I would put the dw between the sink and stove. We have that now for 4 years and while not ideal, it is doable. We also have a 12" cab between the stove and wall and it is really impractical. Too big not to use and too small to really do anything with it. No elbow bumping, but I'd make sure to have at least 15" there. It would be worth putting the dw between the sink and range in order to get more room on the other side of the stove IMHO

BTW - my current kitchen was put in by the p.o. and is slated for demo soon....
HTH

Thank you Dianalo! It's so good when someone is living with what you have! I keep thinking that if I make it 9" to the wall that will give me more space on the other side, but hearing you say at least 15" makes me think again. This is a crazy space and has driven a KD and architect nuts... Or maybe it was me LOL.

I would not put the DW b/w the range & sink...and it's not just b/c of a tripping hazard. If you have just 18" b/w the sink & wall, that means there will not be enough room for dirty dishes. So, where will they end up? In your prep space b/w the sink & range.

OTOH, if you put the DW against the wall, you will now have enough room for any dirty pots & pans, dishes, etc. over the DW and you will be able to keep the prep space free & clear for prepping.

If you always start w/a clean sink & counter and empty DW (i.e., all dishes are clean and put away) and do not load the DW while prepping & cooking, then it may work out OK with the DW b/w the range & sink and with limited space b/w the wall & sink.

Sink base: Why are you getting a 27" for a 21" sink? I would get a 24" sink base...those extra 3" can then be added to a drawer bank...a much, much better use of 3" than wasting it in a sink base. Sink bases notoriously are poor storage cabinets.

This is what I would do:

24" DW + 24" sink base + 18" Trash + 21" drawer base + 30" range + 12" cabinet

This gives you your 39" of work space b/w the sink & range (18" + 21")

Due to your limited space, I think a 12" cabinet b/w the wall & range is an acceptable compromise to give you the additional work space. 12" should give you enough elbow room & as well as emergency landing space on that side.

If you want 15", then you will have 36" of work space b/w the range & sink.

One question...is the length of the room exactly 129"? If it is, then you will not be able to fit everything in with the current measurements. You will need an inch or so b/w the range and adjacent cabs on both sides. Will you have frameless, full overlay, partial overlay, or inset cabinets? If frameless or full overlay, you will also need 1/2" or so of filler b/w the DW & wall (or cab & wall) and 1/2" of filler b/w the wall and 12" (or 15") cab.

You don't want the range up against the wall...my parents have that and I grew up with it...and never liked it. (No emergency landing space, no elbow room, and the wall has been subjected to cooking w/no range hood for over 50 years now...not a pretty sight!)

We had 12" cabinet one side of stove in last house we lived in. It worked out just fine.

Can you put the range on the adjoining wall, in the nook where a 30'' drawer stack is drawn now? Makes for tight quarters on the range, but a substantial shelf above the rangetop would help and there is landing space just a pivot to the left. I am not clear what that nook is and if this is feasible, but if it works, it would give you more options for the main counter run.

Could you live with an 18" DW? If you are two people... probably so. If you followed Buehl's idea with your layout that would then give you REAl glorious prep space for your range

The other thought is, can you put a 30'' refrigerator in the nook instead of the 30'' drawer stack? Is it deep enough or can it be made so, is there enough door opening clearance? Looks like Frigidaire, and maybe others, make a 30'' left hinge refrigerator, appx 18 cu ft. A bit small for a family maybe, but if it's only two of you . . .

If that were possible, then the range could go on the interior wall, where you have the refrigerator now. Have to check venting options, is this a single story house?

The counter run under the window becomes spacious indeed. There is plenty of elbow room on either side of the range. And you start using both sides of the kitchen rather than squeezing all the prep cook wash into one side only.

I can't tell from the plans if any of these ideas work.

this has the potential to be a great space with lots of storage.

On one side, you have full depth available. I'll guess that you are planning to have 24" deep cabinets and a 26" deep countertop. Please confirm yeah or nay.

Opposite it is a row not as deep, but it can go full height to the ceiling. Please confirm.

On one of the side walls, you have a 30" drawer stack. Looks like it is embedded (or recessed). Please confirm. Please explain this more.

--

For a few minutes, forget about the cabinets and look only at the counter. Imagine that later on you will slide cabinets of any size underneath. A sink can straddle two cabinets, easily, without complication.
For another few minutes, imagine there is a wall, with daylight coming through it everywhere, and NOT through the existing window or any other new window dreamt of. Pretend the wall is just an opaque translucent partition with nothing on it.

Starting from this imaginary situation, position the sink where you want it to be.
Place the range too.
This will give you the large expanse of counter you want.
Placing the dishwasher against the wall makes sense.
There are 18" dishwashers and they are great. More convincing can be said later.
There are dishwashers made specifically to handle a sink above them; they have a space carved out of them. It's an option.
Placing the dishwasher in the middle allows you to push the sink farther over nearer to the wall. Your choice.

At the other end, between the range and the wall, plan for open shelves that will be cut to size as a last step, to fill whatever space is left over after you get the cabinets installed. Open shelves, but they can be covered with a piece of cutting board so you will still have that ideal "safety counter" next to the cooking surface, between the wall and the range. Doing this allows you to maximize the central counter area, which is your main goal described in your first post.

--

If you make the regular size row into an extra deep row (e.g. 26" deep drawers, full extension 650mm Blum Tandembox), you lose some of the embedded (side wall) drawers, and you gain a huge amount of storage space.

What to put on the wall? I'll cover that later.

What to do on the opposite row? I'll cover that later.

All told, you have 129 inches. Wow that is a lot.

HTH

Thanks for all your advice and for taking the time to answer! I am feeling more hopeful and I just can't wait to get going.
Buehl - Sink cab - I'd love to have a smaller cab and just found a SS undermount at Galaxy Tools that will give me the 21"interior. The room is exactly 129", on that side anyway - 1912 home... I don't have a hood now - blech.
Johnliu - The 30" drawer stack is over stairs to basement. BTW, can I borrow Marcolo's gladiator to block my kitchen? Nevermind, it's the only way outside.
Remodelfla - I really like the idea of an 18" DW, but we are four and cook everyday, just not sure it would be enough space.
Davidrol - Wow, thanks for giving me the visual opportunity, really helped. It's so dang ugly right now - pink countertops, flowery tiles, pinkish washed cabs, pink and white cracked vinyl...

This has the potential to be a great space with lots of storage. * :)
On one side, you have full depth available. I'll guess that you are planning to have 24" deep cabinets and a 26" deep countertop. Please confirm yeah or nay. *YES
Opposite it is a row not as deep, but it can go full height to the ceiling. Please confirm. *YES
On one of the side walls, you have a 30" drawer stack. Looks like it is embedded (or recessed). Please confirm. Please explain this more. *THIS DRAWER STACK REPLACES A SHORT CLOSET THAT SITS OVER THE STAIRS TO THE CELLAR, THATS WHY I CAN'T PUT THE STOVE/FRIG INTO THAT ALCOVE, JOHNLIU, IT WOULD BE SLIGHTLY ELEVATED. WE ARE CUTTING IT DOWN TO GAIN LIGHT FROM WINDOWS IN MUDROOM.
For a few minutes, forget about the cabinets and look only at the counter. Imagine that later on you will slide cabinets of any size underneath. A sink can straddle two cabinets, easily, without complication. For another few minutes, imagine there is a wall, with daylight coming through it everywhere, and NOT through the existing window or any other new window dreamt of. Pretend the wall is just an opaque translucent partition with nothing on it. Starting from this imaginary situation, position the sink where you want it to be. Place the range too. This will give you the large expanse of counter you want. Placing the dishwasher against the wall makes sense.
There are 18" dishwashers and they are great. More convincing can be said later. *NO PROBLEM WITH 18" DW AESTHETICALLY, BUT WE ARE FOUR AND COOK DAILY
At the other end, between the range and the wall, plan for open shelves that will be cut to size as a last step, to fill whatever space is left over after you get the cabinets installed. Open shelves, but they can be covered with a piece of cutting board so you will still have that ideal "safety counter" next to the cooking surface, between the wall and the range. Doing this allows you to maximize the central counter area, which is your main goal described in your first post. ARE THESE OPEN SHELVES OVER OR UNDER THE COUNTER? I'M ASSUMING UNDER.

If you make the regular size row into an extra deep row (e.g. 26" deep drawers, full extension 650mm Blum Tandembox), you lose some of the embedded (side wall) drawers, and you gain a huge amount of storage space. LOVE THE LARGER COUNTER TOP, AND 30" STACK CAN BE ANYTHING, JUST TRYING TO GET MORE LIGHT AND UTILIZE THE SPACE.
HTH * VERY MUCH - THANKS!
This is a rough sketch of where the kitchen sits in the house.

The open shelves are under the counter. Their purpose is to avoid putting filler pieces anywhere. They are the filler, and they are functional too. They allow for installer error and measurement error because they get put in last. No wasted space at all. Not even 1/16th".

You could have larger volume on both sides of the kitchen.

If the diagram is accurate, you could reduce the light well over the bsmt stairs and move the doorway over a few inches. Both doorways. This is an extra job that may have not been in the cards but is worth considering. Doing this allows you to have more depth on the shallow side. It would help hide the fridge from view, too.

I think the shallow wall is more like a floor to ceiling setup, almost like an appliance garage with a roll top pulldown, or 2 or 3 of these.

I think you might want to keep the exterior wall light and airy. No cabinets. At least not during the fantasizing stage right now.

A 24" DW will work too.

Here is an idea: two 18" Miele DW, and you buy an extra cutlery rack so you always have one in each DW and a third one in a cutlery drawer. The racks are removable. After any DW wash, you pull out the now clean cutlery rack and slide it into the drawer (removing that rack first). Cutlery would have to be numerous. Or, this could work with four racks, and two cutlery drawers. These drawers are about 3" high so it's not much space to worry about. BTW, using one DW at a time means that usually the other one is "clean". People have been known to use a DW as a temporary holding pen for cutlery and dishes. Doing this means one must be sure of the drain plumbing (anti-backflow provisions) more than ever. Cross contamination does happen (rarely).

hth

Okay, I understand the 30'' alcove a little better. You can elevate a refrigerator a bit, maybe a foot or so. It is also not too expensive to rebuild a basement staircase, if that would help lower the floor in that alcove. Not meaning to beat a dead horse, but if there were any way to put the refrigerator in the alcove instead of a drawer stack, it would really open up both walls of your kitchen for use. I think, in terms of useful work space, it would almost double.

Ok, I MIGHT have jumped the gun a little bit on appliances last year right before Christmas. I might have been a little hysterical about holiday baking on a double hot plate and storing food in an almost defunct 24x24x60 fridge. So I might have purchased a frig that is WAY too big for my space... I thought I couldn't justify the price of a Leibherr so I bought the matching Cafe FD to our range. Great fridge, just too big, and I'm stuck with it. So... that won't fit in the alcove, and I really want the southern light. We just can't move the door to the mudroom at all unfortunately because I know it would solve a lot of problems!

if the diagram is accurate, you can recess the fridge into the wall. In the corner where the doorway is, cutting into the BR a little bit. Then you will have more storage and counter space available in the kitchen, in one continuous run from the corner fridge over to the DR wall. Right now you have drawn the fridge in the middle, cutting that wall into two different areas.

You might find someone to swap the fridge with. I guess yours is 36" FD and you want a 32" single door. Then you can implement johnliu's idea. You are still getting a lot of sun through the entrance (front door area) and even more from the new windows we are going to put into your kitchen wall.

hth

Continuing to beat the dead horse. Whack! Whack!

I'm sorry about this, if the realities of the house structure means this layout simply isn't possible then just ignore me.

It is just that I think there is the possibility of a kitchen that is far more functional than the current plan. If you're going to live with this kitchen for many years, the $600 cost of replacing the refrigerator (appx price for 30'' wide Frigidaire left-hinge top-freezer) or the $2,000 (?) cost of modifying the basement stairs (assuming a basic rough carpentry stair run, not a finacy finished stairwell) seems money well spent, in order to double the useful workspace and get well-defined, separate work zones.

The wash zone is to the left of the sink, where a full-size dishwasher lives. Dish storage can be across the aisle, if the lower and upper cabinets are deep enough. Dirty dishes go immediately to the wash zone, without even passing through the rest of the kitchen. The dishwasher door might block traffic, if so you could consider dish drawers which still stick out but are easy to slide in and out.

The prep zone is to the right of the sink, something like 80 inches of unbroken counter. Room for a trash pull-out, drawer storage for prep tools and supplies, and then some drawer storage for food staples. If the upper cabinets are used for food too, that lower-right corner functions as a sort of pantry. If the refrigerator sticks out, a sort of blind-corner cabinet arrangement may be needed. The refrigerator is adjacent to the prep zone, so that the prepping cook has everything in reach. Some people like to have the microwave in the prep zone.

The cook zone is across the aisle. One person can be cooking and two others washing and prepping, without crowding each other. Plenty of landing space on either side of the range.

The lower-left corner could be small appliance storage, home for a microwave or toaster oven, maybe a baking center since the counter can be decently deep.

I think the kitchen will also ''feel'' more spacious since you won't have a big refrigerator looming right in the center of it, cutting apart one counter and blocking the sightline.

You could sell the Cafe refrigerator you have on Craigslist or some such. No, you probably won't get back all that you paid for it, but it might be enough to cover the cost of a new refrigerator...if that's what you want...

I am concerned, though, about putting the range on the other wall...it will be right in the main path b/w the LR/DR door & the outside/sun porch door. How much traffic is there through the kitchen?

Open shelving...I'm not a fan of open shelves as it can become a cleaning issue (I hate cleaning!), especially base cabinets/below counter. Every time someone walks by, dust & dirt is stirred up and settles on anything nearby...including dishes, etc. in open shelves in base cabinets. Since they're so shallow, I would probably just put stationary shelves behind doors in those cabinets on the left wall (not fixed since you want to be able to adjust them). [I think someone suggested open shelves...]

Thank you! The horse, it ain't dead but it's wheezing :) Ok, here is where I am at with this plan. I want it to work, I see it should work, on paper it's great, is even similar to what the KD had- ie range on the other side, BUT for 6 years at my last old quirky house I cooked in the traffic lane to the back yard and I really got to dislike it, especially after having kids running through/around and over. So, I am trying to work around it this time. I see the frig was a bad idea, my impulsive panic purchase doesn't have to create a bad space though, maybe I could put in a 24" frig column there and a freezer drawer elsewhere ?? I measured the stairs and the only way of modifying them would be to bump out the back of the house and I have 70+ yr grapevines right there. The stairs are super steep and have less than a 3' landing at the top. And, the frig would be more than 8+ inches off the ground. :( Does anyone want to buy a Cafe CD FD???

Oops, simultaneous post. The house lot is along an alley and that compounded with a dusty arid climate makes for way more cleaning than I like, and I don't like much! I love the look of open shelves, but... I do like using them instead of fillers but closed in. Have a new puppy that sees open anything as the toy cache. You are correct - the range IS in a high traffic area and that concerns me too. You all bring wisdom and original thinking - thanks for your help!

Hmm. Poor Nessie. Where's the rifle?

Sounds like the refrigerator-in-alcove trick will be a game of inches, and if the inches aren't there, it won't work. Inches as in
- how many inches of headroom a carpenter can squeeze from the stairs - there are tricks like moving a section of joist to get more headroom, wider treads to compensate for steep stairs, etc.
- how tall you are - determines how much a refrigerator can be raised. The 30'' model I was looking at is 66'' tall, add 12'' and that is 78'', plenty of refrigerators are 80'' tall (for some reason, mostly high-end ones).
- how many inches depth the refrigerator needs to in the alcove - the shallower it sits in the alcove, the less impact on headroom. Counter-depth or simply pulling the refrigerator ''out'' a bit might be an option.

The separate refrigerator and freezer is an interesting idea, pairing a smaller refrigerator-only unit that can fit in the alcove with a freezer than could be in the mudroom just a few steps away.

Even if the inches work out, there's the range being in the ''line of fire'' - ah, I didn't understand the dimensions of the room and location of the doors. Now I can see there would be a tradeoff between traffic flow and counter/work space.

Unless you could recess the range into the wall and/or the bedroom hallway (kind of like davidro suggested for the refrigerator), I can't come up with a design that solves both traffic and workspace problems.

Sorry, I am at a dead end.

I really like johnliu's layout - especially recessing the fridge. Have you seen the new style fridges that are narrow but really tall? I keep seeing those on HGTV (Income Property). I think a recessed fridge will keep the fridge users out of your way and also give you a nice landing spot. Plus you can take advantage of the deeper counter area. But... I understand not wanting to be working in front of the walkway. But when I think about my kitchen work I spend more time working on the counter and at the sink than I do at the stove. But if you want the stove on the other side that could work too. I just don't think I'd have the fridge smack in the middle where you had it originally. It'll really break up the space and will be in the way when people are using it and others are trying to walk by.

If I was going to leave the fridge on that side I'd get a countertop depth unit. And I'd probably move it down a bit more, perhaps with a tall pantry unit between it and the doorway so I'd have a longer run of countertop on that side.

One thing I'd really be tempted to do is to take the wall between the dining and kitchen down to a half wall and put a pennisula there. I know you say you can't move walls but that would open up the space. You could even put your sink there and then have a longer run for the dishwasher and range wall.

I'd probably be tempted by the idea of putting wall ovens in the cutout and doing just a cooktop along the side - get some drawer space under the cooktop for pots and pans.

personally I think I'd want to put the range on the deeper side even if it is a bit in the walkway - it could recess enough to make that not much of an issue. And leave yourself a much longer work surface on the other side. Then put the fridge in the cutout. Then you don't have anything tall blocking the run on either side. I think it'll feel biger and be more usable that way. Just my 2 cents.

Looking forward to find out what you decide...

Fridge-freezers with the freezer on top still cost less than bottom freezer models.
Raising this appliance by 8" or a lot more makes sense then.
I raised mine by 18" for a couple years.

That was before I sent it to the recycling service and got two small new fridges when I remodeled my kitchen, smaller than yours. But you could keep the freezer on top idea if you recess your fridge into a raised niche in the wall.

Thanks again for the help. I have been thinking A LOT about what you all have said, but in the end, I don't want the range to be in traffic. We halted plans last fall that had it there because I wanted to live with the space for a while. The LR/DR face north and get some light, but after you lose the east sun in the morning the kitchen gets cavelike. I don't know if growing up in VT has me predisposed to trying to get as much light as possible, but something has. Even with 300+ days of sunshine! I do see now that it's a waste of vertical space to leave that wall to the mudroom open halfway, but the thought of that southern light coming in makes me want to a happy dance. Kind like I felt when Davidro1 conjured a mental picture of a translucent east wall where the sink is now. Uh oh, I am rambling, time for bed! One last image with a fridge only column.

I like it. You have a good amount of workspace b/w the sink & range and no DW in the way. Most of your work in the kitchen will be in that area and it will be out of the main traffic side of the kitchen.

Dish storage can be in an upper cabinet above the DW as well as upper cabinets b/w the window and range hood. I do recommend upper cabinets b/c you may be short on dish/glasses/mixing bowls/etc. storage. (You should have quite a bit of food storage in the shallow pantries across the aisle.)

With the refrigerator on the other side, the kids can get drinks out of it w/o getting in your way. You might consider some cups next to the refrigerator so someone getting a drink stays on that side of the kitchen. Will the refrigerator have water in the door? I recommend it to help keep outsiders on the refrigerator side of the kitchen and out from underfoot.

The 50" counter to the left of the refrigerator could be a Baking Center (I think John also suggested this). If you'd like, you could even put in lower counters to make rolling out dough easier...of course, the most comfortable height for you depends on your height & upper arm length. Yes, it is in the main traffic path, but if you don't bake a lot year-round it's probably OK there.