person coming from that end would have to go the entire length of the kitchen (on the family room side) and then back again. Not seeing the rest of the house layout of course this is only a presumption. Though this looks good from the kitchen, I'm thinking that this would be a possible killer for the functioning of the house.

Here ya go:

{{!gwi}}

That is exactly what I worried about. There is no door from living room/dining room to the kitchen if the existing door is blocked and it takes quite a few walk to go to the kitchen. The hall way wall has pipes, etc. (thicker than other walls) and may not be shortened. On the other hand, this door is all the way to the side and not covient to use with the current design. If leave this door as it is, will elimilating the eating area be a better option?
I'm new to this site and have not figured out how to paste the images directly to the message. Can someone telle me? Will try tonight.
Thanks a lot.

Nice of you to try to post the image in this thread, abfabamy, but it doesn't show up. I tried to do so and got an error message, "That image has already been posted to another forum."

Cyndi_oy, to post images within threads, follow the instructions about how to post photos in the "New to Kitchens" thread?

I echo liriodendron's suggestion: post your images in this thread and provide a measured floor drawing of the lay-out. You may get assistance without doing this but you'll get more help if you do these simple steps.

Here is a link that might be useful: New To Kitchens? Posting Pics? Read Me!

OMG! I think it didn't show cuz I posted then deleted the pic from my photobucket! Let's try again...

{{!gwi}}

Thanks, abfabamy, but we still need a measured floor plan from the OP (at least I do). I think there are faint grid lines but the image is too small and the lines are too faint to be useful.

Cyndi_oy, I'm a bit confused about what these images show. One of the two 3-D images seems to match the floor plan. Is that the current or proposed kitchen? Oh, wait, it sounds like that is the current kitchen based on what you wrote above so yes we do need a measured floor plan of your proposed lay-out. We also need to know more about you and your needs. Please read the "New to Kitchens" thread that I linked to and that liriodendron refers to so that you can see the type of info we need to help you create a great kitchen.

I'm not sure why venting the cooktop on the East side wouldn't work. Unless you kitchen is actively on fire I can't imagine your neighbor actually noticing anything coming out of the vent. If then you're able to move the range to the East wall, it would naturally open up your options.

Even though the range wall is load bearing, it shouldn't cost much to move the 3' doorway NW corner. I'm not sure how the skylight would be effected. By doing this the family room/dining room access would be opened which was a huge traffic flow when all my kids were at home.

You could design a u-shaped kitchen or an L with an island depending on the measurements of the room. It's real hard to tell how much you have room for.

Please let us know if moving the dining room doorway is an option.

and

If you can move the range to the East wall.

This will guide myself and others for suggestions.

Now I learned how to do the pictures but they are still small.

The current kitchen floor plan does not utilize the space efficiently:

The ground floor layout:

The new kitchen that blocks the dining room to kitchen door:

Moving the door way to another location would be the last option. The sky light has 3/5 in the kitchen and 2/5 in the dining room. Moving the range may be an option. Because I do cook a lot on the stove and the vent location may be limited (current vent is only 8' above the floor), I'm more worried about the neighbor.

Just blowing up your pix for you:

The ground floor layout:

The new kitchen that blocks the dining room to kitchen door:

Sorry but some things are throwing me off. I think there is only one main window in the kitchen/dinette. When I compare the last two pictures and orient myself with the large window, it looks like you are completely closing off all doorways to the dining room. I must be missing something as I thought you said that would be a "last option". Are you adding additional windows. Perhaps if you indicated the dining room, and family room walls in your kitchen layouts that would help me make better suggestions.

Yes, there is only one bay window (92in wide) on the south side. There is no real wall between kitchen and family room (start from where the couch is). The closet wall is 90in high and the ceiling is 96in.

In the above new kitchen drawing, the doorway from dinging room to the kitchen is closed completely. Initially I was thinking to relocate it towards the center (to where the new fridge is). I think the question now is whether to leave the door as is or close it. If the door is kept, what new kitchen layout should be for it to function better than now? If the door is closed, there is only one 30in door in the family room that leads to the kitchen from north side of the house (entrance, living/dining room, upstairs) and is particularly awkward to go from dining room to the kitchen, which is why I wanted to keep the eating area.

So this may be a shot in the dark since you haven't told us anything about you - how many cooks, how many in your family, what you like to cook, do you like to bake, etc - but here goes anyway.

I estimated the width at 153.5" (12'5" + 4.5" thickness for the removed wall).

I moved the pocket door to the other end of your kitchen to give you a direct route between kitchen and DR. Given what you wrote above, it sounds as if the reason you were trying to keep a table eating area in the kitchen was because your plan had a long path between kitchen and DR. Since I added a doorway, I eliminated the table eating area in the kitchen.

Moving the pocket door also allowed me to create an L with island lay-out, with the island running the length of the room, not the width. The range stays in about the same place as it was but the fridge moves to the long wall.

The fridge cab is sized to hold a 36" wide fridge so you have room to grow when you purchase a new fridge (36" is or is becoming the more common size). I allowed for your current standard depth (SD) fridge but if you can budget for one, consider a CD (counter depth) fridge when you remodel (CD fridges are roughly 29" with required air clearance behind them, not including handles). This would allow you to move the island up to 6" towards the sink wall, which gives you more clearance between seating and couch (I shifted your couch 3" into the FR to allow for SD fridge and island placement).

A 40" aisle behind seating is less than NKBA recs (they suggest 44" for walk behind seating space) but I think you can do with less since it's between island and couch, not between island and wall (you have upper body clearance. Does that make sense?). We have 40" between island and table for a main aisle through our kitchen and even when people are seated at the table, it's not an issue for us. I would like to have more, of course, which is why I recommend a CD fridge and shifting the island towards the sink wall.

The island is deep enough to allow for 24" cabinets, 1.5" counter overhang, 15" seating overhang, and a decorative panel on the backside of the cabs. I gave you 4 seats at the counter. You can add a prep sink to the island, if you wish, either across from the fridge or at the other end of the island, across from the range. Allow for an 18"-21" wide cabinet for a prep sink (check specs of chosen prep sink to determine what size cab you need).

The 42" wide, 12" deep pantry can include a small MW to make this a snack area (GE Spacemaker II are sized to fit a standard 12" deep upper cabinet).

Lisa, your plan functions so much better! I do have a few tweaks to suggest.

1. Being that we had a simililar issue when we closed off a doorway from kitchen to dining room. Though we used the dining room evey night, it wasn't really much of an issue. Since the kitchen/dining room wall is load bearing it's highly unlikely that the perpendicular wall (hallway) isn't. If Cyndi shortened/eliminated the perpendicular wall, it would be an even shorter distance. No looping around. This would also allow for about 53" of cabinets in the kitchen, which she expressed a need for.

2. Whether or not she chooses to do this, I would move the frig to the kitchen/dining room wall on the very end. This would enable easy access to the frig via the family room and dining room, when setting the table out and putting things away after dinner. The island would have to be repositioned due to the frig pinch points being on that side instead of the old side.

3. I would then move the range to the outside wall. Better venting options (I don't see this bothering the neighbors). A shorter pantry would be needed to allow for space on either side of the range.

Thank you for the suggestions. Is there a layout that will work by keeping the door way? The sliding door is not really a pocket door but I don't know how to draw it. It is all the way to the ceiling with paper lite and completely on the dining room side.

I do mostly cooking and seldom baking. There are two cooks. I just don't like the closet wall that blocks the view of the family room and makes the kitchen smaller than it is.

The answere to your question is leaving the doorway on the end where 2 countertops are effected, it really decreases your kitchen options down severely.

With Lisa's layout you could easily remove the wall to the family room if it's not load bearing. If not beautiful pillars can be created depending on the architecture in the house.

Cyndy, the lay-out I posted keeps a doorway between kitchen and DR. Your comments make me think you didn't see my lay-out. I'm not sure what a "paper lite" is but there should be no reason - other than a little extra labor and cost - why the doorway can't be moved. At least you haven't stated any reason why the doorway can't be moved. By ...completely on the dining room side do you mean that the door is a swing door and swings into the DR?

Oh, wait, are you asking if there's a lay-out that works with the existing door's location? Right now I can't envision one that doesn't give up function because of that doorway's location but let me play with it a bit.

Aloha, that hallway wall can't be changed. Cyndy wrote, The hall way wall has pipes, etc. (thicker than other walls) and may not be shortened.

Lisa, thanks for reminding me, I forgot about that.

On my other response, I meant to say that the likelihood of the perpendicular wall in the hallway being load bearing is highly unlikely.

Aloha, I forgot to reply to #2 in your post.

I did look at other options, including moving the fridge to the DR wall and the range to the back wall, and decided that Plan A was the best of the bunch. I don't think there's enough room to make your idea work well, not without several compromises. Now if you think it does, please explain how it would work (in other words, do the math and show how it would work, please).

The island would not shift down, it would shrink to 61" (allowing 42" aisles at each end), which means it would only seat 3 people, not 4. Cyndy has yet to tell us how many people live in her house, whether there are children, how many seats she needs in the kitchen (Cyndy, please read the "New to Kitchens" thread to see the information we need for lay-out advice) so I opted to go for the plan that offered more seats at the island, not fewer.

Lisa, I saw your drawing.

I prefer the island can seat 4 although most of the time we only have 3. I don't have small children. I may not need 42" clearance on the window side as the bay window is as low as the couch and extend ~15"out from the wall. Will it be appropriate if I use a 24" regular depth pantry and leave the corner empty?

My family room is 6" lower than the kitchen. Will this be a problem at all?

I didn't get down to the measurements, but I would still think it would work but now I see only if a counterdepth refrigerator is used where you have the pocket door. It looks like there would still be a 30" opening doorway. If there isn't a 30" opening left (I can't see that detail), I would rework things. The frig being so far from the main eating area, would be a deal breaker for me. The island could stay as you have it your design.

Another option was to go with Cyndi's design, except make the island into a pennisula where she could then have up to 6 seats on two sides. Depending on storage needs the family room wall could be utilized as a shallow pantry.

I didn't see any cabinets above the sink, so perhaps the large window in the dinette is all there is. I'd add more windows and find storage elsewhere then upper cabinets.

You could extend the island 2" and shrink the end aisle to 40" but I wouldn't go less than that. The bay offers upper body clearance but you still need floor space for the stool and for someone to walk behind it (they need foot space).

If you posted that the FR floor is 6" lower than the kitchen, I missed that detail. In that case, I strongly encourage you to purchase a CD fridge so that you can move the island closer to the sink wall so that you gain enough clearance between island seating and the change in floor level.

Are you asking if you can do a 24" wide, 24" deep pantry in place of a 42" wide, 12" deep pantry, placing it 18" in from the corner? Yes, you can. You actually gain a bit more storage space by doing so. A 24 x 24 x 84 pantry gives you 28 cu ft of storage, a 42 x 24 x 84 pantry gives you 24.5 cu ft of storage. I don't think it will look as good as a shallow pantry - the deeper pantry may visually crowd the window - but this may not bother you. Do a mock-up (cardboard boxes work well) to create a pantry in the size and location you're considering and see what you think.

Aloha, I was asking how you think my Plan A - with a door between kitchen and DR - would work with the fridge moved to the DR wall. You wrote Whether or not she chooses to do this, I would move the frig to the kitchen/dining room wall on the very end and I assumed that "this" refers to closing off the door. But maybe you meant that moving the fridge would only work if the door was eliminated. From what Cyndy wrote, it sounds like she's only willing to do that if there's table seating in the kitchen, which is what her plan shows, not mine.

I did the math for moving the fridge while keeping the door and I couldn't come up with a decent plan that did not come with all kinds of compromises. If you can see how to make that variation work, please explain how the floor plan would look (I'm assuming you don't have the ability to draw your ideas up but if you do, please do because visuals are so much better).

HI Cyndi,

The size of your kitchen and dining room is what my kitchen is now in my house. Have you thought of eliminating the dining room and turning into one large kitchen. I think dining rooms are overrated. I only use my dining room for holidays, a precious waste of space if your house space is limited. I redid my kitchen 10 years ago; it was long and narrow. I don't think the new design you have is bad at all, except that your dining room is totally blocked from the kitchen. It will make using your dining room very difficult.

Lisa, I have the tools but now not enough time with my GD coming over to spend the night here soon.

Either your plan A or Cyndi's plan would work IMO, it just depends on what trade offs she wants. Where in your plan A, you have a pocket door on the dining/kitchen wall, this is where I think the frig would go (like Cyndi's design has it). The wall in the hallway that's perpendicular to the dining/kitchen would be taken down. This would then mean just a few steps (1-2) around instead of through the pocket door.

Cyndi already has the kitchen part of that wall in her plan. I would just suggest eliminating that hallway hall in hers too, to minimize the walk from dining to kitchen. She could move her island up and make it into a u-shape with a pennisula with no dinette. The family room wall could become a narrow pantry.

Another option would be to keep Cyndi's plan, but eliminate the dinette and put in a bigger island. Depending on how large she could change the orientation from what it is now.

HTH

Aloha, you keep suggesting that the wall in the hallway perpendicular to the DR and kitchen can be removed but Cyndy has stated that the wall is filled with pipes, etc (thicker than other walls) and may not be shortened. If it can't be shortened, it certainly can't be removed. So it won't be just 1-2 steps more than through a door, pocket or otherwise (I only drew a pocket door because that's what Cyndy showed on her plan).

Lisa, I had a few minutes and reread cyndi's post, and you are very right. I was mixing the the walls up. Now that I'm on the same page (I'm hoping), why not just remove the tall pony wall from kitchen to family room completely! This would make a much more contemporary look with the kitchen open to the family room.

I'd still move the frig but now understanding the layout more, I'd place the frig on the very end of the counter next to the pocket door. The range could be moved approx. where the current DW is in your layout. The sink then could be moved to the island.

I think there are so many options but I do think it's pretty clear that the one doorway will have to be blocked off to open up viable options. From that point, Cyndi is going to have to decide on whether the island should be oriented to the FR or backyard, or perhaps a pennisula

I kinda find the adjacency of the floating sofa to the island problematic. My feeling is that you may want some kind of separation there. I feel like you may be leaping from very enclosed to "too" open.--The new plan is turning it into a two room first floor.

The wall between kitchen and FR *is* gone in Cyndy's proposed lay-out and in my Plan A.

If the island were longer, I'd agree with your suggested changes. In fact, I tried that configuration in my first attempt. However, I couldn't make it work without resorting to a smaller sink cab (28" or smaller, reducing sink choices at the same time), overlapping clean-up/eating areas and/or sacrificing aisle widths. It's not a trade-off I would make. But I don't perceive having the fridge on the back wall at the end of the island - a straight shot from the FR - as a big deal.

Cyndy, I can't come up with a decent plan that keeps the existing doorway where it is. I had ideas but I don't think any of them were much of an improvement and certainly didn't give you sufficient counter space and storage. Is there a reason why you are reluctant to move the doorway?

I put the sofa there because I don't know how to handle the transition from a floor that is 6" higher or lower. The sofa kind blocks this. The door to the family room is at the same level as kitchen floor with about 6'curved floor to separate it from the family room floor. You can see from the house plan. It is also very hard to do the floor covering there.

Aloha, do you mean I can keep the dining room door by moving the range to east wall and leave the frig as currently it is and sink on the island?

I'll try to draw up something as everyone suggested to see how they turn up.

Lisa, I understand that the wall is completely gone in the new plans, I am saying I think that it's problematic. Placing a sofa to "block" something is seat of the pants problem solving, and generally a new layout is not supposed to create more problems that need to be solved. I think there needs to be some kind of architectural delineation there because of the level change, not just at the floor level. A one step level change also creates a tripping hazard because some people cannot discern a floor level change of around 6 inches. Some people can only readily discern a 2 step level change at floor level.

pal, I was replying to Aloha, not you. I didn't see your earlier post until now. I missed the earlier mention of the floor level change, only realizing it when Cyndy posted it at 16:05 today (that's what happens when information is posted but photos aren't included in the thread until later in the thread - details get overlooked). I never suggested placing the sofa to block anything. Or were you making that comment to Cyndy?

How would you add architectural delineation? Columns? Or maybe take the wall down to a half wall?

Yes, the OP is the one who made the comment about using the sofa to block part of the level change.

By architectural delineation, yes, I mean columns or something to indicate the level change. You don't want someone who is not familiar with the house to trip going up into the kitchen area or fall off the step coming down. If there is something else there, it usually triggers something so you notice these things more and alter your step.

I would suggest looking at the work of Sarah Susanka of "The Not So Big House" because she builds small houses but articulates the transitions between rooms well.

Thanks. Does a change in floor material do the same thing or is that not enough?

It is sometimes enough if the color change is distinct, but the problem is that people often have a change in flooring finish between Kitchen and adjacent living spaces that does Not signify a level change, so it may not work.

The building I live in is old, it was added onto and when it was converted to apartments, there ended up being a couple areas were there are one step level changes. There is one outside my unit and I tell people every time "Watch the step" and people still trip on it sometimes.

In my bathroom the floor level changes about 1-1/2 inches, which should be worse, but since it is in a doorway And there is a distinct material change, (ebonized oak to white marble and tile) nobody trips there. There are a couple of cues that there may be a threshold.

If it's wide open and not differentiated, I am really thinking that people will fall.

palimpest is right on the money about tripping hazard. We were invited to a dinner to a recently finished house done with a very 'famous' architect in the city. There was 1 step between the island seating and the living room in a very open way, just like yours. The LR was down from the island seating. My husband almost fell off the step. We were young and spry. So being old and frail was not our excuse. We weren't even drinking.

Our house has 2 steps between the LR and DR,about 1 ft in height. No one trips there because there are enough steps so that people can see the transition.

Angie,
You also have a step down from the LR to the FR with a odd quarter circle landing. That looks really odd to me. I had something similar in my house years ago and I hated it! I spend alot of money to get rid of it and I am really glad that I did.

Is it possible to raise the floor in that room. Raising the floor is cheap if the ceiling height can accomodate it and the window will height works. And if the exit to the outside can accomodate it. It usually is an issue with the exit because the landscaping is done with the current door sill height.

I thought about raise the FR floor. It will require the exit door to the back yard to be raised. This will make the windows in kitchen and family room (on the same wall) ~6" lower than the door. Does that mean the windows also need to be raised as well? My living room is also 6' lower than DR.