Well one has rather grown used to the nit-picking and heated debate on a washing machine after it is on the market, this is probably the first time the games have begun before the unit is in mass distribution.

According to Miele USA in New Jersey,the new washers and dryers have not been offically released yet,but that has not stopped some dealers from taking "pre-orders" and showing the appliances should they have received their floor demo models. Indeed the person I spoke with at Miele USA's headquarters seem VERY surprised one had seen photographs of the new units on line and keep insisting it "was not possible". FWIW, Miele USA takes their marching orders from Miele in Germany, so if tech/customer support does not have any information, then that is true. What they have is what Miele has sent, and that will be all until the new units enter mass distribution. This is not unusual as IIRC Bosch keep it's cards close to their vest before launching the Nexxt washer and dryer line. Manuals and other information were not widely available until perhaps a few days before or after units hit the stores.

All and all this kind of makes sense, especially with today's Interent/scan/post world. Introducing a new product to market is difficult enough, without "leaks" and so forth muddying the waters before hand.

As for the "soak" option: Miele does not make special units for the United States, but rather usually tweaks a European unit to work with American power supply and other quirks of that country. If one goes over to Miele UK and looks at the W4000 range of washing machines, several match the new line being introduced to the United States. By comparing control panels and cycles one should get a pretty good IDEA of what is being offered on the other side of the pond. By reading the user manuals, one can also get information regarding cycles and machine usage. Regarding the soak cycle, several of the UK models have that feature, and on the W4000 one chooses "Soak" from the list of "Extra" cycles, then hits a button to increase the time range which runs from 2-6 hours.

The owner's manual does not say much about how the cycle works and what the machine does. Indeed compared to the manual for my W1070 the darn thing is quite criptic. What Miele has done is with this new line of washing machines is pretty much defined laundry by "cycles". That is one chooses what one is going to launder (cottons, delicates,woolens, proofing, starching, denim, etc...), and the machine goes about it's business using pre-set programmes. This is pretty much the way many modern commercial washing machines work, except that the user programmes the cycles to suit themselves.

"Extras" are just that, items formally having separate buttons on the 1900 series such as: extra rinse, sensitive, gentle wash action, etc. Again not all options are on all machines, but you should get the picture.

Regarding "what was Miele thinking" by introducing these...

cimberlie,

I agree with much of what you say regarding the market they viewed as their target for this machine. The machine also seems simple to operate, and doesn't require a PhD in laundry science. The control panel is nicely organized, and not a sea of buttons and dials all over the place as you see in some competitive products. If it works out as expected, the beauty is that the laundry PhD is there but built into the machine's hardware/software.

With regard to the statement that Miele USA says it hasn't be officially released and that dealers are showing and selling it prior to release. It doesn't really matter, but when authentic Miele company owned and operated showrooms have the machines in plain sight, with trained advisors armed with glossy literature, well ... it's hard to believe that Miele hasn't "officially" released the product or srongly intended it to be seen by any average joe walking in off the street. If someone in NJ can't believe it, this is a corporate case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Not really a problem as it will all shake out over the next several weeks.

My local dealer was ready to deliver the new machine to me last week. Even if it's not officially available, it's still making its way into consumer's hands.

Cimberlie, the 4000 series in the UK are 6kg capacity 240V models and not at all the same machines as the new 120V 4.0 cuft. 48XX available in the US. It's likely that the cycles will be quite different on the 48XX.

They're not the same machines, but the method of control is very similar - which was Cimberlie's point.

Jon

I understand Cimberlie's point, and it was well taken. All I'm saying is that it's premature to say that the cycles or selection options may be equivalent -- the US models most likely contain completely different programming based on US market research combined with hardware differences. It's just too early to know or draw any conclusions unless someone has an actual 4800/4840 manual.

The new models are up on the Miele US site, along with installation specifications, but no downloadable manual or brochure.

I heard from Miele today.

cut and paste:

"Dear Sir:

The new Super Large Capacity washers do not have a 2 hour soak option. That is an error on our web site and I will get that corrected. I have attached another copy of the operating manual for the W 4840. "

Use and installation manuals are now on the website.

Looks like it should be possible to fake out a profile wash several different ways.

1) Says you can change the temp of a cycle within the first 6 minutes. Depending on the cycle, start it cold and switch to hot.

2) Only turn on the cold tap...Although it says it will put up a error message if water doesn't come through a line, the manual also says it will switch to cold water fill only if it senses no hot water pressure for several minutes.

3) Manual gives directions for setting up the machine with cold fill only by using a Y adapter to feed cold to both the hot and cold inlets.

For $1800 it really should have a profile wash cycle, but atleast it doesn't sound difficult to fake it out.

I've had the Bosch Axxis+ (2460) washer & Axxis (3510) dryer for 4 four years and want to get larger capacity now. Looking at either the Bosch 700 or new Miele 4840. I know Miele is supposed to be better quality, but I don't understand why there's no profile wash and why a 4.0 capacity washer would recommend you not wash a comforter that's bigger than full size. I have a king and really want to be able to wash it. Is that just a cover-their-butt recommendation? It's in the user's manual. I'm glad there appears to be a pretty simple way to 'trick' it into a profile (changing temp within first 6 minutes) but of course I'd prefer not to have to do that. I guess you wouldn't really use a profile wash that often, though. The Bosch 700 manual actually says they recommend you ONLY use the power wash (profile) on the cotton/normal program and not to use it with other cycles.

sarahw, was that manual in PDF format? Mind posting it somewhere so we can all download and have a look?

I wonder, if the Extended option might give you something like a profile wash. Maybe it's lowering the initial water intake temp - similar to the Kenmore HExT's where "Stain Treat" lowers the intake temp to warm and then heats to hot/very hot. Just a guess, though.

I, too, don't quite understand, why Bosch seems to limit Power Wash to the Cottons cycle. "The Power Wash option is recommended for use ONLY for heavily soiled clothes that require the removal of tough, ground-in protein-based stains. It is NOT recommended to use the Power Wash option with other cycles when laundering normal or lightly soiled clothes." That seems a little strange to me.

sshrivastava, you can download the manuals from the Miele homepage.

Here's the link

HTH, Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele - Manuals

The new Miele washers "can" perform a "profile" wash without having to "trick" the machine into doing so. The washer can be hooked up to "cold" water only by using a "y" adaptor as stated in the owners manual. If you review the owners manual it "clearly" outlines the procedure. This is the same procedure listed in the smaller 5 & 6 kilo Miele machines. Nothing has changed....

Byron

Well, these new Super Large Capacity machines have a weaker heater (110 volts) AND use more water due to the larger capacity - so one has to expect longer (probably much longer) cycle times, if the unit is connected to cold water only.

Alex

What voltage heater did the earlier machines have?

I have one of the older Miele washers. W1986 from 2003. I think heater is at least 2000+ watts

It has the heavy soil option which is a prewash. I use this when I have oily stains, chocolate, grass, blood,wine, ground in dirt in white socks.etc. The machine starts with a cold fill and gradually heats the water. Then the water is drained and water is taken in for the wash. My machine is conntected to both hot and cold water and can heat to almost 200 very fast, but it doesn't...it gradually raises the temperature throughout the cycle.

If the clothes are very dirty I use heavy soil with extended which increases the time for every phase of the cycle.

I put the dirty clothes in and they come out clean. There is nothing in the manual or on the machine that says it has a profile wash...so I am wondering...as long as the very dirty clothes come out very clean...what is the difference what method is used and what the method is called?

I used to use the extended option for dirty whites, but during last year I decided to skip this. I found that for most loads the machine washes whites very well with a temp of 120 or 140 without the extended period( I will use a higher temp if I want an extra santized boost. Of course 120 does not sanitize but I think the newer ones will let you use bleach if you want to... right?

Askos have what's called an "enzyme step" in the normal and heavy cycles. Although all modes which are fed cold water and heat to a specific temperature are by their very nature "profile" washes, the normal and heavy cycles actually linger for 45 minutes in the 105-120 degree range to give enzymes time to do their work in their optimum temperature range. I would assume the smaller Mieles probably function in a similar fashion.

Whirlpool, thanks for the link -- last time I checked the Miele site the manuals weren't up yet. I see now that they are! From my read of the manual, although it does not specifically mention a "profile wash", the ability to connect it in a cold water-only situation with a Y-adapter on the hose tells me the unit will perform a profile wash if it only has cold water available. The heated cycles obviously are temperature-based rather than timer-based, which is a good thing.

Looks like the maximum temperature is 158ºF for the sanitize cycle, which is lower than Bosch's 170ºF sanitize option.

Spoke to a dealer today. He quoted 1800.00 for the 4840 washer and 1200.00 for the electric dryer. The stands were 279.00 each and delivery & installation by a Miele authorized installer was 150.00 with stands, 100.00 without.

The dealer called the Miele distributor who said they were expecting to have the machines ready to ship to dealers by Feb 15.

Just go out and buy a machine already!

Jeesh!

Bite me.

Paralysis by over-analysis!

You do have a point. :-)

Miele now has a Press Release concerning its new laundry line available on its new homepage.

Pretty interesting: the out-of-balance sensor can also sense, if there's a pet trapped in the drum. They've also incorporated the European SpinCleanâ¢, which temporarily speeds up the drum if one is washing big loads. (In the video the washer has been tricked into thinking it's washing a big load by opening the door after the load-sensing process has finished.)

The Canadian website lists the dryer as 6.36 cu.ft.

Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: Pressroom

Washer looks great---Don't need it.. but I do need a new dryer. The press release mentions a gas dryer, but I don't see one on any web site. Any one know when(if) the gas dryer will be availalbe?

Our 4840 was delivered yesterday (Jan 30). We are doing our first loads tonight. So far, I am impressed. This is the first Front Loader for us and it is very quiet.

However, I am confused about the temperature of the wash. I just finished a load that was set on Delicate. The display indicated that this would be a cold wash. However, when I took the clothes out, they felt hot. We have the washer hooked up to both hot and cold water. What temperature is the rinse cycle? Anybody with the other models have any feedback?

I noticed with my Asko that even though I had a cold rinse, clothes come out warm. I think this may be due to heat generated during the high speed spin -- I'm not sure about the physics here, but it makes sense that such high RPM spin speeds could create some heat.

It could also be that the cold water inlet hose is connected to the hot water tap and vice versa. That way you would be getting hot instead of a cold rinses.

Yes, the water hoses were connected to the wrong outlet. Should be doing more wash this weekend with more accurate results ;) Can't blame the installers, though. I think our water outlets are opposite most other outlets and the old hoses were not marked. Thanks!

Wife and I purchased the W4840 washer, T9800 dryer and 2 WTV430 stands. Delivery was 02/02/07. The washer's cycles do seem to on the long side but it is fairly quite. The dryer on the other hand sounds like a frieght train. We can't hear the washer end of cylce buzzer when dryer is running. We have to ensure that the door is closed to laundry room so we can hear the T.V. We still could hear the dryer going.

Tech came out same evening, he spent some time on the phone with Miele rep and was informed that all is well. The tech had to leave the laundry room to talk on his cell phone because the dryer is so noisey.

Today I went to the dealer and informed him I did not spend $3,782.95 to have a noisey dryer included in my new laundry system. He will be getting together with a Miele rep this coming week.

My Asko dryer is pretty noisy too -- I shut the door to my laundry room, problem solved. Was there a noise or db rating to the dryer? Maybe it's just me, but noise is an important issue for things like dishwashers, but for dryers?

sshrivastava,

Do you have an air inlet to your laundry room besides it's door? Dryers consume 100 to 150 cubic feet of air per minute while running. Dryers need fuel (electricity or gas) and lots of air to operate.

Dealer telephoned me yesterday, said Miele rep insists that the new T9800 dryer will be noisier then other models and I would have to put up with it.

I started the dryer while the dealer was on the phone and even he could not believe the noise it makes. I went to the far end of my house, 60ft away and he could still here it, that is 5 rooms away. He appologized and said I can swap the Miele's out with a different manufacturer and he will give back the price difference.

We purchased the Miele because of supposedly build quality and thier reputation. But if they refuse to take a look at my problem and use the standard "thats how it is supposed to be" mentality then thier warrenty is useless.

this seems to be an offshoot of the "my DW makes too much noise " thread. any large capacity dryer is moving alot of air that will make some noise

my only advice is to make sure that the vent is direct outside the house and that interior ducting is at a minimum

I don't remember Miele listing any db rating for their dryers, or making any claim they were quiet on their website or literature. Even so, you have a right to believe that the Miele reputation for quality and design excellence should equate to a higher standard than what you've experienced.

Bosch seems to be a vendor who lists noise rating for their dryers at 67db. Of course no standard exists on the spec for measuring dryer noise so even there a rating isn't 100% useful.

Miele will no doubt address this issue in future iterations of the dryer, but it sounds like your dealer is giving you a very easy way to solve the problem.

Very bizarre, seeming as their European dryers are almost silent, considerably more quiet than my AEG and Bosch dryers.

Jon

Is it possible you just got a bad one? Does the dealer have another one you could compare it too?

gordonr are you sure its 67db for a Bosch? Im just asking because I am a computer enthusiast and I use a lot of high performance CPU fans and 67DB is almost ear busting loud over an extended period of time.

All the super capacity Maytags I owned have been very quiet and I just cant understand how large capacity should equate to very loud.

fordtech,

67db is what Bosch lists in their specs for all of the current generation Nexxt dryers. As mentioned earlier, there is no standard for how Bosch or anyone else comes up with a sound measurement, so it's hard to equate 67db with anything else. Unlike a computer, the makers don't expect someone to be sitting next to the dryer trying to work or watch TV.

I am inclined to think something is wrong with your dryer, but if Miele insists there is nothing wrong, then getting a replacement from them will be next to impossible. If the tech couldn't find a problem with the unit, that's two strikes.

I think your dealer is giving you a good way out. You're obviously not happy, and to be frank these are brand new 1st generation machines for Miele, so they are bound to have some teething issues and kinks that need to be worked out. It's not fun being an early adopter -- I ran out to buy a PS3 and now I'm waiting for games!

Get something else, perhaps a Bosch. You'll be happier.

Miele has manuals out for the new units:

W4800 washer:
http://www.miele.com/manuals/download.asp?pathvar=X:\manuals\Residential\Washers\W4800_us.pdf&filevar=W4800_us.pdf

W4840 washer:
http://www.miele.com/manuals/download.asp?pathvar=X:\manuals\Residential\Washers\W4840_us.pdf&filevar=W4840_us.pdf

T9800 dryer:
http://www.miele.com/manuals/download.asp?pathvar=X:\manuals\Residential\Dryers\T9800_us.pdf&filevar=T9800_us.pdf

Mine have delivery scheduled for tomorrow. I'll post follow-up once I've had a chance to run them a bit.

Stopped by our local appliance dealer today to take some measurements of the W4840 and Bosch Nexxt 500 in planning our laundry room renovation. Was talking with our sales person about the W4840/T9800. They have sold and delivered several so far, but hasn't heard any feedback about the dryer being unusually loud. He said his far and away #1 sales issue with the new machines has been the direction that the doors open (opposite to virtually every other big home machine in the market).

Quote:
"He said his far and away #1 sales issue with the new machines has been the direction that the doors open (opposite to virtually every other big home machine in the market)."

FWIW:

Miele (porthole) washers have always opened to the right (facing the unit). The only exception has been their integrated washers (example model w1930). With this model you can choose a left or right hinged unit as well as the dryer.

I own quite a number of front load washer/dryer sets. Some of the doors swing to the right, others to te left. Some place the dispenser on the right or left. Also, the program knob position can vary. For example.. My Asko 20004 (circa 1993) has the dispener on the right. However in subsequent models the dispenser was placed on the left. Another example: My AEG has the dispenser on the left (like my other Mieles) but in Europe I've seen units with dispenser on the right. I guess it's really up to the manufacture or a question of what consumers are used to using.

I see there have been issues with the new dryer. Can some of you comment on the washers performance.

Thanks

True AEG's had the dispenser drawer on the right. AEG's now, are just glorified Zanussi-Electroluxes.

I have been hearing a lot of problems regarding the noise level for the Miele and Asko dryers. I too have a Asko that was pretty loud but was able to solve the problem.

Since most new large capacity systems have much more air flow it is typical that your systems will be much louder. Due to reduced energy usage, many manufactures have increased the air flow to compensate for the decreased heating.

What you want to do is to use a solid type venting instead of your standard accordion venting. Due to the massive air movement the accordion type venting is less stable and creates much more friction, which results in "more" noise.

Believe me with the proper type of venting the problem should be resolved in all cases. Just go to your local hardware store and you should be fine.

The W4840 washer cleans beautifully and spins without much vibration. From 10 feet away, you can barely even tell that it is running unless the drain pump is running. Even with the drain pump running, it is still much quieter than my old GE toploader.

The T9800 electric dryer does move at least 2x the air volume of my GE dryer. (Though that isn't a scientific number, just my estimation based feeling the air coming out of the back of the units) While the fan is a bit louder than I would have liked, it really does a good job of drying my clothes without cooking them to death. And, still, the fan is quieter than either my old GE washer or dryer. The sound is an acceptable "wooshing" noise instead of the rather grating motor noise than my old GE made.

I should note that my "old" GE units are less than a year old, on loan from my parents, as they were between houses and their temporary rental came with units.

I stopped by a local appliance store last week to look at washers and dryers. They stopped selling the new Miele machines. I was told three out of four washers failed and the dryers are 'noisy'. They are still selling other Miele models, but don't plan on selling the new ones until they understand what, if anything, is wrong. They believe something is not right, but Miele is not admitting anything.

Regards,

Rich

I'd be curious to know which is the local appliance store that has stopped selling the new Mieles. That sounds rather extreme and it seems like there is always so much hearsay around here.

It's easy for a salesperson to bad mouth a product he no longer sells, and 3 out of 4 failures seems like a huge misstatement. I honestly don't believe Miele would introduce such a flawed product into the market -- engineering is their strong suit, and they would have designed the hell out of this thing.

The dryer noise may be due to the increased volume of air. I've read somewhere that Asko dryers blow out a lot of CFM compared to other dryers, which coincides with it being louder. The noise seems to be concentrated at the back of the unit, which does coincide with venting.

Honestly, I'd rather have a noisier dryer that blows like a mofo to get my clothes dry while using less heat. Baking your clothes ruins them and renders them harsh to the touch. You always want some small bit of moisture in your clothes at the end of a dryer cycle to keep them soft.

Inspite of the best engineering and intents, problems still come up and from the most reputable companies. If there is a problem, it takes a while before engineering has enough data to figure out the root cause of the failure. Early adopters sometimes are inconvienienced as a result. The important thing to watch is how the company reacts and addresses the customer. If some problem does exist, I'd hope Miele would take care of things with a high degree of integrity.

Once heard an example of this type of thing from a truely great German company called Viessmann (they make boilers for HVAC). They found an engineering problem with one of their systems which had yet to cause a failure in the field. Whether people were still under warranty or not, they sent people to implement a fix because they didn't want their customers to have any problems. No government required recall, no consumer outrage, no one even knew there was a problem. They just did it because they knew it was the right thing to do, and it's what customers expect of Viessmann.

strider - What kind of vent pipe are you using on your new dryer?

I am in the market for a new gas dryer. Haven't decided on which one yet but have looked at Whirlpool since I have one but this new one is kind of full of plastic and I don't like the looks of it. I have a 6K Miele washer and was looking at the new large dryer. I downloaded the advertizing(no technical specs just the glitz) brochure which mentions the new Miele aerodymaic filter technology found on this larger model that keeps drying consistency and reduces total dry time using a continuous flow of air.

Perhaps this is why there is more of an air sound in the dryer than found in others.