Yes, because all soil has bones in it. At some point, an animal died and lay on the soil while it's fragments broke down and became part of the soil. Although, I'm sure I could argue it the other way around.

Well....suppose you did like my grandfather used to do and used chicken manure? Even though that chicken ate grain....BUT the chickens occasionally ate a few bugs...and those are certainly in the same family as crabs and lobsters.....
And what about that ground shell and bone you give chickens to make their shell strong? If the chicken eats that and you use the manure to fertilize your tomatoes....are they not vegitarian?
Splitting hairs I think....sort of how many angels can sit on the head of a pin...or a bunch of old Jewish guys sitting around debating Talmudic principals!
I'm not a fussy! I'll eat your tomatoes!
Linda C

"...I'm sure I could argue it the other way around."

That's the problem. I could argue either side too.

"I'm not a fussy! I'll eat your tomatoes!"

You can bet I'll be eating them! They are mostly Old Brooks, an heirloom variety with a tangy taste, and they are loaded!

Jim

A touch of reality:

1. The bone meal takes a LONG time to actually break down into the soil to a point where it's nutrients are actually available to the plant. That length of time, given the feeding habits of decomposing bacteria and fungi, puts the nutrient-availability timeline into next season.

2. Organic matter, including bonemeal, is broken down (by the bacteria and fungi)into it's simplest elemental forms into the solution of the soil (the water) before it can be and is taken up by the roots of a plant (your tomato). When it is taken up, it is neither animal, vegetable nor mineral. It's elemental.

Joe

So, one of those calcium atoms from the bone meal which end up in my bones after I eat one of my tomatoes may, at one time, have been part of the bones of Isaac Newton, a clam shell or somebody's dog? Good example of recycling, eh?

I'm not sure how that relates to vegetarianism, but it's interesting.

Jim

Perfect recycling as it was planned from the beginning!

I'm sure I've probably got some Darwin Award winner's atoms... :-P

Deanna

I'm vegetarian, and I'd be glad to eat your tomatoes! However, I choose to not use animal parts to fertilize my own tomatoes or other plants, so no fish emulsion, no bone meal (if I needed to up the phophorus content, I'd use rock phosphate), no blood meal, but I do use manure, cottonseed meal and alfalfa meal. I imagine there are some very strict or extreme vegetarians that would refuse to eat the fruit of a plant that was grown using animal parts as fertilizer, but I'm not one of them. I guess the difference to me is that if I were to use the products, that would involve going out and buying the products, where as being offered a tomato that was grown by someone else that used animal parts seems different. Okay, now I think I'm wading into muddy waters. But it seems different anyway.

Sally

I am enjoying these replies. All are well done, whether funny or serious. It's good to have a reply from a thoughtful vegetarian. Even she sees a possible dilemma.

Jessy, where in heck did you find a picture of a carnivorous tomato plant? He likes his steak rare, judging from the ooze around the bottom of the pot.

Jim

I suppose that one's reasons for being a vegetarian might come into play as well. Someone practicing vegetarianism for religious reasons might have different scruples than someone who doesn't eat meat because they don't like it, don't want to be directly involved in killing anything or because they think it's healthier.

Practically speaking, one cannot completely avoid eating or drinking "meat" of some kind or another...if one takes "meat" to mean any life that isn't vegetal in nature. There are insects too tiny to see on many vegetables and it is impossible to avoid ingesting a variety of microorganisms. Particles of decomposed life forms are drawn into plants, and there is always the ppm of insects considered "acceptable" according to FDA regs in our foods...charming thought, that.

So I think Sally is right, it is different for her to knowingly purchase and use bone meal herself than for her to eat a tomato from someone else's garden who happened to use blood or bone meal. A vegetarian can only do their best, after all.

In my opinion if a vegetarian wished to avid all foods grown with animal products as fertilizer they would have to eat only food they grow. It does not say what fertilizer was used when you shop at the supermarket. Well I suppose if they only bought conventional produce they might be safe.

Rachelellen reminded me of something I read in Animal Vegetable Mineral, Vegetarians from India and moved to England began to develop b-12 and other deficiencies. Apparently the bugs and other animal matter not removed form the food they ate in India was an important part of their diet. The British agricultural system removed these items.

Another similar question I have, is a garden fertilized with compost that was produced using some conventionally farmed vegetables really organic?

-Robin

We have some deep thinkers on this forum. That "bunch of old Jewish guys sitting around debating Talmudic principals", the ones Linda C mentioned near the top of the thread, have nothing on us!

I'm relieved that my whacky thread has been this well received. Whew!

Now Robin, introducing organic gardening into this discussion opens a big "can of worms". While I attempt to garden responsibly and healthfully, I am far from being an organic purist. Organic growing often verges on religiosity, more so than vegetarianism in my experience. I take no responsibility for what you started and where it goes. LOL!

Interesting story about the vitamin B-12. Surprising.

Jim

Jimster: that is a stock image from the movie 'Little Shop of Horrors', a family favorite.

Annie: I hope you caught Robin's "Vegetarians from India and moved to England began to develop b-12 and other deficiencies. Apparently the bugs and other animal matter not removed form the food they ate in India was an important part of their diet" ROFLMAO!

Honestly, the whole "organic" thing is just taken too, too far sometimes. I worked at a plant nursery in Berkeley for a while, and we used to get people coming in all the time concerned about whether or not things were organic. Several times I had people asking me if our garden seeds were organic. It beats me how much pesticide (or whatever) they think one bean will spread to the pounds of green beans they'll gather from the plant over the growing season!!

I see your point, Rachelellen, and agree with you for the most part. I am a devoutly organic gardener and work at an organic nursery, but I'm also a realist, and understand that not everything is going to be 100% organic all the time. That being said, with the new laws on certifying things to be organic, people that are trying to get certified have to jump through all kinds of hoops, and it could be, but I don't know for sure, that they are required to plant certified organic seeds.

Sally

That's true. However, this was years ago, so I don't think that was the issue...I just think that to some of these people it was more of a fad than an actual educated choice.

Personally, I see no reason to douse food crops with chemicals & pesticides as a matter of course, whether they need them or not, but neither do I have a problem with judicious use of either chemicals or pesticides on my food products.

Our life expectancy goes up and up, and the quality of our aged life improves from year to year, and yet we find more things to concern us over our health.

We stress about what we eat, what we breath, what we wear, and what the technology and scientific advances responsible for our increased life expectancy and quality might be extracting from us in terms of price.

My great grandma looked like an old, worn woman when she was my age...and if I can be so bold, I will say that I'm still pretty healthy and attractive looking (though plumper than I'd like), and active to boot. She ate organic, because that's all there was. She made all her own foods from scratch, made all her family's clothes, and cleaned her house without the aid of all our convenient (and poisonous?) products and gadgets. There was no air pollution, no growth hormones in her meat, no "frankenfoods", no plastic containers, and none of any number of other things we've been told are dangerous to our health.

I guess she just worked herself into premature old age, doing all she had to do without benefit of our modern conveniences.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not making fun of people who make the commitment to garden/eat organically...I mean, why not? Since I would rather drink a nice glass of clean water than a glass of malathion, I guess I'd prefer to blast the aphids off the roses growing next to my tomatoes with water.

I'm just making fun of the people who mindlessly follow every health/well being fad that comes along.