100,000 BTU, 4 section boiler can't heat a 1300 sq ft house?

The boiler is big enough,, in fact probably oversized, there must be a circulation, piping, control, air-lock, firing rate, meaning a install problem.

Request for him to return one last time with a knowledgable rep to look it over, then find a quality heating contractor to look it over.

Can you take and post pictures of boiler system from several angles? We might see the problem here.

Thanks Zl700

At least you ruled out one fear -that the boiler was too small!

I will post photos tonight when I get home. Please return later tonight or tomorrow to look at my photos!

Again - thanks!

I agree with Z sounds like an installation problem. Post some pictures if you can, possibly one of us can spot the problem. I suggest you call the installer tell him about the problem, if he does not offer help contact the hvac regulating agency in your area most times they will help resolve a problem such as this. I recall one instance where an apt bldg owner had a similair problem, the installer had diffculty correcting it.and a conflict developed. Eventually our association was contacted the cause
a defective recirculating pump. The problem was discovered by a group from our hvac association, fixed under warranty.

Yesterday I the original installer (plumber/hvac guy) came out to look at. He thought it was air in the pipes so bled pipes. But it didn't solve problem. I called him again this morning, explaining that what he did di not solve issue and to come out again . I haven't heard back from his and am getting nervouse.

IGGIE - how would I find hvac regulating agency in Greenwich, CT? If my installer fails at resolving the issue - should I contact the agency before hiring a NEW hvac guy to look at? (Please keep in mind that my $$funds are very limited) Thanks!

I just got a call from the original installer (plumber) - he just checked my boiler and thinks he's found the problem - he said the blower was turned way down.

Does that sound right or make sense?

I guess I'll find out when I get home....keep your fingers crossed!

The problem could be as simple as the aquastat setting (water temperature) being too low on the gas boiler. The oil boiler might have been set to make hotter water. This allows the baseboard in each room to put out a greater amount of heat, thus heating faster. If the baseboards are getting warm or hot in each room, it is not an air problem. If it was air-locked, the baseboard wouldn't get warm at all - it would be room temperature. Find out what temperature the aquastat is set at on the gas boiler (and make sure that the water is actually reaching the setting on the aquastat.

Michael

No the blower can't be turned down on this boiler, there is none but, some circulators can, however I doubt the Dunkirk boiler would be shipped with a 3-speed circulator. You don't mention what type of heat dispersion you have so if you have an air-handler with a hot water coil, I suppose that could be turned down.

Many times when inexperienced or rushed installing contractors make a simple mistake, they make up something that comes to mind quick. He could have said your discombobulator was installed backwards from the factory and you would be ok with that as long as you got heat.

Let us know and pics would still be nice

The simplest way to locate the hvac regulating entity in your area is call your city hall information department and ask. Call them and explain your problem. Many times these type problems can be solved with a simple inspection from one of the experienced regulating body members. The case I mentioned had a recirculating pump that was defective, it was not checked because it was new and the installer was inexperienced.

****UPDATE****IÂVE ATTACHED LINK TO PHOTOS (below)

Whatever my plumber did yesterday did help a little bit. For example, in THREE hrs of running the heat this morning, instead of only increasing 3 degrees (from 60 to 63) it increased 6 degrees (from 60 to 66).

QUESTION Â Is this normal to take three hrs to increase temp by only 6 degrees? Maybe IÂm unrealistic in my expectations? (Although if I remember correctly, my 35 yr old oil boiler could increase the temp by 10 degrees in under 2 hrs) FYI - ItÂs 30 degrees outside

I did some detective work and sat down by the boiler for 30 minutes this morning. Is the following normal?

1. The burner will come on for approx. 3 mins. Then go out for 3 mins. This cycling seemed constant. Why doesnÂt it stay lit until the thermostat reaches the programmed temp?

2. The basement is the warmest room in the house due to the heat coming off the boiler unit (there are no radiators down in the basement)
3. The large vent/pipe coming from the boiler unit to the chimney is very very hot! Is this normal? It seems like a huge waste of heat to be going up the chimney to the outside.
   IÂm so frustrated as I really had to dig into my meager savings in order to change from oil boiler to natural gas. I thought I was doing the right thing but am really regretting it.

EVERYONE Â please offer comments/advice. YouÂll never know how much I appreciate them as I try to resolve my problem. THANK YOU!!

Cindy

Here is a link that might be useful: Photos of boiler and connections

Cindy,

A couple things;

The circulator appears to be installed in the right direction but you should confirm this. Check to see if a little arrow on the casting is pointed in line with the pipe headed to the bottom and pointed at the boiler.

You never mentioned I think what type of radiation you have? Baseboard, radiators??

I see no proper means of automatic air elimination at the boiler. On your new install, once he sealed the system by disconnecting the old air to water expansion tank (steel one at ceiling that he left behind) and hung the new grey one, there should be at a minimum a air scoop with auto vent on top, which by the way would have been a better place to hang new tank and introduce fresh water. Without proper air elimination besides manual that can be difficult you may still have air locks. I'm interested in seeing what those "acorn" vents look like in a picture and where they are.

The green thing that he left in the piping is a flow check, it may be stuck, the new boiler's circulator capacity may be significantly less than the old one and it is acting as a obstruction Being that your boiler is not a gravity system, pumped with multiple circulators and is a single supply pipe system, this should have and needs to be removed as if it is not the problem, is a least hampering the system efficiency.

Last thing, when opening up old systems, especially with steel pipe and radiators, it is common that particles break loose and have stopped or partially blocked the circulator. In addition the green item I mentioned may be stuck closed and needs to be removed anyways.

From what you are telling me with your great observance, the heat is not getting out of the boiler, based on your cycling comments. Again it comes back to circulation.

Solve the items above, and I note strongly should have been done the first time and is required to have a proper working heat, thus should be no charge.

I wonÂt hold back any punches here, by the looks of craftsmanship, the lack of detail, leaving some items in or at the install, regardless of what the sticker on the boiler says and how long they have been in business, the installer, salesman, owner (who may be one) lacks current knowledge, training & skills.

Good luck, and let us know

Hi z1700,

TYPE OF RADIATION: My radiators are original to the house (1950's). They are NOT like the old cast iron steam radiators but I believe they are call convectors (?) They are housed in metal boxes that are built 1/2 way into the wall with metal removable covers. When you remove the covers the heating unit appears to be bunch of vertical metal squares stacked horizontally (accordion like). Does that make sense?

I will take a photo of the "acorn"

I thought I did the right thing - I interviewed and got estimates for this job from 5 different hvac/plumbers. I did not hire the cheapest, but hired because he came highly recommended  even my natural gas company recommend him. I did it was the proper permits and all work was passed inspection, etc.

Before calling my plumber/installer to come back once again, do you think it would be wise for me to hire an unrelated third party to come out and try to diagnose the problem, but then have my original plumber/installer come back to do the recommended repair?

Cindy

Sounds as if you might have some type electronic control issue, the boiler should stay until the heat level called for by T stat is reached and not cycle every two to three minutes. You might talk to the installer about this. A problem such as this should be fixed without charge.

Cindy,
Yes you have convectors, popular in the 40-50s

I feel that the right thing to do is allow the original installer to correct anything that he failed to do under contract and do what it takes to get your system running properly per your agreement.

Once an outside party is brought in animosity is created and he may not wish to offer any further help without a lawsuit. You may wish to share with them that you reviewed the install, manual, talked to some neighbors and looked at their units, and even sought advice from the manufacturer or internet and wish to share this info to get your system corrected, because there is obviously a problem. Take a look at the install manual that came with the boiler or online, as ask why my system doesnÂt look like this and have that, and why do I still have that?

Have you talked with the owner or manager and asked him to come out to see the job or is this a small shop with a few people?

Improper flow can be checked very easily with thermometers, and even skilled techs can recognize flow issues with the sense of touch.

You mention the vent, pipes and basement is hot, but what is the limit set to which is under the front cover on the control box?

Removing, the green flocheck, checking circ for proper direction and seizing/obstructions, flushing system and installing the air scoop or better for air elimination is the first step and most likely the fix for your situation. Sorry to comment, any vents he added upstairs was mostly a waste of time and could have been done better during install at the boiler with totals cost to him around $25.

QUOTE
"QUESTION Â Is this normal to take three hrs to increase temp by only 6 degrees? Maybe IÂm unrealistic in my expectations? (Although if I remember correctly, my 35 yr old oil boiler could increase the temp by 10 degrees in under 2 hrs) FYI - ItÂs 30 degrees outside"
END QUOTE

It's not normal, but it depends on the temperature of the water. These numbers I'm giving are for baseboard, but the concept is the same for the convectors you have. At 120 degree water, baseboard puts out 200 BTU/ft. At 150 degree water it puts out 400 BTU/ft. At 180 degree water it puts out 600 BTU/ft.

As you can see, the hotter the water, the more heat you get in each room. Having hotter water allows you to heat up the rooms faster (as well as keep the heat up on really cold nights)

Again I ask, what is the temperature of the water in the system when it is running? Is it the same throughout the house? Are some pipes cooler than others? What is the temperature setting on the aquastat? It is the small black box attatched to the pipe just above the circulator and just below the temperature/pressure guage. If this setting is too low, you will never get enough heat output from the convectors to recover temperature quickly. Also, this could explain the short cycling.

QUOTE
"I did some detective work and sat down by the boiler for 30 minutes this morning. Is the following normal?

1. The burner will come on for approx. 3 mins. Then go out for 3 mins. This cycling seemed constant. Why doesnÂt it stay lit until the thermostat reaches the programmed temp?"
END QUOTE

The burners won't necessarily run continuously while the thermostat is calling for heat even if set up properly. There will be heat capacity differences between the amount of heat the boiler puts into the water, and the amount of heat the convectors can output. The goal is to get them close, but they will never be exact. The aquastat (which controls the burner run-time) only fires the burner when the water is cooler than its setting. Your boiler has an output of about 80,000 BTU. For example (using hypothetical numbers), if at 140 degree water, your convectors are only capable of putting out 40,000 BTU into the house, the burners are only going to run 50% of the time. If your water temperature is 180 degrees, the convectors are able to put out 70,000 BTU into the house. Thus the burners will run 90% of the time, and more heat will be put into the house.

Please let us know what the water temperature is in your system.

Michael

Michael - you asked for the Temp/Pressure Guage readings: It seemed to stay steady at a tad over 170 degrees and pressure was between 45/50. It didn't move much during the continuous cycling of the burner (3 minutes on/ 3 mins off - approx.)

xl700 - Here's a link to the "acorn" things he put on every radiator day before yesterday
http://flickr.com/photos/11363598@N03/

With this info do you have any other advice?

zl700 - are you still leaning toward lack of auto air elimination being the problem?

Here is a link that might be useful: Photo of

Micheal is right the boiler will not burn all the time when the T stat calls for heat however it will not cycle on and off every 3 or 4 minutes when heat is being called for either, you should be able to get a temp rise similar to what you got with old setup. I still think you have some type electronic control problem. something is defective or the unit is not setup correctly

zl700 asked: "Check to see if a little arrow on the casting is pointed in line with the pipe headed to the bottom and pointed at the boiler."

Is the circulating pump the black piece in photo P1010029? If yes, there is a sort of arrow (really, more of a simple triangle) on the back and it is pointing TOWARDS the pipe going into the boiler. If you look at this photo, the arrow in the back is pointing to the left side of the photo and in the direction of the silver piece.

FYI - Starting at the green flow control valve I walked the permiter of the basement and confirmed that the large pipe and the tees that lead to the individual convectors feel warm/hot (there are no cold pipes) so it seems there is no blockage.

Zl700 asked: "Have you talked with the owner or manager and asked him to come out to see the job or is this a small shop with a few people?" ItÂs a one man shop but he IS coming out again on Monday. I will follow your advice and remain amicable in a last effort to get him to solve the issue! Thanks for your advice.

The installation in the photos does not look bad I have seen worse. If the installer cannot find problem, suggest he call the manufactuers customer service department, they have someone there who will help, tell him what to check and save everyone lots of aggrivation. This is an avenue often overlooked. Many times people do not want to admit they are stumped and need help. However, the manufactuer knows his product better than anyone else and can often easily solve seemingly baffling problems. Good Luck Iggie

I agree with Iggie, get the manufacturer of your new boiler involved. Chances are, they have a technical representative in your area who can help the contractor trouble-shoot.

You guys are AWESOME!!! Thank you. Plumber (original installer) is coming out tomorrow and I'll "gently" share your comments (still figuring out how to do that without creating animosity - I can't really say "a bunch of guys on the internet told me X,Y,Z.)

I will give him credit that he called twice this weekend to make sure I was not miserable and confirmed he's as baffled as I am and will come out on Monday (tomorrow)

There are problems that stump all of us, thats the reason all big equipment manufactuers have technical support departments. The installer should not get miffed if you suggest using this avenue. I think it,s evident he is stumped and going in circles. No manufactuer wants his product to preform poorly and all I have dealt with over the years will gladly provide aall the help needed to fix a problem, especially with a piece of new equipment. You sound like a class lady and have been more than reasonable. Good luck Iggie

Thanks for the pic of the vent. Based on what I see, and that the convector(s) are at a highpoint in the system I doubt you have an air problem, at least for long.

You want to make sure the caps are loose on the top for it to function.

Now the criticism, I would never put auto vents in this place as they can fail and eventually leak, destroying your wood floors.

Maybe the compromise is to leave caps on tight and loosen every once in awhile to check for air and let it out.

zl700 - Regarding the potential for leaks with the vents, what would cause a leak and is it a commone problem?
Thanks!!

It was good to see that a better quality vent was used however, they all can get something stuck in the vent seat causing them to leak. Not a big deal in basement as in time they tend to plug up with sediment and depending on water, calcium and lime. Upstairs, will it be noticed in time before it saturates the under floor and warps hardwoods?
You make the call.

I prefer, as most, practice proper air elimination belongs at boiler.

By the way perhaps you should give this guy a chance but to install a few vents and purge system and charge $500 for a return trip to solve a problem of not heating of a system he just installed and prior to that he left no means to vent itself?

Negotiate that bill!!!!!!

Cindy, I have the exact situation right down to the sq ft, and furnace size. My system is brand new, and takes forever to move up just a few degrees. My old furnace increased my home by 10 degrees in about 30 minutes or so. I increased my aquastat from 180 to 200. It's not much better. Now they want to keep it on 220. What's the point then. If it needs to be on 220 on a 44 degree day, then what will it need to be on when it's 20 or less. Please let me know how your situation ended. Thanks, Carl (from Long Island)

Carl - I feel your pain. No resolution on my end yet.

What has your plumber/HVAC person said about the sitution?

Cindy

Cindy,

Looking at your pics (never noticed the one with the pressure gauge before) it is really high or reading wrong. At that pressure the relief valve should be discharging.

If it is high, Im still thinking that green thing (flow control) in your piping that is not necessary on a cold start boiler is restricting your circulation.

This could be confirmed by measuring your supply and return piping and calculating the difference.

I presume you have a hot water circulation system as opposed to forced air? If its a water setup then each and every radiator must be bled from time to time - there should be a little valve on each one to do that and its a $0 dollar job. If this guy charged you $500 you are being royally ripped off as he should have checked that as part of the original "installation". Even at $50 an hour thats 10 hrs and it should take a minute for each radiator....if your radiators are old the valve handles might have gone AWOL and you will need the appropriate little spanner or whatever...

There has to be some sort of warranty on the new equipment and installation.......you should get your $500 back and threaten to complain to the Better Business Bureau (did you check the installer out before hiring I wonder?)

As a comparison BTW I have the temp at 55 when out or at night and 68 when at home......maybe I am used to wearing sweaters as I come from the UK....

zl700 - psi is approx. 18 when boiler in running (which I've been told by multiple people is normal)

Chester Grant - Plumber came highly recommended from multiple sources and from gas company - has been in bus for over 30 yrs. The $500 bill included all new auto-vents installed on all convectors (my old ones were 60 yrs old) and 2.5 hrs labor.

Chester Grant- May I ask how long take to warm house from 55 to 68 degrees? 1 hr? 30 mins? etc?

Sorry, once I blew it up realized I read wrong scale.

Again back to checking circulation, does the first convector get alot hotter than the others? or the same?

zl700 - They all get about product about the same degree is heat. And they do get fairly hot.

Hi Cindy, my plumber stated that since my furnace is in a room off the back of the house (not in a basement like yours) that I'm taking a heat loss when the water first circulates out of the furnace. My question then is why did this not happen with the old furnace! Pretty frustrating. They claim that the system is working fine, and that with my setup the way it is, the aquastat needs to be on 200 degrees. I actually spent my Sunday reading about all of this on the computer, and watching my boiler run on various aquastat settings. The house does heat up faster (but not much) with the setting at 200 degrees, but then like yours, it's on 3 min, off, then back on again... etc. The baseboards still just get a little warm, when they used to be hot. I will continue to search. Carl:)

200 degree water, and only warm? anouther circulation problem
(not enough pump, restriction or short circuiting flow)

Findme572 (Carl) - May I suggest you post your problem at the forum I added below?

These guys are HVAC experts/plumbers and were VERY helpful in diagnosing my various issues. Seriously - they know their stuff! You may find it of interest to read the thread I started there and the many responses ("New boiler not producing enough heat").

(No offense to Garden Web - I LOVE this site!!!.)

Here is a link that might be useful: A forum addressing boiler/heating issues

Thanks for the circulation tip, and thanks for the link to the other site. I'm on my way to it now. :)

wow, i read the whole thread, what a cliff hanger.lol

This sounds like the thermostat is bad or the boiler is shutting down on the limit switch. Start the boiler and watch the aquastat. what's the limit set at, what's temp when it shuts down,