I hope you mean 36" super susan?

Your island is a barrier between sink and fridge...But maybe you know that from previous discussions about your layout.

Do you plan a trash pullout or is it going under the sink?

Have you mapped out where everything will go? Particularly to the left of the range, will 1 bank of 36" drawers serve you better than 2 of 18"? (for pots and pans?) And maybe also on the right of the sink if your dishes will be in those drawers?

Is there enough space between that last 18" cab and your table? It doesn't look to be more than 15". I'm not a particularly wide person, but that would be a hip banger.

Rhome - You are correct about the Super Susan - it should be 36". We did slide the fridge over so it is front of the walkway rather than behind the island (it used to be where the pantry is), but you are right that the island is still between the fridge and the sink. I wish we had more space, but I really want/need the island so I think I have to live with the barrier.

I was planning to put the pots and pans in an upper cabinet to the left of the range. This is mainly because I will be the only one using them and it might help to have kids snacks/breads/cereal in the lower drawers. Your point is still good though. No matter what I store there, a larger drawer probably would be more helpful.

I was planning to put my dishes in the 24" drawer in the island. Given your other point though, I could move the trash to the 18" bank in the island, and do a single 36" drawer to the right of the sink. That would move the dishes closer to the table, and would look cleaner (fewer drawers.)

Wow - two great suggestions I hadn't thought of already! You're good!

Laxsupermom - It isn't as tight as I first drew it - I've update the picture to better reflect. This actually is the current space and we all fit OK. Sorry, I assumed that space was OK and just put the table there to let you know we have a space to sit to eat!

On a related note though, how close to the edge of the wall-opening or window do the cabinets usually run? For example, on the range wall, there is about 6" between the end of the base cabinets and the DR opening. On the sink wall however, the cabinets run to where the bay window bumps out. Also, the KD has our upper cabs running right up to the window trim. I'm thinking there should be some wall between the cabs and the windows, and at either end of the base cabs run. Thoughts?

Updated with above changes for any other comments:

Thanks!
Tara

I like to see some wall between cabinets and any door or window trim...So like the 6" gap by the doorway, but not the 0" gap around the window. Otherwise, I think it looks like you just shoved in as many cabinets as you could without respect to design and visual comfort. Some blank space gives the eye a rest and lets you focus on things like windows. I can't completely explain it...

If the bay doesn't have trim right there, but the wall just changes planes, I think it's OK to run the counter up to the edge.

I think this might be a bit more workable. It's nice to have your sink in fornt of a window but it's nicer to be able to move easily and efficiently.

{{!gwi}}

NO landing space on the other side of the sink there, sailormann, but you've got the right idea. What that island needs is a prep sink. Keep the cleanup sink by the window, and you've doubled the function of the kitchen very easily. You also want at least one base cabinet that's not a drawer that has adjustible shelving so you can fit in those odd sized things that just are too tall for drawers. I'd also put the cabinet with the MW drawer on the side facing the fridge. As it is now, the snackers will be right in your way when you're trying to cook dinner. Keep the trash to the other side of the sink from the DW, not on the island.

What about your uppers? You don't show those.

Good point, live_wire, about not seeing the uppers. Tsherman, I'm having a problem envisioning this kitchen since the drawing is out of proportion. The 24" cabinet should look square if it is also the standard 24" deep. I don't really know how wide your aisles are. This drawing is not necessarily a bad way to sort out where you want your base cabinets, but it doesn't assure me that you've measured carefully. I wouldn't order cabinets from something drawn out of proportion; how can you be sure everything will really fit, or how things will really line up? Just a thought -- maybe you've explained this somewhere above and I missed it.
I like the cleanup sink by the window -- I love nice big islands for spreading out my prep work! Will you have seating at your island, tsherman?

I'm confused. If understand the concern with the main sink under the window, it is that the island is between the sink and the fridge. How does moving the sink to the island addresses that? Isn't it odd to have 2 sinks across from each other?

I apologize for my drawing (and thank you for putting up with my efforts!) I have measured (as did the KD), but I did this drawing in xls and as you said the proportions are not accurate. I guess I need to go back to the graph paper! I didn't add the uppers because the lowers keep changing so much and I thought it was best to focus on that. The uppers run all along the 2 walls (over the range and on both sides of the window.) The KD has measured, I am just not happy with what they've come up with and I don't have a copy of their drawing - that's another story.

The island will not have seating. The kitchen table is right next to it and I'd prefer a more open feel rather than walking into the stools (that I will constantly be pushing in.) We've had islands with seating before and although our stools were really comfortable, no one ever sat there (maybe we are weird!) I was hoping the island would be prep space, and a big serving/gathering space when we entertain.

That's a good point about a few doors rather than drawers. We do have the 2 36" cabinets on the outside of the island. Do you think that's enough?

Hi there, Tsherman. When I did my kitchen drawings in Excel 2003, I set the row height to 25 and the column width to 4.29. That gives you squares (or at least pretty close to it) in your grid; each "square" is 2' long and 2' wide. That way you can make your drawing true to your measurements. But if you have a KD, never mind, that person probably has a proportioned drawing somewhere, and as long as you have that to look at before ordering, it should be ok.

I'm not trying to be nit-picky, but if we can see a properly proportioned drawing, you will get better advice...it will show the cabs in their proper proportion and location...you might not have as much of a barrier-island problem as it appears, for example.

Happy day to you!
Chris

Chris, thanks for your xls tip. I did it, and things look more accurate now. Last time I copied/pasted into ppt and saved it as a gif, but that distorted the image. Any thoughts on how to post a xls sheet?

Here's what I do (I think...I abandoned my design a few months back when the economy started getting scary)...In Excel, copy the drawing (use my mouse in selection mode to select everything I want by drawing a big selection box around it, then hit Ctrl-C), open up a new Paint document, paste, and save as a JPEG.

Then I upload the JPEG to photobucket, and you probably know the rest from there, since it appears you use photobucket.

Good luck!

You don't have to have a prep sink at all unless you want one. Sailorman suggested moving the cleanup sink to the island because its closer to the ref. Range to sink and Ref to sink are critical to how a kitchen functions because they are frequently walked.

People are concerned because the ref is around the corner and far from a sink (think its at least 16 feet one way). So everybody is suggesting to do something about the sink position or add a sink.

Guessing from the cabinet measurements, I think your island could up up to two feet longer. This would allow you to have a nice eight foot long island with the sink and dw and trash in it and maybe an 15" drawer or door unit. You would have 8 feet of the one foot deep cabinets or a single seater stool.

This would change the outside wall configuration - like have a 30" drawer base with micro, range, 15" pullout or drawers, 36" super susan, and up to 3 36" drawer units and a 30" drawer unit on the back wall. (There rather disguised hints in there that the pullout and super susan would be perhaps difficult to access and that the micro might be better off in a place where it didn't face another major appliance and was closer to the range and ref).

From a kitchen users perspective it's really a case of figuring out where you want to chop and how far you want to walk! There isn't much difference between prepping between the sink and the range on the outside and the sink and the range on the extended island except for steps to the ref.

Thanks for the additional feedback. You've given me a lot to think about.

I did get my hands on the KD's layout (below.) Although this doesn't reflect the latest changes, it is to scale! The changes that aren't reflected are the cabinets in the bottom right corner will only be 12" deep and the wall next to it will also be shallower. The opening on the right wall will be closer to the two cabinets. The MW in the island will be in the corner rather than the center of the island (although the location is open for discussion.)

The KD is a big fan of the angled cabinets, he says they open up the room. I'm not sure I like how they look though and I feel like I'm loosing space. I was planning on changing to standard right angled cabinets but I'm interested in other's opinions.

I don't think I can extend the island further as it will visually "block" the entrance into the room. This is a little clearer on the KD's layout.

I like the idea of the MW next to the range, but if I do that, either the range will be off center or I loose 6" of storage for a filler. Will it look goofy to be off center?

Hi, Tara.

As you already know, this is very similar to my new layout except my oven is where your fridge is. I love my new layout and it works well.

Good luck - Anita

Or maybe ....

{{!gwi}}

Ok, next subject to think about.

The KD's drawing is a cabinet plan and doesn't show the countertops. On this plan, it shows about 30" between the sink and island in places and maybe 33" in others. The problem is that counters overhang the cabinets by about 1.5" on each side, so the counters will make the aisle clearance actually 27" to 30" - which is very, very small. It's small enough to be concerned about the door size of a tall tub dishwasher when open, cause the aisle might not be wide enough to open the door.

You might do a 30" wide island with a 33-34" wide top instead of the scheduled 42" wide island with a 45" wide top. You might be able to kick it a bit towards washer wall. If its set back because you were thinking of stools, you don't really have exactly enough aisle width everything unless the cabinetry is reduced to 30" in depth.

On the range side, it starts off being 39 to the range and 42" to the rest of the range wall cabinets. It will end up being 39" narrowing to 37.5" at the range. You might want to try that out in advance - you might find it difficult stand in front of an open oven door to get stuff out of the oven. Some people like it, but they generally have cooktops and not ranges.

You do have an extra foot in length right now, it's just being used by decorative legs.

I don't have an opinion about angled cabinets opening up the room. But I would not be pleased with no place to store pots in a very open-looking room.

Bmorepanic - wow, now I'm freaked out! We did try taping off the space to get a feel for the layout, and it seemed OK. Maybe we should do it again with the countertop overhang, and large sheets of cardboard on the existing island to get a better feel for where the space is vertically. I do think the island could be pushed back towards the washer/dryer wall about 12" so that would help. I am also thinking that the trim pieces on the island need to be smaller. At the same time, I just measured our current layout and we have about 39" and it works fine. The extra 12" on the island will be on the fridge side so I think it will work out. Again, I'll go get the tape and try living with it for awhile.

Sailormann - your appliance placement is similar to my current layout, my refrigerator is just on the end of the run. It does work pretty well except the counter space to either side of the range isn't large enough for prep, so I end up prepping on the island. The other issue was purely form - the opening to the DR feels very closed in with the appliance right there, and it doesn't look very nice from the FR. Every designer we met with mentioned that there is no focal point. From the picture it looks like the sink wall is the focal point, and you do see this as you walk into the kitchen, but from the table and from the FR you stare at (what in the KD layout) is the range wall.

Thank you for your comment on the angled walls. Point taken. ;)

I read your post last night (Wednesday) and did not reply; then I thought about it. The layout you proposed is very similar to the layout of my BIL & SIL's kitchen. Your kitchen may be slightly bigger. The flow does not work well because of the placement of the sink/frig/stove. As you know EVERYONE gathers in the kitchen. With 4 adults & 2 kids we are all in each other's way. I came back today to suggest exactly what sailormann did - create a "tighter" work triangle to avoid that flow issue. Sailormann was good enough to actually put this in a pic/drawing for you which is really great. I strongly suggest you adopt this layout - I know from my house, my friend's houses, and in this particular case - my BIL & SIL;s house - with the island in the center you have a natural gathering spot, and with the frig on the other side it will cause an issue with flow. You want everyone to enjoy & love your new kitchen & not be in the way!

Good luck.

Hi, Tsherman. I searched for this thread because the last time I checked, sailormann had posted a version with the oven on the sink wall and I thought "YES! That is the answer" and I was interested to see what you thought of it.

As we've mentioned before, your proposed layout is very similar to my old layout except that you have a longer sink run. I never could have fit my oven on my sink wall like that, but for your kitchen I think that is genius.

One of the changes I'm really glad about in my new kitchen is not having the refrigerator on the opposite wall as the sink around the island. It was okay but not nearly as convenient as my placement is now (which is similar to sailormann's version for you). And it became considerably more inconvenient when I had more people over because the only place for them to stand was along that wall where my fridge and oven were -- always people in the work "triangle" ew.

(For my kitchen, having the oven there works fine except at Xmas when I have tons of people here AND I'm using the oven a lot. Otherwise, just for family, not a problem).

So I'm highly recommending sailormann's layout as well. I get what you're saying about the focal point...I bet you could get clever, creative GWers to help you with that.

Good luck, Anita