wombat

It should be noted that the heat exchanger may be covered by warranty. Since you are not the original owner, the warranty might be voided. Might be worth checking.

You have full confidence in your servicing dealer's diagnosis? If not a second opinion might be in order.

What is your electric rate and nat gas rate that includes all related costs for each? I will run a quick fuel comparison for you.

At the minimum , I would recommend a good two stg var speed furnace 95% efficient probably a 70-80 KBTU model. Your rates would determine whether a HP would be advisable.

I always suggest new refrigerant lineset , whole house air filter cabinet, programmable thermostat,and perhaps a humidifier depending on your
home.

IMO

tigerdunes,

Thanks for the quick response. The heat exchanger warranty was voided - I had checked on warranty on the system a couple of years ago because of the failing SmartValve. The regular maintenance had not been kept up by the homeowner in the interim between the one who installed the system and us, so even if it was transferrable, we didn't have records to keep the warranty in force.

I am fairly certain in the dealer's diagnosis. We had a problem with the fossil fuel board for the system about 3 years ago and had a different service company in to take care of that problem and service the system and that technician had informed us of a small crack, but at that time there was no apparent (or at least significant) CO problem in the combustion of the furnace. That tech's advice was to keep an eye on the issue. Also, the dealer we are working with now is very reputable, locally owned and longstanding in the community. As much as I can trust any technician when I can't diagnose a problem myself, I think this is the right diagnosis.

From my most recent utility bill, our fully laden cost for electricity is $0.175/kWh. If I've done the math correctly, natural gas is costing us $0.93 per Therm ($0.90237 per Ccf *1.031 CCF per Therm).

We've decided that we will replace the whole system, line set and all. Programmable thermostat and automatic humidity control - definitely want to add a whole house humidifier to the system.

Thanks again for your input.

Ted

Wombat

Assuming your rates are correct, a HP on a BTU basis is just about doubled the cost of a nat gas BTU. Forget the HP altogether.

Obviously then spending any significant dollars on repairing the old system would be foolish and a waste of resources.

IMO

the heat exchanger might have a 20 year warranty. However,
if the tech let the gas on...HE is not train properly. Cracks cause DEATH...

Chuck,

The tech did the right thing - he did not leave the gas on. He shut off the gas valve to the furnace and (I believe) programmed it out of the thermostat.

For the moment, we are operating purely as a heat pump with no backup - which is okay in this climate for probably the next 3 - 4 weeks until it starts to get really cold overnight... even then we have a few more weeks we can get by with extra blankets and the wood stove fireplace insert if we have to.

tiger,

After my last message, I realized that I was looking at a summer rate schedule bill so my electricity rate for heating was overstated. However, I also found out that the Residential Heating rate for PECO Energy in Pennsylvania is being phased out - 50% of the discount is being removed this heating season and the rest is being eliminated next heating season, so effectively the 17.5 cent/kWh is still accurate.

I could cut the rate some by switching to a competitive provider, but I think instead, after discussion with my wife, we are going to switch to a provider that will be just under 17 cents/kWh but is instead 100% renewable energy instead of fossil fuels. The truly green thing to do would be to do that AND get a heat pump/gas hybrid system, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to go to that expense.

So far I have 3 contractors coming to give me quotes - one sells Trane and their own house brand, another is primarily a Bryant dealer and the third is a carrier dealer. I know about the Carrier/Bryant connection, so I think those two dealers will be providing comparable equipment.

The Trane dealer is in the running because I have my current contract with them, but I'm not sure I am interested in Trane equipment. What's the general feeling about he house branded equipment - is it usually of acceptable quality? This is a large local dealer with a good reputation and a long track record (40 years).

Like you I tinker a bit and like to be informed before asking someone to come over and look. I thought the link below was interesting because it used the actual gas bill and furnace information. Should help verify you are in the ball park for furnace size. I did the actual calculations myself and also found my furnace to be over sized by about 53%. Also figure if I need to I can supplement with auxiliary heat on the coldest days. Will let this winter tell me. Going to hook an hour meter up to the second stage of my furnace so I know how many hours per day the second or high stage runs. Will be interesting.

I also did some calculations for my heat pump and decided to pretty much turn it off for the month. I have a slightly modified spreadsheet created by Penn State using Excel if you are interested. Helps easily compare Natural gas and Electricity and has the efficiencies included in the sheets. Removed a few lines I did not need and added a few extra for heat pump use. Calculations are pretty much self explanatory.

http://energy.cas.psu.edu/costcomparator.html

Might want to keep the heat pump option on the table. If gas prices go up it might be cheaper to use electricity. Also depends on the COP of the unit. Also nice to have a backup for at least part of the year if needed.

Here is a link that might be useful: Calculations using Gas Bill History.

FYI: I'm across the Delaware in Camden County (use Philly design temps). Have a 2500 SF home (23 years old) with good windows/insulation, fair construction.

My heat gain/loss figures are very close to yours. You'll enjoy the comfort of a smaller furnace, especially is a modulating unit.

V

Thanks for the input veesubotee,

Actually, I grew up in Camden County - Cherry Hill. I thought I would miss South Jersey when I moved to PA, but I've come to LOVE Chester County.

I am looking forward to a more comfortable house this winter (once I get over the big price tag)

Ted

Wombat

I think the idea of keeping the HP alive is not good advice considering your electric rate.

You might want to look into several of the modulating furnaces. If you pursue, make certain the brand/ model is full modulating and both moves up and down based on the demand requirements due to your home, inside thermostat setting, and outside temperature (heat loss).

IMO

Tiger,

I agree that the cost of keeping HP in the system is not a winner. After talking to the first two contractors that were here this morning, I have pretty much removed that from the equation.

Are the Carrier Infinity/Bryant Evolution full modulating furnaces? I had thought not, but may have been misinformed. Of the two contractors here so far, one is a Bryant specialist and the other sells Trane and Lennox. I see mostly good things about Carrier/Bryant, and mixed things about Trane and Lennox in my research.

What is your thought on the Lennox modulating furnace?

Hopefully tonight I'll have some quotes on specific equipment to post.

Wombat

Not a Lennox fan period.

Carrier/Bryant has not introduced their full modulating furnace yet.

The Infinity/Evolution furnaces are three stage and great equipment.

Right now, if I was looking at a mod furnace, it would be Trane/AmStd and York/Luxaire. You want full modulating mdls that move up and down according to demand.

IMO

Okay the Bryant contractor appears to be hungry... within 2 hours he had a proposal emailed and printed and dropped off in my mailbox.

Here are the details of the proposal. We'll see what comes from the other contractors, but at first glance, this looks competitive.

Furnace: Bryant Evolution 355CAV0042060 furnace 95% 60K BTUH
Bryant Evolution 187BNA036 3 ton two stave condensing unit with
CNPVPATA evaporator coil.
Evolution control SYSTXBBUID01C

Quote includes Bryant space guard air cleaner, Bryant (Aprilaire) 600 humidifier, new condensate drain and pump, new power disconnect for the condenser unit, new line set, new piping for the direct vent

Total quote $9495 less $1700 in rebates (600 Bryant, 600 from our utility co. $500 tax credit) for a total of $7795.

It seems pretty good to me (we'll see what the other quotes come in at), but I may have just been overstating the expected price in my head.

A couple of questions - in general is this a good level of equipment? The quote lists the 355CA as a modulating furnace, but Bryant's website doesn't indicate that in the product description.

Second, the include Man-J evaluation of the house is about the same as my own calc for cooling load, but is lower on the heating load. My calc showed 55K BTUH heating load. His shows 48K BTUH. I think the 60K furnace should be okay, but it's kind of cutting it close. I don't want to over buy, but want to be sure. The heating load limit only really comes in to play on those couple of days/nights per year when we are at the extreme design temperature or below, right? It shouldn't make a difference if we're at 25 or 30 degrees and just trying to keep the temperature steady?

Ted

Wombat

Get the size of that evap coil.

I will look up the AHRI matching number.

That's a heck of a system. Great HVAC.

I do have a little reservation on furnace size but if he agrees that if it will not maintain your inside comfort temperature for your climate, then he will upgrade to the 80 K model on his dime. Get this in writing.

IMO

Thanks Tiger,

I'm not sure what info in the quote is relevant to post here. The quote does list AHRI Reference # 3747259 - does that help with the sizing of the coil?

Is the sort of guarantee on the size of the furnace a fairly standard thing to ask for? What sort of price differential would I typically be looking at to go from the 60K to 80K furnace?

I'll update myself. I found the model of the coil based on the AHRI number - it is CNPVP3717ATA - so based on the AHRI number I just need to confirm with the contractor that this is the specified coil.

Wombat

This system is an AHRI matching system.

The AhRI number he provided is incorrect.

Here is the correct number below.

4795130 Active Systems EVOLUTION 16 PURON AC BRYANT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS 187BNA036****B* � CNPV*3717A**+UI 355(A,C)AV042060 37400 13.10 17.00

I still like my suggestion on the furnace sizing.

It appears you are working with a very good dealer.

IMO

Thanks again Tiger.

I did find the AHRI that he used in the proposal in the Bryant document linked below. It matches the same equipment for the AHRI number you gave, but that document is dated last year. Does the AHRI number perhaps get updated each year?

I am very please overall with the experience with this dealer so far. I think I am going to ask him to modify the quote for the 80K furnace and see what difference that makes.

I am waiting for another quote from someone who came here today, and have another appointment on Thursday (with a Carrier dealer). I will see if I can get a second Bryant dealer out to give me a comparable quote as well.

Ted

Here is a link that might be useful: Bryant Doc

Upgrading from a 60K to 80K BTU furnace should add $200-$300 to the cost. The 60K furnace seems marginal for a 2500 sq. ft. house. Do you set back your thermostat at night with your present system? If you do, then you will see it will take a long time for recovery with a 60K furnance. There is nothing wrong with this other than having breakfast in a cold house.

Mike,

We do set back at night - most nights it doesn't ride down all the way to the set back temperature, but on the coldest days, it will I'm sure. If the upgrade is in the $200 - $300 range I will probably opt for that.

Thanks,

Ted

I'm really liking this first Bryant dealer that gave me the quote yesterday.

I asked about the cost to upgrade to an 80K furnace and he just replied that it would not cost me any additional. He said that their current software for calculating the manual J uses just a simplified exterior envelope method instead of room by room measurements and he's not comfortable that it is quite as accurate as the old software.

He said that if we go forward, he would come out and run the more detailed manual J before any equipment was ordered so we could be 100% sure.

Finally, they do not normally participate in the Bryant financing specials with GE Money, but when I asked he said he is going to investigate because he feels that they need to get good financing established.

He's saying everything right and doing everything to get my business. If it wasn't a well known, well respected, long established business I'd be afraid it was a fly-by night company and couldn't be this good, but everything seems just right.

Now I need to find another Bryant dealer close enough to home that I also feel comfortable with so I can get a true apples-to-apples comparison.

Wombat

I see no red flags.

Dealer is saying all the right things and obviously he wants your business.

The idea he will perform a man J is a good indication. Before he performs this and runs the numbers, you need to agree on your inside thermostat
setting and outside temp for both cooling and heating. I always like to use a fudge factor for both. Generally you size to the average which can get you into trouble on the extremes. Ask dealer what he thinks. You know your climate though and you are the boss.

Dealer should make a thorough inspection of your duct system for size/design, leaks, insulation qualities, adequate return. If you have any hot/cold spots these need to be pointed out and suggestions made for improvement.

IMO

Okay... second quote received. This from the Lennox Dealer.

I'm pretty sure I know what tigerdunes will say, but here are the details for consideration.

This is private label equipment manufactured by Lennox - I'm not really sure about that, the dealer said they are the "only" dealer that Lennox has this arrangement with - I find that hard to believe, and also am wary of the fact as it seems like it might cause problems with services down the road.

Air Conditioner: Lennox XC16-036 3 ton 2 speed with matching indoor coil 16.0 SEER/ 11.7 EER - no specific model or AHRI reference number given for the coil

Furnace: Lennox G61MPV-60C-091 88K BTU (I think this is input rating on the Lennox, so it would be 83600 BTU output) 2 stage furnace

Honeywell F100 pleated air media cleaner
Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ thermostat
Aprilaire 600 humidifier

Quote includes 10 year parts and labor, 5 year maintenance agreement

All this for the Low Low price of $10039 after all rebates and tax credit - $12339 before rebates/credit

These are the guys that have the current service contract. I don't know why I would even really pursue this further.

How much is the 10 year labor warranty really worth? The maintenance plan included for 5 years is nice, but again, it just locks me in with up-front costs.

I should note that the Bryant quote also includes a 2 year maintenance agreement - I hadn't mentioned that before.

Okay... I received updated AHRI reference numbers (and copies of the certificates) from the Bryant dealer for both the 60K and 80K furnace options.

One thing I am concerned about is the clearance for the stack of equipment in the basement utility room. There is only a clearance of 63 inches to the bottom of the main supply duct. The Lennox dealer mentioned this, and the Bryant dealer took note of it as well, but here are the options the Bryant dealer has presented me with:

60K Unit
AHRI # 4891891:
Condenser: 187BNA036
Coil: CNPVP3717ATA
Furnace: 355CAV04260

80K Unit
AHRI #4891910
Condenser: 187BNA038 (same)
Coil: CNPVP4821ATA
Furnace: 355CAV060080

The coil for the 60K unit is 5 inches taller than the coil for the 80K setup.

The total height of the stack (including a 2 inch base) for the 60K unit would be over 69 inches - that doesn't seem like it would fit. The 80K setup that they have specified still has a 64 inch height, which would mean the coil sticks part way into the supply duct - is this a significant problem?

I have found the Bryant 2010-2011 product handbook so that is helping me to put together what I think is the ideal system.

If I understand it, ideally I need for my use a 3 ton condenser, a coil that can handle at least 3 tons of cooling, a furnace that can provide at least 3 tons of cooling airflow (it looks like Bryant has two options here - 3.5 tons of airflow (042 series) or 5 tons (060 series). I need the combination to be less than 61 inches tall (to allow for the 2 inch base underneath and I want it to be eligible for the cooling tax credit (which I think means minimum 16 SEER/13 EER rating).

I THINK I should be able to put that together, but I need to cross reference the overall design.

Just a quick question - the coil and cooling airflow capacity can be oversized without adversely affecting things, correct? When we talk about correct sizing we are referring to the condenser and the furnace output right?

Thanks again for any input.

Ted

Okay... Carrier dealer was just here. Only spent about 10 minutes - interrupted the previous post so that's why this one is so soon after.
I was unimpressed to say the least.

He appears to be the size it based on what they had kind of operation. He must (I hope) have looked at the outside unit for the heat pump before knocking on the door - because he didn't ask me about size or location of the unit.

He took the access panel off of the current furnace, read off the size of the existing unit. Described the different options of Carrier equipment that he will quote.

He didn't ask me one question about our comfort or satisfaction with the existing system. Didn't take any measurements of the house at all from what I could see. Described the Carrier Infinity system. Said that the one main recommendation that he makes to all customers is to get a furnace with a variable speed fan, whatever they end of doing.

Talked about his 30 years in the business, blah, blah blah. And then said he'd have a quote in the mail to me for tomorrow.

That was it... 180 degrees the opposite of the Bryant dealer, and way behind the Lennox dealer as well.

I'll look at the quote when it comes, but got NO good feelings about dealing with him.

Incidentally, while I was typing this, the Bryant dealer just emailed me again asking what they can do to earn our business.

Ted

It looks like the Bryant dealer is the clear winner. Ask him if he can include a 10 year labor warranty from Bryant. I would also go over with with him your concerns about the height issue. Perhaps he can customize the duct work to make to good transition.

Sizing is based on the furnance and condenser capacity. The furnace blower is designed to handle a range of condenser sizes. It is very common for Carrier/Bryant systems to have a larger coil than the the condenser. You should have no worries if it is a legal AHRI match. I have this set up in my house.

Don't wait too much longer. HVAC contractors are swamped the first cold day of the season. Move quickly on this if you are ready.

Well, I spoke with the Bryant dealer about the clearance below the supply duct - his notes said 73 inches of clearance, not 63. Sure enough, he was right and I was mis-remembering the measurement. (In hindsight, 63 inches was WAY too low - I couldn't even stand below something 5' 3" off the floor.

So that's not an obstacle.

Now to just consider the third quote when it gets here and make a decision.

Ted

wombat

I would say you are ready to go. The remaining question is whether you require the 60 K or 80 K model.

If the load calc for heating is close on the 60 K, I would go with the 80 K. Will cost you a little more in operating costs.

IMO
Good Luck!

Thanks for all the help, tigerdunes and mike_home.

System is ordered. Install is scheduled for Halloween.

Got the quote from the unimpressive Carrier dealer and it was just as unimpressive as he was.

Just got off the phone with the Bryant dealer and we have decided on the 80K furnace.

I'll let you know how the install goes. This has been an exhausting week researching all of this info to make a good decision, and we still have to pay for the darned thing, but I am SO looking forward to the new system and a warm, comfortable winter.

Thanks again to everyone.

Just wanted to say thanks again for all the advice and help. The tech just left after finishing the install of the Bryant system.

Last night we just had heat - the AC side of the install and the humidifier were completed today. Last night was another cold one, but the furnace kept things quite toasty.

First impressions are that the system is REALLY quiet compared to old technology furnaces.

The installation appears to me (an untrained eye) to be really first rate - no complaints at all.

I can't wait now for heating system to get here so we can really feel the difference.

Ted