mahlgold - DH and I have been the rounds over the countertop and depth for the hutch, and we've also considered having the hutch counter higher by a few inches. We have enough soapstone to extend all the way down to include the hutch (and I've saved many magazine photos that show "hutch-like" cabinetry that utilize the same countertop as the rest of the kitchen), but I've also considered just having the whole thing done in wood since the 6 inches in front of the upper part won't really be usable surface space. We're undecided about whether we want to bump it forward or back a bit. The sink base will bump out about 2 inches.

plllog - in the option with the wide door, yes, the upper would line up with the lower. They would each be 27" with the face frame.

I think what's bugging me about all the options is that the there is so much symmetry going on with the centered sink, twin dishwashers and side cabs, and then there's these two spaces on either end that aren't *quite* the same width. If they were dramatically different, I don't think it would bug me, but it sort of looks like we "tried, but couldn't." ;o)

Aesthetically, my favorite is the open shelves, but I also think that's the very least useful option for me. I like the idea of it being bare, too, but wonder if people will walk in and wonder why there's a cabinet missing!

How about this, as rhome suggested, with a fake drawer lift-up front? I kinda like this one...

scrappy - it's a drawing program in the old Appleworks suite. I think I'm probably the only person using Appleworks on a MacBook Pro running Snow Leopard! ;o) It's not for kitchens, but it was the only thing I knew how to use to draw up our ideas for our cabinet builder (who draws everything!) The first photo is from a program that Rhome uses, but I can't recall the name of it. There are several kitchen and home design programs on the market, but I found that most of them were either Windows-only, way too expensive, or had WAAAAAY to steep a learning curve for my brain! (Sketch-up comes to mind...)

We live in a very rural area with no kitchen designers, residential architects, etc., so our finished kitchen will truly be a miracle!

What about doing open shelves in the cabinet above the lift up or double door appliance section? Basically take the doors off the cabinet above the toaster section one. It might be unique enough, remove enough doors and mimic the shelves, or it could look like a horrible mistake. But it's a thought.

OK, I think I like this best. The cover of the March 2010 BH&G "Remodel" magazine inspired me with a similar tall, skinny open-shelving unit.

brickton - I posted "option 11" before I saw your response. Is it roughly what you were talking about?

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone!

Would you consider having just one thin drawer at the bottom (similar to the one in Worldmom's) and then a large door with a glass panel in a similar style and color as the hutch? I think that might give it the symetry you are looking for and you could still put your cookbooks in there.

worldmom I'm a big fan of having form fit function. Pray tell, what would you use the upper cabinet for? If you don't need any more display cabinets, then maybe you need it for baking supplies, spices, prep bowls?? My point being, if you could use it for items that would be better behind closed doors, then go with an option that includes wood doors. If you want it for dishes, glasses, serving pieces than maybe go with glass doors. If you want it for display only, then open shelves, etc. What's the function? I actually like all of the options. But I'm a sucker for stacked cabinets to the counter. You've probably seen mine already but I'll post them below and list the widths.

These are only 24" wide. They are not really installed yet and the hardware isn't installed. There will be a valance on top similar to cabinets in mamadadapaige's kitchen.

These are 30" wide.

Plllog is right, Option 9 was SUPPOSED to have open shelves for the whole top section all along and only be closed over the toaster. ;-)

My drafting software (used for the rendering at the top of this thread) is Chief Architect. The homeowner versions of it are available through Better Homes & Gardens.

I like 11 too! I think that's what Rhome said. But it has the failed symmetry thing going on. How about making it shorter than the hutch, and with only one shelf inside? Call it tall stuff storage, whether books, fancy oil bottles, or oversize cookbooks. The way you've drawn it with the frame also looks like if you decided you weren't happy with the openness, you could add a door later (or vice versa).

missmuffet - The reason for two "drawers" (they would be faux drawers/one lift up door) would be to hide my toaster. I drew it out anyway (see below), and I do like how it looks very much.

judydel - other than wanting somewhere to stash the toaster, I don't really know what I would use that space for. Honestly, I will have more than enough room for everything now. We have a large walk-in pantry, cabinetry to the ceilings (9' 3") on two walls, a large island, plenty of display space, and a large food storage room in the basement. I'm just baffled! No food will be stored in the main part of the kitchen, and all of our everyday dishes will be in the lowers. (I am determined not to have 4-year-olds climbing my drawers to reach cups in the upper cabinets!) I'm leaning toward either leaving it open or having glass doors because that helps keep some of my options open - displaying more stuff, storing cookbooks, etc. Maybe grown-up glasses? ;o)

In any case, thank you SO much for posting measurements and pictures of your kitchen. That helps me a bunch. The 24" doesn't look too narrow to me in your photo, so that shot is particularly helpful to me. I can't wait to see your finished product! The sneak peek is lovely. :o)

Agree with Plllog (we're doing that a lot lately!), that a little shorter on the right side unit would be better...Maybe about 6" if I'm gauging right.

OK, if I can get over the "missing" cabinet idea, I do like the look of just leaving it bare and putting up a grouping of prints. Whadya think?

I think 4 is probably too many, --it all depends on the size and pattern of what you'd end up choosing. But unless you're set on the toaster storage (which would be OK), I'd leave that area open and find something cool for it later. Could be a print, a calendar, an antique iron shelf...Any number of things could add some zing and visual weight to that side.

Whoops, I forgot that was where you were putting your toaster!

Now that I see it, I kinda like the open space best.

I think the scale of the grouping looks really off balance in a way that the first rendering with nothing at all did not. In fact, I felt the same way about the open shelves, though to a much smaller degree. I think a single, large print in a substantial frame, that has similar lines to the cabinet that isn't there, would look great. The bare wall balances the hutch because it has a similar volume, just on a different plane. Breaking up that volume, rather than filling it, will throw off the balance, and, in my opinion, make the space look uncomfotable. The mismatch in the previous iterations gave tension, which is exiting and interesting. This is more about vertigo. :)

This is a website with gorgeous prints of food

Here is a link that might be useful: Donna Ruhlman food photos

I like versions 10 and 11 the best. I do think you need something over there for balance though. The open shelves don't have enough weight and leaving it empty for pictures just looks too unbalanced. A hide-out for the toaster would be really useful.

just throwing this out there, no idea how it will look. did you ever try doing the hutch door style(forgot what it's called) on the cabinet on the right side?

If the glass in your hutch has that diamond shape pattern, AND you are a wine drinker, what about a wine cabinet/cubes with that same diamond pattern? The kind that are square but with the wood crossing through them and you stack the wine bottles? Not really sure if this is a good place in your kitchen for this, but it's a thought.

Look at the one on the right, imagine a couple of these stacked to look like a cabinet....

{{gwi:1617825}}

First, I thought that was what rhome was saying and liked the idea, figured I would slip it back into the conversation (and yes that one elevation... somewhere, was what I was talking about). That said, if you don't like them or think they don't add anything then I'd definitely vote in favor of the wine shelves as per beekeeperswife, in either a grid or X style. The X style might look weird if it's not the same size as the hutch mullions, but the grid might work and be really fun looking.

What software are you using? I am in need of buying a good software with 3D rendering. Thanks

Kaismon - I've been using Google Sketch-up (a free download) and I like it.

Worldmom - I like your #11.

Or what about a 10':
{{gwi:1617826}}From home renovations

I shortened your new cabinet, made it the same color as the hutch and added feet under the dishwasher.

I like Karen's ten prime, or the same with the open shelves.

I hate being late to the party!
What about Option #8 (from the original set) in white?

It looks like your dishwashers are right near that spot? So logically, that would be a great place for dishes. Now I'm assuming your good-looking stuff would go in that lovely hutch. But what about your ugly dishes? Plastic cups for the kids, mismatched coffee mugs, other odds & ends that you use but just can't make pretty?

a christmas tree

beekeeperswife and brickton - We don't drink, so a wine storage wouldn't be a need of ours. If I thought we might be moving sooner than later, I'd probably consider that option as attractive to a future buyer. I think we're here for the long haul, though! I appreciate the suggestion. :o)

mahlgold - I tried drawing out your idea, but I think it would have to have two upper doors (a single 24" glass door would be pretty hefty), and to me, it just seems like an odd shrunken version of the other hutch. But it gave me an idea that maybe instead of glass with mullions, I could incorporate the X design into the doors in another way, like with this wire mesh:

weidiii - you made me giggle :oD

sweeby - I'm just glad you came to the party! I like #8, too, and it reminds me of a cabinet that I love in mamadadapaige's kitchen (though I'm going from memory and could be completely off!)

All of my every day dish storage is going in the island just across from the dishwashers. We've had huge problems with little people climbing on top of the counters to reach upper cabinets, so nothing they'll need will be kept in uppers. In fact, I'm planning a drawer just for cups next to our bar sink on an adjacent wall.

Can you stand another one? What about this sort of thing, with wire in the door?

Different drawers, but still probably just a faux drawer door front to hide the toaster.

Oooh! I like it. I like the second one better. The wire in the larger door looks different than it does in the photo. It really helps balance the hutch without stealing its thunder.

With the wire you could put washing things in there if you want to hide them. (Since you're doing this to hide a toaster, I figure you're into hiding things.) Put things like a scrubby, a sponge, and whatever in a big bowl, stash the dish soap and dishwasher soap, Maybe even a couple of those pull out hangers for tea towels.

People would be totally envying your cabinet, instead of it being the what the heck do we need this for but hiding the toaster cabinet.

I like the wire doors also -- though honestly, your kitchen is so beautiful you may find another focal point distracts from your hutch. The plain white top doesn't.

Sweeby has a good point. I was focusing on the view out the windows.

Those last ones are OK...Not that I'm saying they're not good, just that there are a few ideas coming up here I could think were perfectly fine. I do like the wire diamonds to relate to the hutch's...but not sure they'll do the same in reality? I really prefer the 2 5-piece drawers to the 3 slabs. Too busy and for me, affects the proportion.

Yeah, we had to start disagreeing again or the world was going to have to tilt off its axis. I like the 3 slabs better because it's less busy than the 2 inset panelled ones, and affects the whole proportion. Rhome and I like different versions for the exact same reason! ;-)

I need to sleep on this, but I've come up with a few other ideas I wanted to run by you all. I'm sure you must be tiring of this thread, but I truly appreciate the input!

1. Create TWO hutches by narrowing the planned hutch to be the same size as the mystery unit on the right. I have a picture (p. 106 in BH&G's "Beautiful Kitchens," winter 2009 edition, if anyone wants to look it up) of a kitchen with an apron front sink with a dishwasher on either side, and then two tall, thin hutches on each end of the cabinet run. I tried to scan it without success, but I'll try again tomorrow.

2. Swap the hutch and cabinet. In this scenario, the hutch would be on the right, albeit in a narrower form, and we'd have regular uppers/lowers on the left of the sink.

3. Leave the design as is except butt the cabinetry up against the window casing. This would allow us to widen both hutch and cabinet by about six inches, but the trade-off is cutting into the window sill and upper moulding of the window trim. It would also create two very skinny cabinets below, but I could use those for towel rods like the ones plllog posted above. I could also keep a bunch of kids' cups in one of them.

Not sure if you want another opinion . . . but...

I like the size of the hutch as you have it currently sketched with furniture feet and in a different cabinet color, and its placement.

As for the space to the right, I like either leaving it bare, or some type of cabinet with ONE door incorporating the "x" detail/design that is in the hutch and drawers below it. (to me, 2 cabinet doors on the right look cramped and forced) Maybe the "perfect solution" will come to you today after a good night's sleep. :)

There's no doubt that the hutch will COMMAND attention and it will be the focal point of the kitchen. (I think it will be beautiful!!! - says the woman that loves hutches!) What you need on the right is something that will COMMAND interest. (one advantage to a grouping of photos, with frames that incorporate an "x" in the design, is you could really personalize that space with photos of family, that you could change out over time or for different seasons/holidays, or you could find local artists and display their artwork as elizpiz does)

or... How about option #8 but instead of a solid door on top, one that has two panes of glass with the "x" and the two faux drawers on the bottom to hide the toaster? But, if you go with option #8 with the cabinet matching the color of the hutch, I'd include the furniture feet on the bottom cabinet.

Sorry...The new ideas don't thrill me. I am a staunch supporter of giving door and window trim it's proper respect, and don't know why you'd give up the width of the hutch you have now. You were already fearing the right area is too narrow for a nice looking unit, so doing the hutch that size or doing both that size doesn't seem to make sense.

Rarely do I say this -- but (I'm on record now...) "You're over-thinking this..."

You designed this whole fabulous space to meet your needs and heart's desires -- hutch, farm sink, double dishwashers, island for dishes... The whole thing works beautifully. So don't muck it up now trying to achieve more symmetry (you've already got lovely balance), or fit in another hutch (you've already got a beautiful one) or do anything else except hide the darned toaster! ;-)

Build yourself something that hides the toaster well, looks nice on its own, and doesn't muck up anything else that has already been really well thought out.

I didn't read every post in detail, but if the small drawers in the bottom of the right-side mini-hutch are really just fakes (a lift-up door that looks like drawers) you might get the best functionality.

Thank you to those of you who are hanging in there with me! I probably am overthinking this, but I do that. Often. ;o) One thing that Rhome and others have taught me, though, is to avoid making rash decisions, especially in the 11th hour. So I won't do that, but if you can stand it, I just wanted to throw out a few other points that I hope clarify my vision for the kitchen and see if they change anyone's thoughts. :o)

First, regarding the toaster, I don't really care all that much if it's visible. I just thought that if there is some attractive way to incorporate toaster storage into the "thing" on the right, I would like to do it. I certainly don't want to get locked into designing something around a toaster. ;o) I really don't make toast all that often, so it could even sit in the pantry.

Second, one thing that has bugged me about the planned hutch is how big it is. I put it there because it seemed the only logical place to do it, but I really don't need that much "fancy" storage in the kitchen because there will be a built-in hutch in the dining room, too. In addition to that hutch, I have the glass-front top uppers in the kitchen, a built-in plate rack in the wall next to the pantry door, and I can display things on the shelf on my hood enclosure. I don't even own that many things to display, LOL!

Third, I feel like I'm getting a little heavy on the symmetry and focal points. My cooktop and oven wall are very symmetrical with a big mantle-style hood and marble slab backsplash. The island is centered on this section of cabinetry with large-ish pendants. There will be big columns separating the kitchen from the dining room, and the fridge and freezer are separated by a very symmetrical group of cabinets. I wonder if having one more attention-commanding thing right in view will be overkill? Or will it be a foil to all the other symmetry going on in the room?

Last, from a functional standpoint, I keep looking at that space where the pantry is currently planned and thinking how nice it would be to have it be additional everyday dish storage, at least on the bottom. And, I actually really LOVE tall, skinny hutches - I'm drawn to them every time I see one in a magazine. They remind me a little of jewelry boxes. So as I thought about it last night, I started thinking how it might be nice to have a less-used, skinny hutch tucked into the right corner, and more functional space on the left. In my mind, the hutch would be sort of a little treasure, to be discovered, rather than just right out there in plain view.

Here are a few narrow hutches, or hutch-like pieces to better show what I'm thinking of there. I wouldn't necessarily copy the style of some of these, but I like that they're all tall and thin.

This one of mamadadapaige's has long been a favorite of mine, and IIRC, she told me it is 30" wide. I can go to 30" without touching the window casing, but no further.

I think both of these are very sweet. Judging from the floorplan in the mag, the one on the left is probably 30", and the one on the right is about 20"

This one is obviously a bit wider, but scale-wise, it's still tall and thin.

A couple more...

OK, so here's what I threw together to help me visualize this. It's far from perfect and I'm not tied to the particular grouping of cabinets on the left; I just wanted to fill the space with something. Off the top of my head, I can see it might be good to nix the top row of uppers.

After all of that, I will say that if I stick with the original plan, the one that's speaking to me most is the single door with the nickel "X" wire in the door, and drawers (ah, but how many?) underneath. It could be my little jewelry box, too. :o)

"the one that's speaking to me most is the single door with the nickel "X" wire in the door, and drawers (ah, but how many?) underneath."

That one gets my vote -- Two drawers underneath because if they're too shallow, they're practically useless.

And please don't feel stung by my 'over-thinking' concern -- I'm a HUGE over-thinker myself, so I know it well ;-)

Oh no, sweeby - you totally called it like it is! I am an over-thinker. I'm not feeling stung, just appropriately labeled. ;o) Thanks for your vote and input!

I like the hutch where it is originally and nothing on the right hand side. Hiding the toaster is overrated. Buy a pretty retro chrome toaster and don't force yourself into design thought overload by trying to hide it. Functional items should also be pretty, and if you're going to use it, don't hide it! Then find a really pretty print or other object that calls to you to place in the open space. Don't worry about what is going there right now. Something will find you.

This latest, new plan isn't bad at all, but I think the old hutch is prettier. I agree with Sweeby on the overthinking thing, specifically about the part where you're wondering about foci and symmetry. Let's leave the analytic geometry in the schoolroom. ;) What you're saying about things to focus on is that your kitchen is going to be so stinkin' gorgeous that everywhere someone looks will be a beautiful prospect? Try opening a thread on that problem and see if you get any sympathy. (Sorry, couldn't help teasing... I do know what you mean, but in a space where people really do face in all kinds of different directions it's a non-issue.) As to the symmetry, the enforced assymetry of the large, different color hutch and the narrow white toasterish thing helps to offset the enforced symmetry you have elsewhere and make the space more organic and less mathematical. (Well, organic is really mathematical too, Fibonacci style, but I'm not about to start doing numerology on your hutches...)

Re how much stuff you have: There's one of those corollaries to Murphy's Law that says, "The amount of stuff to be stored automatically expands to fill the space available in which to store it." Or else things get spaced out farther. My friends are always amazed at how much more I can fit neatly onto their shelves than they. Sometimes you have space and make beautiful arrangements. Sometimes you just get it all put away. ;)

Re the overhugeness of the hutch. Toddlers. Toddlers inevitably become taller. They sometimes become very tall indeed. Perhaps when they're all at least moderately tall, like my mother did when we grew, you'll get "good" kitchen dishes. That you want to put in the hutch. Or you'll put the old, yucky ones in the hutch for your tall not-toddlers and their taller friends. Drawer storage is great for some people for dishes. For me it's a bit low, and I'm not even all that tall! My dishes are going up. So while you might not imagine it now, think about the ravenous hordes that will be blowing through your house in another ten years.

When they've all left home, and you don't want to reach up for any daily use stuff, think about all the hand print dishes, my favorite grandma mugs, and lumpy first tries on a potting wheel that your kids and grandkids will bestow upon you, and which you'll want to see, but not necessarily in your front room, and that will make you happy but might not make you want to use them.

Yep. If you really want the skinny hutch because of your love of skinny hutches, go for it. But I think your kitchen likes the big contrasting hutch.

The other thing I see happening here is that I believe you might be misjudging the width of the 'narrow' hutches you showed in those last photos. If you notice the height of the counter in the photo with the hutches you judged to be 20" and 30", I think the smaller one is at least 30". But I know Mamadada's is 30", so at least that is one to help you.

I'm in the camp with Sweeby and with Plllog in believing the bigger hutch will not be too big, will be a wonderful heavier piece the kitchen kind of needs, and I don't think that just because it has glass doors that its contents need to be showpieces. The diamond framing will kind of mask things, I think, similar to textured glass. --But if you'll truly love the matching narrow hutches, go ahead with them. I think, though, that having just one on the right looks squished in there...and I'm afraid that will still be the case, maybe even more-so in comparison, if you have 2.

If you go with the big hutch and the toaster enclosure, I second Sweeby's vote for 2 drawers, which outvotes Plllog's one vote for 3. ;-D But OK, actually, Sweeby is basing her suggestion on the fact that they'd be drawers, and not fake drawer fronts to hide the toaster...

To be REALLY wishy-washy and take everyone's side, I see a lot of merit in LWO's suggestion to get an attractive toaster and leave it out somewhere. That's what I decided to do with our toaster oven after deciding any solutions to cover it would be more trouble than they were worth.

Hey!! Anyone remember toaster cozies??

[Grinning, ducking and running...]

Actually, I could kind of see the right nice one in Worldmom's kitchen...And David T Smith makes some wood ones!

Here is a link that might be useful: David T Smith toaster hide-away

I don't think it counts unless it's two or more calico prints with eyelet, piping and a flower on top.

My mom had one that was a rooster made out of dish towels or something. I vaguely remember the red crocheted comb on its head. ;o) And I think my grandmother had one that was a doll's head and upper body with a big poofy skirt. Niiiiiice.

Heirlooms? My mother made all kinds of great things out of calico: potholders and pot pads, casserole carriers, dresser boxes, etc. But our toaster just sat with the coffee pot, on a wood tray on the counter by the table.