Granite seam question

16 years ago

Hi,

I'm wondering about the seam in my granite. The width of the seam is on par with what I've seen posted on this forum, but it is a tiny bit higher in the center. So in the front and back of the seam, a penny slides smoothly across but in the center it hops up just a bit. My granite installers told me they would have the boss come and look at it to see if anything could be done, but so far he's just blown me off with "nothing's perfect".

When I finally get him to my house to see for himself, I want to have some idea of what, if anything, is possible.

Thanks,

Beth

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Comments (16)

azstoneconsulting
16 years ago
Beth-
What state do you live in? Some states (like AZ) have
specific Industry standards tha apply to ALL workmanship.

Maybe your in one that does....

let us know

kevin

Kevin M. Padden MIA SFA
Fabricator, Trainer & Consultant to the Natural Stone Insdustry
www.azschoolofrock.com
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mrs_tlc
16 years ago
Will someone explain the seam issue to me? What should I look for as I have no clue! I so wish I had found this site BEFORE we started our project!!
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Start with a black Sharpie which is water proof. Remember if you mark your counter and wait a few seconds, it will not come off so be careful. Take the marker in one hand and 0000 steel wool in the other. Look for an area that you can bridge black to black first. Make a light mark bridging the black. Immediately start erasing it with the steel wool. If you do it fast it will lighten the mark and scatter it. You will get the idea as you start. The longer you let it dry before using the SW the darker it will be, so start quickly until you get a feel. If you scrub it immediately you can take it all off, but wait 15 seconds and its too late. You will see that you can take the black marker from black to light gray with a little scrubbing. It only takes a few seconds. You will be able to blend by how hard and the direction of the scrub. After you do all you can with the black, try a dark blue one, same procedure. Maybe a light blue one. Remember the first time to start scrubbing immediately and you can remove it completely but wait 10 sec and you cant. After you get it like you want you can protect it by buying some fiberglass resin from HD $15, mix a small amount and with a small brush apply over the seam. Its similar to what they use to a resin coat that comes on most granites now. Post finished pictures. Don't be afraid and good luck.
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I appreciate everyone's feedback. Unfortunately I don't have the dimensions of the slab as that information was not provided to me. The slabs were selected a few months ago so it seems there has been ample time to have realized a second seam was needed based on the layout. I didn't select the fabricator - it is who my contractor uses. I obtained bids and interviewed several contractors. I had glowing recommendations from multiple people. The contractor raved about the fabricator and showed me several examples of their work that were very high quality. I started to feel less confident when I arrived for the mapping and felt rushed through the process and they could not provide an explanation as to why a second seam was necessary. I recognize that sometimes there are considerations that the average homeowner might not take into account, so I would have liked it explained to me with sufficient time to change to something different if necessary. If I hadn't insisted on attended the mapping, I would not have known of the second seam until installation. If the countertop was fabricated with one seam as originally planned, the largest piece would be 7'6", which doesn't seem unusually large to me, but there may be information that I don't have. Thanks again for the feedback. It's been a tough process and I spent alot of time planning and researching and am upset to think of being disappointed in one of the most visible parts of the kitchen. Thought I had done adequate due diligence and planning.
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My fabricator had a similar situation. He asked that the fridge surround not be fastened on the bottom and the fridge be left out of it until he installed the granite. That way they could push the fridge ''wall'' in a couple inches when they swung the granite down. He said this problem exists only if they are cutting for a tight fit on both sides. They prefer to put the granite in place and then lower it on the diagonal rather than lay it flat and push it in. Lowering it on the diagonal, the bottom edge rests in from the wall a bit, the top edge against the wall on the low side. As they lower the high side, that bottom edge protrudes very slightly beyond the finished width and can scrape a finished cabinet. If you have a total of a half inch or so clearance on the two edges that will be covered by backsplash tile, I think they could lower the granite without a problem. People who know granite will have a better (and clearer) comment than mine, I suspect.
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I am a fabricator. The grain match across the seam is poorly done. It is possible the pieces came from the same slab as many "builder grade" slabs have that much grain and color variation from one end to the other. That said, look at the piece to the left. If it was rotated 180 degrees would the other end match the sink piece better? If yes then it's definitely a fabricator error. If not it's still worth asking for the mismatched piece to be replaced. If it means a sale/no sale to the contractor he will almost certainly lean on the granite guy to fix it.
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schmaltzy
Original Author
16 years ago
Hi Kevin,
I'm in Washington State. I looked at some of the standards when I was researching the allowable seam width, but I didn't see anything regarding this dilemma. I'm just irritated with the boss installers arrogance and unwillingness to come and see for himself whether it's fixable or just a teeny bow in the stone that can't be repaired. BTW, they did a wonderful job matching the movement at the seam so I would happily live with it if it meant needing another piece of stone all together. The stone is seaweed green if that makes a difference.
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green-zeus
16 years ago
Well, that installer is wrong in my opinion. My seams are PERFECTLY flush with the granite. The guy that did it was very careful to work the epoxy until he got it the way he wanted it.

The devil,as they say, is in the details. Work like this has to be done with some degree of attention. Who wants a lump in their countertop? Removing the epoxy and redoing it should not be a big deal and I would insist upon it.
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vrjames
16 years ago
Green Zeus, your emphatic statement is what makes it difficult to be an expert in this industry.

There are tolerances that must be accepted in the fabrication and material handling. not all slabs are uniform thickness.

Lippage, which is what this is called is the fabricators responsibilty to work out. Then we run into different skill levels of the fabricator. It might be the best HE can do. Or it may be the best he can do with that particular material.

That being said, his short answer makes me nervous, but I am not there. When you say "it hops up just a bit". Is the lip hard to tell unless you touch it, or can you see it from across the room.

Blessings
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schmaltzy
Original Author
16 years ago
Hi vrjames,
It is impossible to tell from a distance and when you run your finger over the seam you can feel it just a bit. The best test was sliding a coin across the seam.
It slid smoothly front and back and hopped a little in the center. The installers said it was beyond their ability, but they'd tell their boss to give me a call. It's his lack of response that is making this a bigger issue than it needs to be. My neighbor used to help install granite for this company and he said they used to use the coin test several times during an install as they shimmed. I had him look at the seam and he thought it looked pretty good overall. He wasn't sure if they could fix the bump after the fact.
Thanks for the input, everyone.

Beth
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annzgw
16 years ago
We purchased our current home 5 yrs ago (newly built) and the kitchen has a good bit of granite. It has few seams but there is one in an often used area and when wiping it down I'm aware of it, but I've never seen anything that bothered me.
Anyway, after all this time, I just did a coin test and it's perfectly smooth on the front half but the coin actually catches on the back half. Personally, I wouldn't worry about what you have unless there's a visual defect.

It's very common to be critical of every detail during a remodel (I've been there!), but I think if you had purchased this home in a finished state, I doubt you would have ever noticed the seam.
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azstoneconsulting
16 years ago
Beth-
Some more questions and some thoughts....

QUESTIONS:

1. Have you paid in full yet? - If not - DO NOT pay
any balance of what's owed until YOU are happy with the finished work.

2. DID your Fabricator give you ANY documentation that
talked about "lippage" in the seams
-before- you signed any contract with him?

3. Did you go and look at some of his finished work
-before- you signed any contract with him?
Have you seen any other jobs that this guy has done?

4. Does he have a showroom that has "examples" of typical
and/or standard quality of workmanship?

THOUGHTS:

My Brother VR James asked you to define
"just a bit".... and I'm still trying to figure
out what your definition of the term actually is -

It would help if you could put the "degree of what
you feel" into the "context of scale" -
ie: is the high side of the seam that sticks up ("just a bit")
the thickness of a piece of paper, a business card or
a credit card? See where I'm going with that???

Second, again as VRJames pointed out, this may be a situation
of skill sets that YOUR Fabricator simply does not have... Not
an excuse for poor workmanship mind you, but it is what is -
that is why I asked about your pre-contract dealings with
your contractor.

As far as a solution to your seam issue - it can be remedied,
but this is a task best left for practiced professionals
that are trained in seam polishing. It sounds as though
(from your earlier post) that your current Fabricator
may not have the skill sets needed to perform the task.

Where are you in Washington state? Both VRJames and I may
know of some qualified contractors that we can refer you
to so you can discuss a potential solution to your problem.

Dont worry - I'm sure that there'll be a happy ending here.

kevin

Kevin M. Padden MIA SFA
Fabricator, Trainer & Consultant to the Natural Stone Insdustry
www.azschoolofrock.com
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schmaltzy
Original Author
16 years ago
Hi Kevin,
No, I still owe them half of the total bill. I thought that would encourage a response. So far, 4 weeks later, I'm wrong about that. I'm in Bellingham. I'd estimate the lippage to be 2 sheets of paper high. I don't see anything in the contract about acceptable lippage. I'm afraid I didn't know what to look for when I chose this company. I went with my boss' recommendation and the fact that they do a lot of work for my husband's company. Reading this forum is what got me asking the right questions.
The installers told me that they couldn't polish the seam, or it would be very obvious. That's why they thought their boss should look at it, as he's the expert.
Annz is correct in saying that if I had been buying this house instead of remodeling it, I would accept this seam. It's the terrible customer service that is making me such a pain.
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paul_ma
16 years ago
The situation you describe is odd. You say the two slabs are flush at the front and back, but not in the middle. There are only two ways that could happen:

1) one of the slabs is not uniformly thick - its thicker or thinner in the middle.

2) one of the slabs is bowed, either naturally, or because it is sagging for lack of support or raised because something is preventing it from laying flat.

Neither of those situations is very likely. The stones are ground flat, so getting one that is not uniformly thick, and especially one that is consistent at the edges but different in the middle, seems unlikely.

I also would be surprised at a slab bowing because they are so stiff. But maybe that is the most likely excuse. If so, it seems more likely that one is sagging than that one is raised. (For it to be raised in the middle it would have to be strongly pulled down at both ends, and there is typically nothing that would do that.)

Is it possible that one side of the seam is supported near the middle, while the other side is unsupported in the middle? (This might happen if the seam is just to one side of a cabinet edge.)

That still seems like an unlikely cause, but all causes seem unlikely.

In any case I would ask them to figure out what is wrong. Once it has been understood you have a chance of fixing it.
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vrjames
16 years ago
I presently have 200 slabs in my ware house maybe more,designated unsellable as they are bowed. 1/2 inch in the middle which exceeds tolerance. Tolerance is no more than 1/16. So she might have this. OR the cabinets have a slight high spot, right there in the middle. I can walk thru my inventory right now and find slabs 29mm on top and 31mm on the bottom. They are not milled flat. They are polished flat. The thickness is determined by the way the blades or wires are set on the gangsaw at the plant. And there IS variation in the thickness. That is why , as suppliers, and fabricators, there are tolerances. Lippage 2 sheets of paper thick, I will defer to Kevin, but I think that is tolerable. I have that much lippage in my own kitchen.

Should he remove the top and try again, YES.

Blessings

The bowing is caused by the wires or blades being slightly out of adjustment.
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azstoneconsulting
16 years ago
Very well put my Brother VR!!! You sir are dialed in!!

Paul Ma - VR is right on in his description, and it's
very understandable for you to raise some of the points you did in
your post. Acutally, some Granites actually BEND... OK,
not the whole block, BUT, many lighter stones that I have
worked with over the 2 1/2 decades that I've been doing
slab work, have actually "flexed" when I picked them off
of the saw table - Giallo Veneziano, St Cecillia, Binaco
Romano, Luna Hurl.. I meant PEARL - and others to name a few

When cut into thin enough sections - say - 3/4" thick by 2" wide
by 9 feet long - the whole strip will flex up to an inche or so
without breaking - I don't do this on a regular basis, but
I thought that you'd appreciate a little "behind the scenes"
info from a pro...

As far as VR's suggestion that the Fabricator responsible
for the lippage in the seam - pull the two pieces, and
re-install - I agree. One thing that I would also suggest that
the Fabricator use in his second attempt to get the seam right-
is a seam setting device - there are many on the market -
we use "Gorilla Grips" that not only pull the two pieces
tight, they also eliminate lippage.

Here's some pics of a project I shot for AZ School of Rock:

This was a Chinese Pre-Fabbed project that we installed using Gorilla Grips - Customer was OK with the perpindicular
vein direction at the seam (they did not want to chance a
45 degree mitered seam piece breaking during install - I can't
blame them either)

seam dry set before gluing:

some lippage noted prior to the GG's being set up:

This is the "business side" of the GG's the vacuum seals:

After Gluing (polyester) Gorilla Grips in place:

DIFFERENT APPLICATION:

Here's the other thing that can happen when a seam is "re-ground"
and surface polished - you can sometimes get a permanent "dishing" on the surface:

note the "change" in the continuity of the reflection of the
venetian blinds in the countertop? this is what happens when
too much material is removed in the surface polishing process...

Bottom line here - give them an honest chance to fix an
honest mistake.... Hopefully they'll use a seam leveling
device - that'll keep 'em honest too...HONESTLY!!! HA!

Hope that helps

kevin

Kevin M. Padden MIA SFA
Fabricator, Trainer & Consultant to the Natural Stone Insdustry
www.azschoolofrock.com

kevin
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schmaltzy
Original Author
16 years ago
Now THAT is a seam to be envied!
Thanks everyone, for your opinions. My next question is driven by the response I received when I asked them to fix it the first time. They sent the original installers back out to regrout the seam. When that was done, and I told the original installers it hadn't made any difference, they said the boss would call and speak with me. I'm still waiting for that call, but my final bill did arrive.
So, given that the man with the skills can't be bothered to check the work of his staff, I'm not sure I should trust him to pull up the countertops and redo the seam. I should add that the boss did come to my house to do the templating, and they had to completely redo the island, because he read the overall dimesion of the cooktop instead of the cut-out dimension. When we pointed out his error, he blamed us for not having the cooktop on site (which it was) but he redid the island anyway.
Would you trust someone who has not returned a telephone call in 4 weeks, or just have another company bid the fix and negotiate it off of the original installers balance?
I really appreciate the feedback. I don't want to be unreasonable, but since I've never had granite before I don't know what my expectations should be.
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schmaltzy
Original Author
16 years ago
Hi,
Just me again. It's now almost another 4 weeks and I haven't heard from my granite installer. Before I initiate contact yet again, does anyone have any sage advice about what to tell them. I still owe them 2K,
which I wrongly assumed would motivate them to come to my house to see the seam. I'd like to move on to obsessing about my backsplash but want this drama over first.

Beth
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bayareafrancy
16 years ago
Hi Beth,

I too am working through a "counter drama." I have concluded that my fabricator is probably not skilled enough to redo my job to my satisfaction. Therefore, I am attempting to get my deposit refunded (we paid about 40% down, and won't be paying any more) so I can turn the job over to another fabricator.

Given my fabricator's dreadful customer service, I no longer trust them. I think you are probably in the same boat. I wouldn't let them touch it. But I'm not sure of the best legal way for you to handle the final payment if they have indeed sent you a bill. Sounds like maybe you need to let them know you are filing a complaint with the state licensing board. And please post their company name on this website for others to see. As soon as I confirm that my fabricator is indeed blowing me off, I will be posting quite a bit about the whole job, and their company info.

Good luck!
Francy
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Bebudgirl_aol_com
12 years ago
Is it out of the question to expect a 67" by 109" size granite on a island to come without a seam?
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Granite seam question

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