1875 stone foundation bulging, floor above sloping

18 years ago

Hi,

I'm the idiot first time buyer that looked at a house in the middle of winter in the snow! My low offer was accepted which should be a good thing!! The house is a little federal built in 1875 then remodeled at some point (1940's I think) into 2 apartments. Some of the work inside is not so bad, some things just odd like the 2 1943-47 120 gal H2O heaters (for 2 ladies-one upstairs and one down) that only heat up at night on the savings rate so water is tepid at best all day! Not to mention the sulfur/iron buildup that has me risking drying up the well, trying to flush them out! New H2O heaters are close to top of the list now!!!

Needless to say, there have been a few surprises! The breakers the listing agent swore were in there are fuses (but I didn't look until a blackout had me checking the box with flashlight in hand!), yet there is grounded wire run throughout...despite the 2 prong outlets! A bit of a roof leak but not in the main house and easily diverted until I can roof it for real. The unexpected stinky water reared it's ugly head on April Fools Day (I had been smelling the remains of treated water until I tried to clean and got to the real well water!!)

All the inspections came back with the A-ok. But when I have tried to speak to the foundation inspector, he's all excuses and very defensive. On the report he claims the stucco and loose stones can be removed and replaced. And states the problem is cosmetic. I have called a couple of times, once to correct my name, and another time to ask for a recommendation or names of contractors he knew in the area. Both times, he's sputtering excuses before I've stated the reason for calling...at this point, I just don't trust him no matter what he "inspected" or not.

The stone foundation has been coated numerous times with some kind of stucco to the point it is some 2-3 inches beyond and in some spots over the shingles. The latest of coatings (very new) has what looks to be fiberglass in it (I hope there's no asbestos stucco on the market now). Most is now chipping off. I'd just as soon chip the whole of it off and repair and re-point the stone...much prettier but can it be weather-proof?

The rooms above the faulty foundation are fairly straight to the halfway point then uniformly slope down like a slide. No cracks can be seen, but the walls and ceilings are definitely sheet rocked in that room. The wood floor is uniformly curved down some 2-3 inches over a span of about 4-5 feet. This slope aligns with an added enclosed porch on the front side that is sloping, too.

Mind you, the rear of the house has it's own slump but it is only on another added enclosed porch and attached room built on a bad slab that leads to the basement. The actual house seems fairly straight in the middle.

Do you think I'm looking at having to jack up the front to repair or is that another can of worms waiting to happen? The beam across the front looks straight and solid in the basement. Any ideas?

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Comments (4)

housekeeping
18 years ago
Welcome to Old House Living!

Regarding pre-purchase inspections: They can only report on what they see, so if they can't see it (covered up with stucco) they can't evaluate it. And if he's going to be a weasel, well, you're probably still stuck unless you go law over it.

Regarding bulge, you might need to jack up and fix-up the foundation wall, which sounds outrageous but isn't usually as traumatic, or expensive, as it sounds. (Though it's not dirt cheap, either.) The key is to find a mechanic who knows what he's doing vs. some one who just thinks he does. That can take some time.

Here's what I'd do right away: Take some measurements (bulge, walls, floor slope, etc.) so you can tell if this a dynamic thing, or an old, slow, decline. Also, inside on the walls, examine any cracks in the wall surface. Take a long straight edge and draw lines across the cracks and mark and date the farthest ends of the cracks. If the wall surfaces are starting to move the cracks will shift and the lines across them will begin to be offset. Never mind how unattractive it is, this will give you peace of mind while you work out a solution, or alert you some sudden and potentially catastrophic change. Photograph the walls so you can inventory the cracks and identify new ones.

Meanwhile, locate a structural engineer who has experience (and hopefully, affection) for old houses to help you sort out what the problem is. Engineers with no old-house experience will often be needlessly alarmed because they aren't used to the structural quirks (and strengths) of older, better-built buildings.

A way to try and find a compentent mechanic for the jacking, and/or the right structural engineer is to hunt up people who are active in historic preservation or local history. They may know where to find the good ones.

Meanwhile, make sure you've got insurance .....
(just kidding).

Don't be too discouraged, either. People in new houses have problems, too. At least our buildings have withstood a lot, already, and probably will be just fine years from now.

Do you know about the series of Preservation Briefs from the National Park Service? Excellent advice, courtesy of our tax dollars. I'll attach link below.

Molly~

Here is a link that might be useful: Series of Bulletins on many aspects of Old House Care
tuckertdog
Original Author
18 years ago
Thanks for the info, Molly.
Well, I'd buy that hidden problem for the bucks if it wasn't cracked and open across a good portion of the stone! Which is why I specifically ask for the foundation be inspected!! And the snow was all of an inch or so on the ground...the crack is across the middle, well above the snow line. No, I'm thinking he's IS just a weasel! I will see if I can't find an old house specialist, thanks to your link.
As far as the outside crack, it hadn't changed at all in a 4 month period. I have cracked a bit more off now, to see what was going on behind there.
Regardless, the footers do seem aligned in the front, and as mentioned, the joist or beam that runs atop the footers looks straight, but the parallelogram windows to the side is a dead give away that the straight front is evenly sinking! Even my 86 yr old mother could see that and she's no professional!!
The basement looks to be sound but I will check again for cracks...and see what's level. As I mentioned before, the room that should have the cracks is now sheet rocked as are a couple of ceilings. I suppose I can pull it down, but frankly, I have enough work here without making more. I don't know when it was 'rocked. By the perfectly smooth bend to the baseboard trim and hardwood floors in the sinking room, I'd say this has been going on for a while.
I would think if the floors and walls in the basement prove sound and straight, then the front footing and foundation have somehow failed and perhaps a hoist to the correct height and a bit of corrective fill and stregthening could help. Luckily, it seems only a couple of inches would do the trick. Of course, if they can only hoist 1/8" a day, that'll take a while! Once hoisted, and repaired, does one replace the jacks with support beams or leave them? Also, do they stablize the portion behind the slope that is straight? Don't want to hoist something out of line!
Has anyone jacked an old house, and will it potentially crack the beautiful hand blown windows? Plaster I can fix but I wouldn't want to lose my windows! Also how will it effect the 2nd floor and integrety of the roof???
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housekeeping
18 years ago
You take the windows out, of course, beforehand!

The jacking UP is slow, but it's going on whilst the problem is being corrected, once the weight is taken onto the jacks (the first day). You may just have a rotten corner post, which is not too bad to fix. For that you still need an experienced mechanic, though.

Once you have a diagnosis, you could begin the jacking ahead of time. You may even try the not-a-permanent-solution-but-you-wouldn't-believe-how-many-people-do-it trick of supporting the whole area on lally posts. This not a mdoern phenomenen. I have a "lally" post that is actually a 14 X 14 timber set on end upon a large rock slab in the cellar and supporting one of the cross girts in my 1840-ish post and beam house. From various clues I believe this was installed in the 60's, the *1860's* that is! The downward pressure on the top of the post is causing the beam (itself a 14 X 14 piece of oak) to deform and swell out slightly over the edge of the vertical post. I'm not planning on doing anything about it, though. I'm sure it will outlast me!

What's your roof and eave line look like? Down in the dumps parallel to the sinking wall?

Good luck.

Molly
tuckertdog
Original Author
18 years ago
Roof seems to do just what the floors ar doing. Upstairs has the same slope that the 1st floor has.

But the cross beams for the floor in the basement are doing the opposite...they seem to bend up to that point! Yikes! The floor down there does seem to be pretty level, though.

Up on the first floor, there is a dip down between the kitchen and livingroom and back up towards the front room and slide down at the end. Then there's the sideways variations! A rollercoaster!

But only the front has that real bounce and stick your heart in your throat scary feel to it.

But this lally idea might not be bad for a bit of peace of mind. Perhaps a few other spots could use a bit of support! There's not a single vertical support down there.

I should know from my diagonally torqued apartment in the 1896 Brooklyn row house I lived in for 25 yrs...don't ever bring a level into the house!!

Now if I could only find anyone here who does this work...so far it's all new construction and mobile home people. Or civic and commercial. Anyone know anyone in the NY Southern Tier that does this stuff???

Playing level in the basement and I found I gotta call the water treatment guy...he left me a leak! Now my professionals are making problems for me!!!

Thanks for the tips.

My next question will be "why can't I insulate between my floor and basement!?"

1875 stone foundation bulging, floor above sloping

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housekeeping

tuckertdog
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1875 stone foundation bulging, floor above sloping

Comments (4)

housekeeping

tuckertdogOriginal Author

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