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What appliances are you planning? Range or cooktop and oven(s)? What size fridge? Do you like islands or peninsula? Do you have children? What ages?

thank you soooooooo much!

I need a refrig.--the larger the better, but counter depth might be the only option.

I would like a double doored oven--I don't need 2 seperate full sized ones though. It can either be combined with range or seperate cooktop. Whatever works!

Not crazy about islands or peninsulas, but would be willing to have a small one if no other option.

I have 4 small children (8, 7, 4, 1) -- with hopefully more to come! (usually with their games and toys on the floor while I cook which is why I'm not crazy about the island). We homeschool so we are home a lot....I like the open look in a kitchen.

Oh, another thing...we live on a farm, so the walkway between the sliding door and living room needs to stay open...many time we are carrying large objects and firewood and stuff...

Thank you. The range is in the same place as now...that would make install easy!

Are there any other options for the refrigerator? I don't know if I want to stare at a big appliance as soon as we walk in the door from the living room which is the natural entry (the sliding door goes to a deck.

I didn't notice the previous post that explained more about your situation. We homeschool, too, and have 8, so understand your hope for more! I envy the farm.

I can kind of understand what you mean about the island, but it gives you so much more work area, and more work stations, which will be helpful as your little ones get bigger. It is great when there is a group cookie roll out project, a messy science experiment, etc. when everyone wants to gather around one spot. I also looked back at your previous posts and saw an inspiration kitchen with island?

The range wall in my plan has room for a larger range (with dbl ovens) or separate rangetop and ovens. With multiple workers, and especially kids who love to bake, I find it nice to have the ovens separate from the cooktop.

I didn't really like that fridge location either, and would much rather place it beside the pantry. Can you do with a narrower doorway between the kitchen and living room? Maybe 5'9" instead of 8 1/2'?

I drew this up before I saw rhome's latest post. BUt... I'll post it anyway.

WOW! 8 I am so jealous! ;) Nice to meet another homeschooler!

I had an island in our kitchen when we first moved here. I am not sure if it was too large or what, but we were constantly tripping over each other and bumping into it. We took it downstairs to the homeschool room. :) We do have a large farm table for big projects.

I wonder if a peninsula would be better.

That inspiration kitchen is great (although much bigger than mine!)

So, what kind of amazing hutch would you recommend?!

I'd like to make the doorway smaller, but it is a supporting wall and we already took some away in another location, so my husband thinks it should stay.

If I would keep the refrigerator in the original location (next to the return duct on the same wall as the stove), what are all the cons? I'd lose any countertop space there, but I could have it to the left of the sink? I guess I have never had an efficient kitchen to really know how to cook in the zones....I usually haul everything to the kitchen table. Is there more advantage to have a long counter to the left of the sink or to the right of the stove (in that corner)?

Thanks for taking the time to talk this through with me. My eyes were glazing over trying to be creative. We were originally going to have already ordered the cabinets, but my hubby's job is going through tough times. It is working out to be a blessing, because I am majorly reconsidering our original plans. I decided I definitely need a bigger pantry with these growing children!

It is great to have everyone's views.

One question....Is the bigger pantry near the sliding door a tall one?

You could make the pantry anything you want twinkle! If you wanted a larger then 36" frig you could easily do 42". I'm not sure if you can go closer to the end of the wall... you need room for the framing; but you could make the 18" pantry smaller. I just thought it would be nice to have a small pantry for the kids. They could get their own snacks as they get older. I didn't take a close enough look at your needs/wants and now see you'd like a separate oven and cooktop. I love that sort of setup. It would be nice to have your MW to the right of the cooktop/range; again, child friendly. I don't know your electrical considerations but what if you were to put an oven in the island, facing the cooktop? I'm not sure if you prefer an oven stack or wall ovens installed under the counter. Just throwing thoughts out there. BTW... rhome is brilliant at this. She babied me all the way through a myriad of layouts till I came up with one for my odd space. Don't give up or get to frustrated. I promise... you WILL get there!

The downsides of having the frig next to the duct on the stove wall: If you don't have a spacer cabinet between it and the duct, and you want any cabinetry on the adjacent wall (where I have the pantry), you can only open the fridge door 90 degrees, at most, which isn't enough, in most models, to pull out the drawers past the door shelves.

If this plan (my 2nd one) were for my kitchen, I'd use the stretch of counter to the right of the range for baking. The area to the left of the sink isn't that helpful as workspace.

The island in my last plan also serves as landing space for the fridge, since there isn't any next to it...Also, if you have a side by side or French door fridge, the best way to orient landing space is across the aisle because of the doors blocking area to the sides.

There are so many beautiful hutches posted here so often, and with that much space you could have almost any design you'd like. I thought with that and those cabinets on the ends of the stove wall, which could be down to the counters, you could have amazing storage and a really pretty kitchen for your farmhouse.

A supporting wall shouldn't suffer from having a doorway made smaller...right? I can understand wanting to keep it as open as possible, but having it at 6 ft (easy to make it that with an adjustment to the pantry) is still a nice, wide doorway, and to get your fridge and pantry there, I'd sure make that small compromise. But it's not my house!

Zones are amazing. You are getting a new kitchen and it is a perfect time to get one that works well for you...With no more need to drag things to the table, which will be in use for other things by the kids, most likely. Your kids are very young and things will change. Zones make it possible for many to work together without being on top of each other. That was my top priority when I designed our kitchen. Look at that 2nd plan I did and see how one could be doing cleanup or clearing the dishwasher & setting the table, while one (you?) preps and cooks, while another bakes, and probably while another makes salad! It may be hard to imagine now that they're at your feet with their toys, but all too soon they will be able to do these things...And they will be wanting to (and you should want them, too) if there's room for them. You don't want to limit the possibilities of that now.

--Stepping down off the soapbox now. ;-)

rhome...you brought up some really great points...yes, I want my kids to work with me (the older ones already do--they are great helpers!)

I'm going to mull over that plan and see how I can make it work. Any other ideas are great! Send them my way!

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to shove this one plan down your throat, because there may be other ways to arrange things that will work for you. I just wanted to explain the advantages, as I could see them working in our house. I'm just a tad passionate about big families working together in the kitchen! :-)

Also wanted to point out, since I forgot to previously, that with the dimensions of the duct chase, it easily allows you to have deep counters on the stove wall, which are a nice advantage for prep, baking, loading several plates, etc.

Oh, no problem...you are great! My hubby and I both came from bigg-ish families and we are of the same mindset of all working together....It is just life for my kids (We work together and play together! LOL) You should see us all assembling pizzas or chicken enchiladas. Even the 4 year old sprinkles the cheese! (and the 1 year old eats it off as quick as we are putting it on. hee hee)

If you can think of any other arrangements, just send them along so we can weigh the pros and cons of each.

You've been so helpful. I really appreciate it!

Pizza night! :-D We don't always do individual ones, but they love it when we do. 2 of the kids were away from home that night.

That is GREAT! What a nice family you have there. :)

I'm liking the (smaller) island idea...I have a small table there now so I can get a feel for it. :) I think my old one was way too big and gave me a bad experience.

Off to go to bed now...I'll think more on this tomorrow.

thanks again for all your help!

another idea I had considered was a corner pantry that would hide the return duct, but I am not sure if that would give us enough usable storage or if the refrigerator would stick out too much.

Wouldn't a corner pantry be pretty much full of the duct? I'm not a big fan of those corner units (just a personal preference thing) and think you could get more efficiently used space out of something like the one above. But if you have an idea of how to get storage and the duct in one, and like that style, it'd be worth seeing to compare.

I was checking back today, hoping you would've gotten ideas from more people! Remodelfla and I are good... ;-)...but I was hoping for input from more brains and fresh eyes.

Yeah, it would be mainly duct, but it would solve the whole refrigerator bumping into it dilema! It looks the best IMO, but doesn't have my wide open pantry of my dreams. It has about 22 inches on one side of the duct and 16" on the other. Plus room in front of the shelves for brooms, aprons, mop, etc. I am really trying to think of a way to get that pantry on that 60 inch wall though! I told my hubby we should just get rid of our refrigerator! LOL

We can't really close up the 60 inch wall much either--maybe 6 inches or so. It would completely mess up the line of traffic from the front door to the sliding back door--which we use ALL the time.

I'll try to scan in the drawing with the corner pantry. I'm not good with that sort of thing, so give me a little while.

Here is a link that might be useful: Corner pantry

I am not able to post a drawing but let me try and explain my idea. In the corner near the duct (wall A) build in a pantry. It would be the entire length of the wall- 60"plus 29"for a total length of 89". I would make it 30" deep. Build it out of wood and sheet rock, with a sliding pocket door that slides toward wall B. Then you could have shelves on three sides making a U inside the pantry. I'm assuming of course that you can build in front of or hang shelves on the duct.
You then have a solid wall extending out from wall B to the opening of the pocket door-about 44". (Assuming the door is 30" in the middle of the 60" space)
The refrigerator could then go next to the pantry on wall B. Depth would not be a problem since it is up against the wall.You'd have 38" in width so you can space it 2" away from the pantry wall so the doors open totally. Continuing along wall B would be an 18" cabinet then a 36" range and 12" to the corner.
On wall c you'd have a sink. To the left of the sink you have a dishwasher. Next to it I would consider an under counter oven,as a secondary oven. I would use that area as a baking center and put in (probably at the end of the run nearest the sliding doors) a cabinet that extends all the way to the counter for your mixer- an appliance garage but with a door that opens outward or slides up and out of the way. If you bake alot you need your mixer at counter height but don't want it visible from the front door.I would make the last cabinet- to the left of the oven to look like a hutch piece with glass doors above and drawers below. It would be a perfect place to store dishes and silverware. SOmeone helping to set the table doesn't have to enter the work zone and you could stand in front of the oven with the cabinet on your left and the dishwasher on your right to unload it.
Finally I agree that an island is essential. You have very little space between the refrigerator and stove and the stove and sink. You need the island for prep space and to dump stuff coming in and out of the pantry and refrigerator. Also if the island is long enough it would block the view of the second oven from the living room.
I would also seriously consider putting a prep sink in the island- at the end closest to the table. Two sourses of water are essential in any kitchen with multiple cooks.
Finlly I'd consider tucking a microwave in the side of the island (near the pantry at the refrigerator end). The kids could get into the refrigerator and pantry and heat up snacks without invading your main cooking zone.
I am sorry that I have been so long winded- but a picture really could have saved at least a hundred words.

I perhaps don't understand or my math is off...I plotted it out, but am 6 inches off somewhere. We hadn't thought of that arrangement though! Good to come up with new ideas.

I think blueberry was thinking of something like this.

Thankyou Laxsupermom!! That is my basic idea except instead of a 3" spacer next to the refrigerator I would utilize that space for a sliding pocket door. The door opening could be set in slightly from the outer corner (where your red line is) so that the shelves could be U shaped,8" on the right, 10" deep along the back side, 15" deep to the left for bulky stuff. With the sliding door it doesn't get in the way and can be left open when you're having cooking marathons and then closed when company comes.
I built a pantry like this when we redid our Kitchen the first time 25 years ago because we too had a duct chase to design around. Although I fancied it up when we redid the kitchen last year (lots of glass canisters because it faces the entrance to the kitchen and the door rarely gets closed) I didn't change the basic function. I did add moldings to the edges of the shelves so there is a slight lip in front- I found I could then use the shelf right up to the edge without fear of things slipping off.
Building a pantry is much less expensive then buying cabinets to try and store all of your food stuffs. I also find it easy to see everything with relatively narrow shelves.
I wish I could post some pictures. I might just have to break down and ask DH"S assistance!!!

Don't forget you can just build the duct chase out to be 29" x 29"... this would take 7" out of the 136" measurement, but then, you can butt the two runs right into it. You could then put as big of a fridge as you can on the 60" run, with full depth pantries on one side, or both sides. I think I might do a ~15" pantry on the end, with the door facing out into the living room opening - this would be a great place for cereal boxes, grains, and small appliances. With the fridge on this wall, you can do your glass doors to the left of the sink easily.

I like the refrigerator over by the sliding door - that way if someone needs a drink, they aren't going into your cooking area. If you do a counterdepth model, with matching panels on the front, I don't think it will dominate the view as you come in the room. Plus, it's a kitchen - people know there are appliances ;)
Then, your hutch can go on the 60" wall - that would be a ton of storage.

thank you so much! I can picture it now.

Blueberry, I'd LOVE to see pictures of your pantry like this, so I can visualize it better. PLEEEEEEAAAASE! I'd really appreciate it! :)

I'm wondering if we can make the counter between the stove and the fridge a little smaller so the stove doesn't move too close to the sink area.

Also, my dh *thinks* he might be able to redo the duct chase's drywall so it is a little smaller. would that let us not have to have a 30inch countertops? I guess I am not really understanding why I'd need the 30" counter depth. Is it just for looks?

Thanks everyone so much! I really appreciate it!

You wouldn't have to redo the duct chase to make the counters smaller if you want them standard depth. Deep counters can be nice because you can put stuff at the back like a utensil crock, canisters, or coffee pot and still have plenty of room in front to use as counterspace. Plus deep counters can be nice when rolling out dough, etc.

This plan allows for the fridge handle, but still not enough room to open the door more than 90 degrees. I just tried my fridge and with the door only opened straight out the drawers bump the inner parts of the door before they get to their full extension. I guess if you leave the pantry door open all the time, as Blueberry is suggesting, and the doorway is large enough for the fridge door to open into, it could work.

I hate to see a kitchen with so much potential counter space for baking and prep (and upper cab space) end up with so little. Where will you keep coffee pot, toaster/toaster oven, mixer, etc? It's always a good idea to map out your storage to make sure you have what you need in all the right places...cooking utensils, baking utensils, baking pans (cake, pie, bread) and sheets, casserole and other baking dishes, Tupperware type containers, dish towels, foil/plastic wrap, etc., knives, pots and pans, mixing bowls, oils and spices, baking ingredients, small appliances of all sorts, and, of course, dishes, serveware, and glasses/cups. Just want to make sure you're not disappointed by any surprises when finished, and as your family grows, both in number and in cooking/eating quantities. (Your pan sizes will grow, too.)

I'm under 5' tall so I don't think I would even be able to reach to the back! LOL :) I'm sure dh would like it though!

Would making that 3" pullout into a 6 inch solve the problem?

Another consideration then: I have my island, the counter run holding my rangetop, and my baking counter at 33-34" for a better work height. (Cleanup and bfast counters are the only ones at 36".) My whole family (the main kitchen workers range from 5' to 5'5" with DH and oldest DS at 5'10") prefers those lowered counters for baking projects, chopping, making sandwiches, etc. Many forum folks have lowered areas for prep and/or baking.

The more standard thing to do with a fridge next to a wall is to have a 12" tall cabinet...But it depends on the particular model of fridge how much room you need. And they don't usually list that helpful piece of info on websites, so it's best to check it out in person.

So, it's back to the drawing board, I guess.

I can't figure out anything new....does anyone else want to try?!

What if I were to move the sink and the dishwasher? How big of a project is that? Would it help the layout at all?

I've re-read your posts a couple of times and I think with the space and door/duct constraints rhome's suggestion to have the frig by the sliding door on the sink wall works best.

Here's a question for you. How important is the table in the kitchen? With 4+ kids you may want more than just 36" of cold storage. Forgoing the kitchen table frees up that wall for super-sized pantry storage which in turn frees up the short wall section for 48" of cold storage + landing space. Because the frig/freezer would stick out further than the 22" duct chase, I would put bookshelves ala rhome's fantastic kitchen tucked into the resulting space facing the other counter. Obviously this only works if you have dining space elsewhere.

Here is the best I can do with that corner pantry. I made it a little bigger on one side (shelves are in red). I put everything in mason jars/ glass jars, so I don't think I'd need all the shelves really wide.

I forgot to draw in the island.

ACK I posted the wrong picture...trying again

Fridge is on the 60 in wall (wall A) next to the pantry.

Ah, we don't have a dining room--only an eat in kitchen.

We do have an additional refrigerator in our basement since we have a farm (lots of chicken eggs!), so a 36" fridge is probably sufficiant....although a HUGE pantry where the table would be would be a dream come true! :)

where can I see rhome's kitchen (and her bookshelves)?

Okay, dh said if needed we could move the dishwasher and sink. So, anything is game for this kitchen layout--except moving the window, return duct and the walls. :)

(Although, if we can get it to work without moving the plumbing, then we'll take that. We are on a budget, so nothing too extravagent. Our house is simple and small farmhouse that we are trying to modernize a little.)

Here are my priorities:
Large pantry area for holding lots of mason jars and grain buckets.

I want a simple, airy type feeling--not closed- in/built in

A focal point of glass wall cabinets to display some white dishes.

Appliances needed:
Toaster oven (in pantry preferably, if not on the counter out of the way)
Kitchen aid mixer --on counter

Range/oven

fridge

no microwave...we don't have one and don't plan on getting one :)

dishwasher

I know I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I don't understand about not closing up the 8 1/2 ft opening down to 6 ft to lengthen the 60" wall section. It still leaves a wide and very straight, clear path from living room through to the sliding doors. It gives your kitchen so much more and seems a smaller compromise than the expense and work of moving the range and/or sink and dishwasher. Do you have photos of the house that might explain so I'll leave you alone? ;-)

Sorry, forgot to post this photo of my kitchen. The shelf to which I think Laxsupermom was referring is on the far right. (Thanks for the nice compliment, Laxsupermom!)

I'll try to get pictures uploaded of the living room area also, but until I do, the front door is not opposite the sliding door. The door is opposite the 60 in wall--almost opposite the return duct. So, when you walk out the the kitchen walkway, you have to turn left and almost walk down a little hallway (because of where the sofa is) and then turn right to walk to the front door. It is certainly not a straight path.

Trust me, we bought this house for the land--not the layout of the house. It is really awkward. I don't mean to complain. We really love here (but just trying to make it function a little better).

I have a corner pantry and really love it. So that leads me to a question....what exactly is inside that chase and how is the chase framed? If its a round pipe or even a square pipe with 2x4 framing, you could probably eliminate the 2x4 framing and build a new chase out of 3/4" plywood. the plywood chase could be constructed in such a way to maximize space inside the pantry. Just a thought......

Cindy

It seems like no matter what, that when you get to the kitchen (coming from the front door), you'll have to turn or jog left to go to the slider since you'll run into the island and kitchen workers if you don't...

But that will be my last comment on the subject.

Cindy, my dh mentioned the same thing. He thinks there is studs inside, so we could take it down a few inches in each direction.

rhome--the wall could be closed up better on the table side of the kitchen better than the 60 Inch wall section, but that wouldn't really help much. If I were to close up the 60 in wall a much more on that 60 inch side, it would make it very awkward/ tight fit to walk from the sliding door to the front door...a path we take dozens of times a day. Most of this is because the layout/furnature layout of the living room. Isn't a walkway supposed to be at least 36 inches or something? If I close it up much more, it would be less than 2.5 feet--not something I want for the main walkway. By not having the wall there, the room divisions are vague and I can get by with technically less than 3 feet wall space.

How about if you swap the kitchen and dining areas? You could put a shallow pantry to the left of the sliding door, then fridge, counter space, stove, counter space rounding the corner, and then have the sink looking into the living room along the bottom. With an island sized right in the middle. Having a stationary island with no chairs in the isle would make access to the door a little easier.