Not really -- does she have any family, etc., that
knows about her wishes? Maybe the visiting nurses
are just concerned about her, thinking she is
totally alone, and they don't know who to contact,what to
do, etc......
if and when it is necessary?

Don't really know what the background information is.

In my opinion, it is entirely appropriate for them to talk to her about health care directives and DNR wishes...but anything beyond that is really none of their business.

IMHO, whoever is asking those type questions should be reported. An innocent phone call to the home health care office to ask why they need that personal information may help. Chances are she won't be seeing thos particular people in her home any longer. That's just unbelievable that they would get so into her personal belongings.

She's very elderly & under a lot of stress dealing with a terminal illness. It could very well be that she has misunderstood or misinterpreted the nature of their questions. I wouldn't think that medical *professionals* would be asking the specific questions to which you've alluded. A home health *aide* or someone who comes in to do chores might be asking these inappropriate/intrusive questions, if they are not well trained.

I would suggest that she call the director of the Home Health Agency to
discuss her concerns. If those concerns have merit, then the director should deal with it as a personnel issue. But it could be symptomatic that her mental faculties are slipping....

I would be careful of "feeding into" or reinforcing her complaints, unless you personally know the accuracy of her statements, (as in, were you there & heard the questions?). If you did then, yes, offer to help her deal with it appropriately.

I wouldn't be surprised if things are already "walking out" of the apartment.

It's absolutely none of their business.

(And every medical or legal form I've ever filled out asks for "next closest relative" and a contact number, so the administrative people at the visiting nurses group, the doctors and anybody else who has a true need to know already has that info.

BUT: Because it seems you have a general relationship with this woman, you might want to ask her if she wants you to have this contact info in case something happened to her and you became concerned that you didn't see her, before the visiting nurse or doctor came.)

Caregivers are there to focus 100% on the patient, not scope out the joint to see what could be in it for them. And for them to actually have the nerve to ask her about her personal possessions? WOW.

If you were a really close friend or relative, I'd even suggest encouraging her to put in a hidden camera. It's all a matter of trust -- and the few examples you gave are big red flags.

She should call Visiting Nurses and request a different person. All she has to do is say "I just don't feel comfortable with XXX."

(There was a neighbor caregiver for my Mom a number of years ago, and after she came in, a very important object went missing. She was the ONLY person there. Case closed, but the anger clearly lingers. And I wouldn't want to see anybody else put in this situation.)

There is the possibility that these are "memory checks." Is she giving the same answers each time, or do her answers vary, indicating short term memory loss, which could indicate other problems.

Hopefully she has some family or others who are helping with those decisions. They do need to be made.

Sue

Yes and no. Some may be doing it because of the new enforced privacy laws, some may be doing it because they are concerned to make sure no friend or neighbor might be finding out more than they should, some may be doing it to find out if she has money, but I agree, she should have some from the agencies and a reliable friend and/or relative to double check who is coming in, why, and what was generally discussed. Personally I am surprised that Doctors and nurses are coming every day to check up on her. There are also professionals in the Senior Aging Council that will check this out. Check with either AARP, or your local Senior Citizen Center to make sure she is receiving the protection she needs. Other than that, if she has relatives, just contact them for them to follow thru. At this point, especially if she has money, I would stay out of it.
Marie

The question about where specific items are going reminds me of the Hospice nurse who spread out her newspaper on my mother to read and told me she wanted me to list the house with her after my mother died. I reported the nurse, who turned out to be a temporary hire.

I vote none of their business. It's family business, not nursing business.

Three years ago I hired visiting nurses and part time caregivers to help with my father-in-law who has demetia. The only questions that were ever asked were regarding Health care directives, DNR and other health related issues. Those were asked by the director/owner of the health care agency the day we signed up. To my knowledge I have never heard any of the nurses or caregivers ask personal question regarding property, money, etc.. If I had they would have been immediately reported and removed from the house.

We have been very fortunate to have the same small group of people care for him and have become like family to us.

I don't know how close you are with your landlady, but she should know that those questions are inappropriate. I hope her family is on top of her health situation and not totally relying on the health care providers.

It seems to me that health questions, plus POA with regard to health, and DNR issues should be the only questions that are legitimate in the mouths of such professional care-givers.

Maybe she could ask each questioner to write out the question, as she doesn't hear too well. Then, following the person's departure, she could write that person's name along with the question, and the date and post it on the fridge door.

Then when that person or another one asks again, she could point to the question on the door, write that person's name again beside that question and that date and point out the answer that she gave earlier.

And keep a separate log, in case the questions on the door disappeared.

After a week or so of that ... possibly the supervisor might be enticed to pay a visit.

In any case - I suggest that she keep a log of the questions, who asked them, and the date, as well as she can recall, immediately after the person leaves, with details of later questions, by each person, as well.

If she's up to it: probably not, if her days have become numbered.

ole joyful

There should be a social worker/case manager for this particular situation, and that person ONLY should be asking these questions - a call to the head of the organization should be done, immediately, to inform him/her that these types of questions are reported, by the client, as being asked, by her caregivers. Follow the phone call with a written letter, of which a copy should be kept.

I was with Visiting Nurses for 5 years and we had to record and report, on paper, any procedure or conversation of any significance that we had with a client - this is NOT acceptable!

She needs someone there with her during these visits--a friend or family member. Not only for security reasons, but also because one person doesn't always hear or understand (or remember) all that's being said.

No, there should be NO questions for any reason about her stuff and what her plans are for it. However, unfortunately, many home health aids are women who have been pulled from the welfare roles and forced to take a few weeks training to be come a CNA. Most that we have dealt with have been okay, but there have been a few who were overly interested in where stuff was going, and even asked for things with in days of my mom and aunt dying. There have also been a very few things that turned up missing--but I can't say for sure whether someone stole them, they were legitimately lost, or maybe mom or aunt gave them away without telling me.

Given what you've described, I'd encourage the woman, or someone representing her, to sit down with her caseworker and discuss her concerns, and see if something cannot be done about these very inappropriate questions.

If it is proven that this indeed happened, these caregivers will be fired, I feel sure. By all means - someone, with her best interest in mind, should be there during care visits!

I'm not 100% sure if you are actually being given correct info.

First off, who exactly are asking these questions? Doctors are making house calls? If it isn't the same nurse each time, the nurses all are asking the same questions? There may be case workers involved that are going there at the request of the family, or there may me a nurse or two who is simply talking to a dying elderly person and maybe your friend is just rambling on about her items. I wouldn't necessarily jump to some negative conclusion these groups of health care people are out to get her stuff by continuously asking about it.

If you want to help, I would volunteer to be there when they are there and see how it goes. You may even address the concern with the nurses/doctors yourself if it seems to be a problem or none of their business. Obviously, she is talking to you about it, which makes me wonder if she is suspecting anything herself about it and, if so, is she answering the questions and why (is she worried or just you)?

There's too many unknown's here to formulate a real opinion/answer to your question. If there is a nurse or two or three who really want to rob her blind, they would probably already be doing so. "Continuously asking" her who she is selling her building to or who gets some vase or painting would serve no real purpose.

.

Are you the only person she has talked to Jas about this situation , does she have any living relatives or close friends you could talk to about this?
If I were you I would make a point of being there when they come or get something to record just what is going on.
That is such a sad story.

One of my parents neighbors gave me a call and that alerted me as to how rough things really were for them.
Yes, by all means call!
Kathy G in MI

Your landlady could be confused, but someone coming in could be like one of our former neighbors, whom my DH called "The Predator". She befriended and even did a little personal care for two other elderly neighbors. She wasn't exactly subtle, telling me what valuables each of these people owned. The last straw was when one lady died at home and Predator glowingly told me she'd been first in the door to 'claim' what she'd been 'promised'. ICK!

My first thought was they are picking out things they want when she is gone.

I believe I would make a call. But I don't know if I'd call the place where they are employed...I'd go over their heads if possible. They might all be involved in it.

Can you tell I'm not a very trusting person.

I've learned that the hard way.

Another cynic chiming in here, just in case. Its a sad thing, but one can't be too careful. These people are smooth as glass in dealing with the elderly. Anyone could pose as a doctor to come along with these alleged caregivers. And let's face it, how many doctors make daily housecalls?

There have been several cases in our area recently where caregivers have stolen 10s of thousands (one was over $500,000) from elderly people in their charge. I wouldn't hesitate to take all suggestions made here and put them to finding out what is really going on.

The visiting nurses we had for DH bypass recuperation were completely professional, from a large, well-known agency.

Thanks so much for all of your ideas.

The previous renter is very close to the Lady, and calls her every nite and morning to ask how she is doing. He also comes and visits her, and helps with the snow shovelling.

He and I have gotten to be friends, and he has expressed these concerns and messages. She has told me herself of the invasion of privacy, too many personal questions and too many visits. She also has told me that when they leave she is so tired because it stresses her out.

The mutual friend (former renter) told me a couple of times that she complained about the questions about her Will. When he asked if she had one, or if not, he would take her so she could make one, she got upset and hung up on him.

I will see if she would like me to be there for one or two visits. They may not talk like this in front of me, but it would be worth a try.

So she has no family? Who will get her stuff when she dies? Caretakers who come every day is unusual (at least here) - could they be hospice workers? They might just be trying to locate a next of kin - or they might be robbing her blind.
Mom was madder than a hornet when the health care workers came. She accused me of taking over her house when I moved a bed downstairs so someone could sleep there. Someone needs to step up and be there for this lady because soon she will be bed-fast and what then? Denial isn't going to save her.

The mutual friend (former renter) told me a couple of times that she complained about the questions about her Will. When he asked if she had one, or if not, he would take her so she could make one, she got upset and hung up on him.

Well, see, there ya go. This friend, whom you've painted as one with genuine well-intentioned interest in landlady, has also been the object of her "not liking anyone delving into her private affairs". When anyone mentions a will, etc. to a person who is dying, you're asking, in essence ... "are your affairs in order since you'll soon be passing on?" It is a very sensitive subject, not easily broached & she is no doubt in denial & not ready to accept her mortality. This puts lots more credence to my thoughts that SHE is misinterpreting/misunderstanding the medical staff who are visiting her.

Who knows whether his intentions are really honorable? Just sayin'... Personally, I would give the edge to the workers coming in who are working for an agency, which would be licensed & bonded. I doubt very much that a "doctor" is making house halls as often as she implies, or even at all if she is mobile & can be transported to the office. To many oldsters any *male* medical worker with a stethoscope is a "doctor".

Does she have any family? They are the ones who should be closely involved here. Maybe the workers are trying to get this information from her & haven't had success in ferreting it out of her.

Beeohio, he wasn't asking her to sit with her while she made it, just take her. She calls him when she wants something, they go out for Chinese food every couple of weeks, he takes her on errands, if he's able to.

I doubt very much that he has any ulterior motives.

I agree with Carla and with Beeohio on some things. Beeohio wasn't saying that the friend isn't necessarily untrustworthy, just that this lady *may* possibly be misinterpreting good intentions because the issue is sensitive, or because her cognitive functioning has deteriorated to that point. It is possible that something untoward is happening, but I would not assume this to be the case. I would think that the staff are more than likely being professional.

Another thing is that daily nursing care is not uncommon here. My next door neighbour with cancer had this service for almost a year, and I've known other people who have received that kind of care. My other neighbour and good friend works for a health care agency and coordinates nursing care. It is all done through CCAC. It's also not uncommon for doctors to do home visits here either, many of them do that for very ill patients- my doctor is one who does that. I know of people he visited a minimum of twice a week until they passed. One person told me that my doctor stopped by on his way home from somewhere just to see how his ill father was doing. His father was in very poor shape, and our mutual doctor stayed there for several hours until he passed. His mother was very comforted that the doctor was there with them for this. These are economically disadvantaged people, but that doesn't matter here. But I digress...

When my mother was dying of cancer, she had episodes of paranoia- she thought there were people in the closet taking things, etc. Her physician explained to me that it is not uncommon for that to happen, as the brain is so damaged at that point. A watchful eye is prudent, but the fact that she has hung up on this friend who you feel is well meaning, means that either the friend is not as well meaning as you think, or that she is not thinking straight; which is very possible. I would be very careful as to how I proceed, because while you don't want the woman to be taken advantage of, it would be terrible to cause problems for professionals who are only doing their job.

I meant to say that Jasdip and I are in the same Province, so the level of health care for her ill neighbour (frequency of visits, etc) makes sense to me.

I don't know if she is just being paranoid, misinterpreting their questions or they really are that obviously checking out what they can take when she's gone.

About asking personal questions, it may be just the VA but every time a new patient comes in we have to ask if someone's income is less than $500 per month, along with some other very personal questions. I always hate asking that and some other questions in a 4 bed ward. The other day a very nosy, too-talkative wife of someone elses' patient kept interrupting when I was asking those questions so I moved my cart closer to the patient and did my best to ignore her. Didn't help much.

Anyway, the "less than $500 a month income" question, if answered positively, sends an order to the social worker to come see the patient and get them help if they qualify. I don't get into it any further than that, but I'm a nurse and still required to ask it. So, not sure they are specifically asking more in-depth questions than that or they are very basic and she is taking it and adding to it. I've seen that a lot with my patients too, especially if they are taking pain killers or have mental health issues. I've had to walk in with other nurses to give pain meds because they've accused other nurses of not giving them. I've also given them and 5 minutes later the patient ask me for them again. Even though they know they aren't due and they watched me scan it out, draw it up walk over to them and inject it in their iv. They claim they didn't know that's what I was doing...even when I always tell them what medication I'm giving and with pain meds I tell them the dose because most people want to know.

Beeohio, he wasn't asking her to sit with her while she made it, just take her. She calls him when she wants something, they go out for Chinese food every couple of weeks, he takes her on errands, if he's able to.

I understand that, Jasdip. But my point was that she got upset with HIM & he is someone the *you* trust. You're basically saying that she's off the mark with her reaction to his offer. She *could* be just as off the mark with the questions the medical workers are asking. I wasn't in any way meaning to disparage his motivations. I don't know him. But *most* medical professionals ARE trustworthy, with good intentions & motivations. Are there some who are not? Of course! But several of the commenters here are *very* quick to think ill, be suspicious of these workers without any regard that to the reality that the landlady herself might be misunderstanding things. Kath gave good examples of how things might not be like they seem, or how they are reported by a sick person.

I had forgotten that you were in Canada, Jasdip and wasn't aware that dr's there do housecalls. That happens almost never in the USA.

Again,,,, does she have any family? Are they involved? If not, she may need a guardian appointed.