Goodman HVAC - worth upgrading

11 years ago

Moving into a new house, mid-atlantic area, ~1400 sqft one floor, R19 walls, R30 ceiling, with a full (~1300 sqft) unfinished basement.

Standard equipment is a Goodman single stage system:

- 69k BTU 92% AFUE furnance

- 2.5 tons 13 SEER AC

[This is what they also equip crawlspace-only homes with, ie. no capacity upgrade with the full basement.]

I asked the developer to price out 2 upgrades:

A. Single stage:

- 92k 95% AFUE Dual$aver furnace (single stage thermostat, but internally can run a 60% btu initially, then moves to full heat after a given time). Also adds a 10yr unit warranty.

- 3.0 ton 16 SEER AC - adds lifetime compressor warranty

B. Dual stage

- 92k 95% AFUE variable speed blower (10yr unit warranty)

- 3.0 ton 18 SEER AC (and lifetime compressor warranty)

- 'ComfortNet' protocol with top of the line CTK01 thermostat

Based on internet pricing:

- between std and 'A' seemed to be about $1200; the developer wants $2300.

- between std and 'B' seemed to be I think about $3k; the developer wants $4400.

I was looking to get some incremental upgrades:

- a little more efficiency (lot more on the AC)

- longer warranties

- higher capacity to better handle the basement (assuming at some point some/all might be finished space)

- dual stage (knew that would be more $$)

I'm trying to decide if the costs are justifiable. I don't know how Goodman is on service life. I've heard of Trane, York, Lennox, Carrier before, never Goodman. If it's not the most reliable brand, do I want to be putting "good money after bad". [FYI - no option to get any other vendor's HVAC system installed).

I know moving from 13 to 16 or 18 SEER can save money. But will I save THAT much money to offset the higher up front costs. [As new development, I don't think I have the ability to claim any efficiency rebates, even if ones were available.]

Option (C) I guess would be to just run with this equipment, save my money, and figure when it dies, replace it then with a better system.

I have a couple of days to decide if I want either upgrade. Any replies would be appreciated.

Jeff

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Comments (4)

hamconsulting
11 years ago
Are you over sizing equipment and upgrading from builders grade to mid level? Provide model numbers.

It looks like you have good insulation in attic and walls and probably windows, so why oversize on both heating and cooling? Oversized equipment can also lead to higher operating cost due to larger equipment, shorter cycling which can lead to humidity issues and motor stress, and costlier installation due to equipment needs.

By the way, you gain 12% energy savings on cooling on average based on standard charts found on brochures when you go from 13 SEER TO 16 SEER. If your cooling costs are $400 per year, then your savings are $48 per year.
ryanhughes
11 years ago
2.5 tons sounds big for 1400 sqft new construction. Basement doesn't add much load. I definitely wouldn't recommend going with a 3 ton 2-stage unit. Given the style of most new construction installations, I wouldn't spend the money on the upgrades. Nominally they're more efficient, but when oversized and installed poorly on undersized duct systems, you won't see much savings. I hope they did a load calculation and will install a properly sized duct system...
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happs I will assume you are sized correctly but that is alot of firepower on the AC side and of course that furnace is only 80% efficient. I would prefer an upgrade price to the XR13, a nicer condenser than the XB series. And you might want to look at the XR15 in a 5 ton model. I believe the 5 ton comes with two stg and certainly would be a less expensive alternative to the XL20i condenser.Verify with dealer. The thermostat will work but it will not give you full two stg functionality. I would want a true two stg thermostat for that furnace. You get all kind of opinions of Goodman Brand. Better than they use to be in the higher end mdls. Low end stay away from. I personally would not have it for my home unless strictly budget driving my decision. I would want to know how long you intend to be in home. IMO
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Thanks for the quick responses! The existing furnace is an oil-fired York, 125 KBTU, which is at least 30 years old. I have been told it's horribly inefficient, but I don't know the number. The AC condenser is 3 tons and 25 years old (also not efficient). The house should probably have 2 zones (especially to deal with better cooling the second floor in the heat of summer), but I have been told that's not possible (at least not for a reasonable price). Otherwise, there are no noticeable issues with the current system, other than those endemic to scorched air heat. Each room has at least one supply vent and one return. The basement is below grade and is used as living area. There are two supply vents and one return in the basement area. There is no insulation between floors, but the basement walls are insulated (R-7.5). Beefing up the attic insulation is on the near-term to do list. The house currently does not have a humidifier, and while no one is suffering nose bleeds, the air is dry. So, I thought a humidifier would be helpful. I would definitely like to tighten the house (and new windows may be on the radar in the near future), but given that it is an older home, I think there is only so much that can be done. The Carrier dealer said the furnace would be no more than 100 KBTU, with the final determination after the house is measured and a load calculation performed. Both companies will also do a whole house energy audit prior to commencing work. So I would assume (and hope) the Lennox dealer will modify his numbers accordingly after the load calculation and energy audit. Our natural gas marginal price/therm is $0.83 Our electricity marginal price/kWh is $0.22 for on peak, and $0.07 for off peak. With regard to the Carrier condenser, what makes the 24ANB6 superior to the 24ACC6? I know a lot of people on this forum prefer Carrier over Lennox. All else equal, I have no problem going with Carrier (I know the Infinity controls are fantastic), but there is a $1,500 price difference... Thanks again for your help.
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I think if you foam the attic, you solve all the problems with your last house. I built recently at the NC coast and we had 2 two ton heat pumps. It cost $1000 to upgrade both to seer 15. That also gave a better warranty. I think seer 15 is nearly always worth it in our climate. Now foaming the attic makes the payoff for seer 15 longer but still probably reasonable. Now if you told me you were building extremely tight and really minimize the East and West windows and shade the south ones, then seer 15 might not be worth it. That is why these questions are so hard to answer. Everything is ... it depends. But a decent generality is that if you have to have East and West windows in SC, seer 15 is worth it. One could build a house with a $100 a year a/c requirement in SC for seer 13 and then it wouldn't be worth upgrading to seer 15. I know you've decided to foam the roof deck but I always have to be the skeptic. My electric bills last year were $350 total for the 3 hot months. I am absolutely sure that foaming the attic would have saved some money. I am pretty sure it would be less than $50 a year. While we a/c longer than 3 months, those bills also include everything else electric. So almost 1/2 those bills are not a/c so I think they are a pretty good estimate of the total annual a/c use. Foam salesman will of course differ in their estimates. But the foam mostly only helps the upstairs system and my house (and probably your house) has 2/3 of the a/c use downstairs. Even if the foam saved 40% of my upstairs bill - it is about $50. Now foam also saves in winter but is often justified in a/c use. Comfort upstairs would be helped by rigid foam on the knee walls. This is a far greater ROI although honestly it still probably exceeds 10 years. I think you might be overkilling it to overcompensate for your last uncomfortable house.
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The $9091 for the Bryant, is before any rebates or tax incentives, correct? There are many happy owners of Goodman systems but my opinion, based on what I've seen and read and experiences of neighbors, is they tend to be a lower grade product. Now, most brands are very similar in terms of parts, but to some respect it still holds true. Goodman is geared toward lower budget applications and can be bought fairly easily and at a lower cost. Feature wise the Goodman is lacking compared to the Bryant. If you are comfortable with the Goodman dealer, see about having him quote a more comparable system to the Bryant Evolution. I do not see any mention of a thermostat to control the Goodman system. The Evolution control is above anything else on the market, though the VisionPRO IAQ from Honeywell comes very close. A one-man operation did the HVAC of a new construction home 18 years ago? That's pretty impressive (of course I assume he must have had the help of a few others). Usually these jobs go to large sub-contractors.
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david_cary
11 years ago
The basement is a minor issue with loads.

I have a full walkout with 10 windows and 2 doors (one glass) in NC and 10 ft ceilings. It is 1400 sqft finished (about 600 unfinished). I practically disconnected the ductwork this summer. I would say I cut the airflow 80% so there is just a trickle coming out. It is enough to circulate the air and prevents the need for a dehumidifier ... and the basement is still a degree or two colder than upstairs.

Mid-atlantic is a pretty variable area and honestly which states seem to vary who you talk to. But it is always north of NC....

The increase on the heating side is pretty crazy too but certainly there is a heat load on a basement. Mine is probably 8000 btus - certainly not 30k.

So are you talking a walkout with a wall of windows or a true basement? Do you have 10 ft ceilings? Do you have underslab insulation? Do you have foam outside poured concrete walls?
jwhite4
Original Author
11 years ago
House is in Phila Pa. 2 exposed qalls (at 90' angles); 1/2 of one wall is 2 car garage; there is southern exposure on the other sides

First floor has 9' ceilings; basement should have 8' to the underside of the joists. 11 windows throughout the house, all Anderson low-E ones (builder grade, don't think they are top of the line). Basement should be mostly submerged.

std:
GSX130301DB & GKS90703BX

'A':
GMH950904CX & SSX160361

'B':
GMVC950905CX & DSXC180361 & CTK01

If A&B are oversized, it's my fault: I assumed with a full basement, heating an air condition should be increased.

I can't speak to the quality of the construction. There's no option to come in prior to closing to do my own work, ie. get an HVAC crew into properly seal the ducts.

There's also no option at this point to suggest any different configurations. And as a brand new house, I have no idea what fuel costs with the standard configuration are.

If at least the 'A' upgrade had come in lower priced, I probably would have gone with it. I'm thinking now, even if it was better sized, I'm not sure I'd ever see a payback on the extra cost.

Thoughts? And thanks.

Jeff

Goodman HVAC - worth upgrading

Comments (4)

hamconsulting

ryanhughes

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Goodman HVAC - worth upgrading

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hamconsulting

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jwhite4Original Author

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