I can't speak from soup-to-nuts experience of having remodeled a kitchen, because we're barely getting started. But we've spoken to a few GCs, including two that bill them selves as design/build, and I wish I'd started w/ the KD. It's hard to get a bid on the work when you don't know what the work is going to be. So far, I've asked them for bids on replacing everything in my kitchen in its current layout. They've given me their ideas for "improving" the layout -- and from those ideas, I can tell that these folks have never actually cooked a meal or tried to manage the morning rush hour of breakfast + packing lunches/snacks.

It's good that I've gotten a few ballpark estimates, but that's all they really are and now I'm just feeling the time pressure of having to figure out the design.

So unless you pick a design/build firm that actually features *kitchen* designers, I'm thinking it makes more sense to start w/ a KD or have your own design more or less firmly in mind so they can all bid on something.

As for the etiquette -- I think you should ask them at the initial meeting. They all seem to have a process worked out of how many meetings/estimates/designs they'll do before they want a commitment.

Now -- the pro's here can weigh in and correct me where I'm wrong. :-)

I agree with scootermom -- work with a KD or two to get your design down first.

Ditto, KD first. However, be SURE to interview your KD for the job! Don't be too nice/shy to ask for references and have a list of tough questions ready. Maybe even start a new thread asking for peoples suggestions re: what to ask a potential KD.

I started w/one "KD" and it was a big waste of time (most precious) and a few hundred dollars in the "design fee" that I paid her. Relatively an inexpensive lesson learned.

The designer I ended up with was pretty good, but there are still some issues I wish we'd clarified more at the design phase (he didn't center the panels on my SZ sxs fridge b/c he left room for the handles w/out consulting me and I hate it. Also, the "finished" panels for a very wide entryway look TERRIBLE - hard to describe why.) You really need to go over and understand every little tiny detail so you understand what you are buying! Also, be sure you work out a reasonable payment plan. Deposit, amount on delivery, another amount when fabrication ready, and be sure to hold back enough for the punch-list of finishing items at the end.

I'm sure others will chime in with more helpful suggestions.

Oh, and I wouldn't take the KD's recommendation for a GC. Maybe gather a list after speaking with her references. I would only take a GC recommendation from a homeowner who had used that person and would only consider hiring a GC after seeing at least 4 of his jobs in person.

For both KD and GC, change their standard contract to include things to protect you throughout the process!!! Pay minimal deposits and be sure to hold back enough $ from the GC to be able to finish the job with someone else in the event of a disaster!

OK, I hope I haven't scared you too badly, but be careful out there!

Ditto, ditto, ditto! DEFINITELY the KD first -- and I would recommend an independent. When I shopped the full service design/build kitchen places, they were so busy selling me cabinets they didn't listen to me. I walked out of one place and the second and third places gave me totally unimaginative, poorly thought out designs. They were designing to fit their cabinets, not the other way around. Bah!

The best thing I ever did was to hire an independent KD and get my kitchen designed without being pressured to buy cabinets.It took 5 or 6 months till we got the design down but the specs and plans were so specific that I could have shopped them around and gotten apples to apples estimates for the cabinets anywhere. I could then have decided to have the cabinet place do the work (if they provided those services) or not.

As it turns out, I bought custom cabinets from a place that sells cabinets but doesn't do the work. BTW - my designer told me that often, custom cabinets cost the same or LESS than semi-custom -- and she was right! The custom cabs I bought cost far less than Kraftmaid cabinets upgraded to what I wanted.

I asked around for contractor recommendations from people who had had kitchen work done, and I asked my cabinet place.
I decided to use his recommendation and I am (so far) delighted.

KD FIRST!

Oh, and many, if not most, KD's will only work for you if you buy the cabinet line they rep. SO, the first step probably is to research the various cabinet manufacturers within your budget and find one of their KD's in your area.

I went with Kountry Kraft and am mostly pleased with the results (most of my issues are b/c they are painted white beaded inset cabinets and the seams between the cabinet boxes don't disappear as much as I'd like.)

Another brand I considered was Kahle's in PA, and Royal Cabinets ($$$$).

Good luck!

KD first. The GC's cannot give you an accurate bid until they have more information...the kind of stuff the KD can complile for you. Until you have the design, you don't know what you're building.

And don't be afraid to interview at least 4 KD's. It's a pain, but you need to find the right person that can stay within your budget and still give you what you want. And most importantly, someone who will truly listen to what you are saying, and who is willing to come up with several solutions to every problem that arises.

Once you have your plans, including the materials list (yes, choose everything down to the last faucet and pull, including serial numbers and brand!), you can go to GC's and start the bidding process. You can always change along the way, downgrading or upgrading as your budget allows. But do NOT do what so many people do, including many GW'ebbers (sorry), and pick things as you go along. That's the recipe for a very expensive kitchen and many surprises along the way.

And you'll be more relaxed and confident when construction begins.

Remember...it's all in the planning, not the execution. Once you have your plans and materials list, you're almost home free. The better you plan, the smoother your demo/construction process will be (barring any unforeseen structural difficulties).

And go to at least 5 different GC's. If you have a KD, try to avoid the design/build firms.

For what it's worth, we went thru 5 KD's, ended up not using any of them and designed it ourselves. Then interviewed about 6 GC's, fired the first one we went with, went with another, fired that one, then GC'd the entire home renovation ourselves. It took 2 years of planning, 1 year of construction, and many hours in GW.

Oh, and one MORE thing. You might want to start the tremendous project of choosing your appliances. You new "favorite forum" is about to become the Appliances forum. I too started out loving Kitchens, but quickly spent a zillion hours pouring over the posts in appliances. I ended up with completely different appliances after my GW education, and that will directly impact your KD. It is much easier to begin a design with most of the appliances specs already known.

This is all great advice and very helpful!! Thank you all so much. I will definitely take all the advice on board.

Sounds like I'm not completely off-track. We have been looking for a KD first and haven't started looking for a GC yet. So far I have met with 5 KDs. (I'm not sure they would all qualify for that title, as some are more just cabinet sales reps really). It seems they all just sell one or two cabinet lines -- Kraftmaid, Diamond and Columbia. I haven't come across any that are completely independent. 4 of them have done an initial layout for us (of these only the one from HD charged us a $100 consult fee). The other one came to our house and floated some ideas, but would charge $200 to do a layout.

So ... now I'm trying to narrow down the field. Aside from being able to totally rule one of them out (completely hopeless!), I'm not sure yet which one we want to go with. I feel bad for stringing them all along, so just wanted to make sure that it's acceptable to take more of their time to figure out which will work out best for us. Sounds like we should've asked them more explicitly at the outset. We just kinda jumped in ...