3 ton versus 4 ton is a huge difference. What is the size of the current system and how well does it function? A Manual J heat gain/loss calculation done by the contractor is the proper way to size the system.

Don't know what's wrong with the old system, just walked past the thermostat the other day and noticed it was flashing as if the air was on, went outside, did not hear the unit on, no air flowing. Tried to switch it to fan, nothing happened. Not sure of the size of the old system. The sun baked the specs off the unit. It's about 20 years old. Never worked great. The back bedrooms of the house never felt much air flow. Always assumed(I know, bad word!)there was a problem with the duct work. Thermostat set at 80 in the summer, unit would come on and run constantly while the indoor temp would rise to 86. Salesmen are blaming that on the fact that the return is only 14 inches. The house is a 50yr old ranch, single story, 10 dual paned windows, 2 dual paned sliders. Will be insulating the attic (currently r11/13) to r38 and the walls which are currently uninsulated to r13 as soon as a new unit is installed. I called the Trane rep back and told him I was concerned he was oversizing the unit. When he came for the initial bid, he did not get on the roof, did not look in the attic, did not walk around the house except to look at the return. He called me back with a bid on a 3ton/14SEER for 9,300. I then called the guy who wanted to sell me a Goodman and asked him to work up a quote for an American Standard 3ton/14SEER so I can compare. (since I found out from these forums they're the same company) I thought it was odd that the Trane rep only sells Trane and York, but not American Standard. The second rep at least a little more thorough on his first visit, but neither has done a manual J. Sounds like it's hard to get someone to do those. Really confused about the high prices, these forums have a lot of quotes for bigger units less than 10k. Is it just because it's CA? Thanks for replying!

Sounds like the lack of insulation is a major part of your lack of cooling while the system was functional. You can't be guessing at the size of the unit that you need. A Manual J needs to be performed.

Different parts of the country have different labor rates and equipment mark-up (300%). The time of year also impacts the price (heating/cooling season).

The best thing to do is to get as many quotes as you can. The more quotes you get, the more educated you become. It will be a learning experience, sometimes frustrating, but well worth it in the long run so you get the best system at a fair price.

Where is the air handler? Hopefully not in the poorly insulated attic. How large is the house?

Need model numbers of condensing unit (outside) and air handler (inside) for better info.

Embarrassed to say what's an air handler? There's a unit on the roof, if it's separate than that, yes it's in the attic. The house is just under 1500sq ft. The model numbers on the old unit are baked off from the sun. What causes the lack of air flow to the back rooms?

Gal:

The air handler is a "cabinet" where the air condonditing coil and the blower fan that feeds the ductwork are located. Your filter should be there also. A dirty filter or dirty coil in the air handler will reduce air flow. Your condensing unit (compressor and another coil) is what is located on your rooftop. Don't feel embarrassed - you are educating yourself.

An air handler in an attic can have problems due to the intense summer heat in the attic. With poor attic insulation, your air handler is in pain. Insulating the attic should be your #1 priority. Additionally, you need to get your attic ductwork inspected for leaks. A leaking return duct in the attic can introduce hot, unconditioned air into the system. A leaking supply duct in the attic will waste cool, conditioned air into the attic space (and may starve other areas of air). You may have both of these occurring in your case.

Is this a heat pump or straight air conditioning?

Need model #s of suggested new condenser and air handler for better info.

The air handler must be in the attic. Wasn't aware there is a filter that has to be changed up there. Have only known to keep the return filter in the hallway ceiling changed. Ouch!
Insulating the attic is my #1 priority, that's how this whole thing got started. Already have bids and have chosen a contractor for that, but figured it made sense to have it done afterwards since they'll be climbing around in the attic for the HVAC.
All the ductwork will have to be inspected/tested per CA laws once the new system is in place. As far as the return duct, both contractors say it's too small, only 14 inches they want to increase it to 16. Gave me an example of trying to breathe from a straw.
The only model numbers I have is for the package unit they intend to put on the roof.
Trane XL14c 3ton/14SEER 80%AFUE (don't have any info on the EER. Now the bid on that one is down to 9,425. plus a 400. rebate from Trane. Comes with lifetime parts warranty, first 3 years of maint. free as long as we have them out to check it every 6 months. Bid does not include any additional duct work other than increasing the size of the return.
American Standard model is 4YCY4 3ton/14SEER EER12 for 9,995. 10yr warranty on parts and labor, 20yr parts on the heat exchanger. This unit qualifies for a 300. CA tax credit because of the 14SEER/EER12. Also he will include any necessary changes in ductwork in the price.
The heat pump or straight air conditioning question...you got me there. It's a combined unit on the roof. Natural gas heat and electric air. Does that answer it? What can I say I'm blonde!

"Wasn't aware there is a filter that has to be changed up there. Have only known to keep the return filter in the hallway ceiling changed. Ouch!"

- There could just be the one filter in the hallway ceiling as this is more accessible than the attic.


"All the ductwork will have to be inspected/tested per CA laws once the new system is in place"

- No. The ductwork in the attic must be inspected by the HVAC contractor before the new system goes in so that you guarantee yourself a good install.

The Model# 4YCY4 is a straight air conditioner from Trane and American Standard, same company. They are quoting you an 80% efficient gas furnace which means that 20% of the natural gas is wasted. You might want to look at a higher efficiency gas furnace as natural gas prices aren't as cheap as they used to be. This depends on how often you use your heat. What kind of winter temperatures do you get in the area where you live?

I think that your electricity is very expensive in CA.

"What can I say I'm blonde!"
- Blonde, brunette, red-head. Doesn't matter. HVAC is a learning experience and you are educating yourself. Aren't most CA women blondes, either natural or self-made?

Gal:

I did a little more checking and you have what is called a "packaged system" instead of a "split system". You do not have a separate air handler in the attic. Your whole system (a/c coils, compressor, gas furnace, blower fan) is packaged in one box that sits on the roof. The XL14c electric/gas unit comes with the 80% efficient gas furnace.

galfriday: The Trane RTU he's giving you is a residential model version which would mean higher Eff and quieter operation. The Unit is costing him no more than $3800 Im sure but then you have to worry about getting it up to the rooftop. Which would be getting most likey a crane to take the old one off and put the new one in it's place. Also how many stories will they have to go up? That can cost more than the unit itself. Then the ductwork will most likey have to be modified.

I'm guessing they gave you a price between 12k-15K. They aren't over charging you. Even if you are in California.

"I'm guessing they gave you a price between 12k-15K"

- "Trane XL14c 3ton/14SEER 80%AFUE (don't have any info on the EER. Now the bid on that one is down to 9,425. plus a 400. rebate from Trane."

"Also how many stories will they have to go up? That can cost more than the unit itself."

- "The house is a 50yr old ranch, single story..."

"I'm guessing they gave you a price between 12k-15K. They aren't over charging you. Even if you are in California"

- For a unit that costs no more than $3800 per your estimate and a crane rental that I estimate at $500, her price of $9425 includes $5100 in labor, profit, and overhead for the Trane supplier. Using your $12k - $15k guess, the figures would be $7100 and $10,100 in labor, profit, and overhead, which is not only insane but a downright rip-off to the customer. "Overcharging" is a relative term.

The day someone makes $5100 to $10,100 in labor, profit, and overhead off me is the day that I'm dead and my wife is spending that kind of money because she doesn't know any better.

I just had a new Goodman 3-ton, 14 SEER, split-system heat pump installed for $3800. Bought it myself and paid a pro to install it. Saved $2k over brands X,Y, and Z.

Take care.

"The day someone makes $5100 to $10,100 in labor, profit, and overhead off me is the day that I'm dead and my wife is spending that kind of money because she doesn't know any better."

Rigging for $500. IF you had a driveway or back yard access, perhaps. For all I know this person could of had penthouse condo on the 5th floor. In that case my #'s were accurate.

Have been busy getting bids! Six in 1 week! (not really how I planned on spending my vacation)
The first Trane dealer is definitely out. He's the one who wanted to sell me an $11k 4 ton unit based on "rule of thumb" sq ft calculations, never climbed on my roof to see what he was replacing or looked in my attic to see the existing ductwork. No matter what the price, he's an idiot!
So here's what I'm comparing now:

Rheem 3 Ton 1 stage cooling & heat Variable drive
Model #RRPLB036JK08X
AFUE: 80 EER: 12 SEER: 14
Enlarge existing return
Use existing R4 flex ducts straighten and restrap
Add Honeywell 6000 Thermostat (5yr warranty)
Add Honeywell Media Filter
Warranty:
5yr parts/1yr labor
10yr compressor/5yr coil
Lifetime heat exchanger
BID: $6190.00
- 175.00 utility rebate
- 300.00 tax credit
NET COST: $5715.00

Trane 3 Ton 2 stage heat 1 stage cooling Variable drive
Model #4CY4036A1075AA (?not a legitimate Trane#?)
AFUE: 80 EER: 11.6 SEER: 14
Enlarge existing return
Use existing R4 flex ducts straighten and restrap
Add Trane Comfort Stat XL800 (5yr warranty)
Regular Filters
Warranty:
5yr parts/1yr labor
10yr compressor/10 yr coil
20yr heat exchanger
BID: $8190.00
- 400.00 Trane rebate
- 175.00 utility rebate
NET COST: $7615.00

American Standard 3 Ton 2 stage Variable drive
Model #4YCY4036A1075A (hmm, looks like the Trane# minus a Y)
AFUE: 79.5 EER: 11.6 SEER: 14.20
Enlarge existing return 20x25
Replace ducts with R6 silver jacket
Add VisionPro 3H2C Thermostat
Regular Filters
Warranty:
10yr parts/10yr labor
10yr compressor/10yr condenser(is "condenser" same as "coil"?)
20yr heat exchanger
BID: $9363.81
- 875.00 utility rebate w/new ducts
NET COST: $8488.81

American Standard (same model as above)
except:
Leave existing 14 in. return but add another one the same size
Add 3 more supplies (LR, Mstr Bdrm, Lndry Rm)
Replace all ducts with R6 silver jacket
Use existing LUX 7 day thermostat
Regular filters (x2)
Warranty:
5yr parts/1yr labor
10yr compressor/10 yr condenser
20yr heat exchanger
BID: $9720.00
- 875.00 utility rebate w/new ducts
NET COST:$8845.

SO, as you can see all bids are in the same general ballpark. Change the ducts or reuse the old ones? Change the thermostat or get a new one? Enlarge the existing supply, or add an additional one? 10yr parts and labor vs 5yr parts/1yr labor.
I really think I should change my ducts. The original design was poorly planned. It looks like a roller coaster hanging from lawn chair webbing! My local utility will give a $700. rebate, so it's not about expense, it's about air flow and peace of mind.
I know American Standard and Trane are the same company.I plan to stay in my home another 10/20yrs. Should I consider Rheem? It's only single stage and winters here are pretty mild. But it's the lowest bid. I could go back and ask him to quote the duct change, but he didn't seem too enthusiastic about doing it. (something about throwing the baby out with the bathwater..)
He suggested I have him clean the old ones for $250. (Let's see, clean for $250 or replace for $950 minus $700 rebate? No Brainer!
3 out of the 4 contractors who bothered to do any calculations recommended replacing them. He also "boo-hooed" the utility co's protocol for duct testing...would have to drag out his Honeywell machine, takes 3 hours, yada yada yada...Kind of sends up a red flag. Are his prices lower because he cuts corners?
So that would leave me debating $400 between the Am Std guy with the 10yr parts/labor warranty and the one with 5yr/1yr who wants to put a couple more holes in my ceiling but leave me with the same thermostat.
WWJD? lol!

I looked up the Trane unit (XL14c) on the American Refrigeration Institute (ARI) website and got a model# 4DCY4036A1. The 36 means 3 tons. Not sure of the different model# designation, but I would guess that the Trane and A/S are the exact same unit with different names.

It is impossible to give you ductwork advice from the internet. I would say if you feel like you need new ducts, then replace them. This would give you a whole new system. You can't go wrong by adding a few more returns. I would also add that you should go with the installer that you feel most comfortable with and who would give you the best install. The install is the most important, not necessarily the brand. I would get a 10 year PARTS AND LABOR warranty for your piece of mind. Tell the contractor that this will seal the deal and his competition has thrown it in (lie if you have to and be persuading).

The t-stat is not that big of a deal. A programmable Honeywell from Home Depot is $100. It has to handle single stage cooling and 2 stage heat (the heat pump plus the gas = 2 stages). No big deal, they all do. Have him throw the stat in for free too, what the heck.

What Would Jesus Do?
- He'd change the weather to suit him when he wanted to.

Best to you.

I was about to seal the deal with the guy who offered me 10yr parts/labor when I noticed something interesting! I drove to his office w/my proposal and my 10% deposit in hand, got to the front of the building and noticed the personalized plate on his truck. It matched the user name on the review posting I came across when checking out the company online. Seems kind of desperate and unethical to post your own reviews that are meant to be from satisfied or dissatisfied customers. I kept driving, came home and called the other guy to find out how much more the 10yr parts/labor option will ad to his bid. Right now his bid is only $350 more but he's the one adding supplies/returns. Sometimes it's not just about the money...

Got the 10yr parts/labor for an additional $242. He's including a new stat. forgot to write it in...Accepted his proposal. Bottom line $600. more but a few extra supply ducts and an additional return. Definitely the most thorough and professional man out of six! Reported the other guy to Yahoo for abusing the review process. Too bad that cost him a job...
Thanks garyg for chatting with me and walking me through this process. It was certainly a learning experience and I feel good about the results. Install next week, I'll let you know how that goes.

Good job, GalFriday.

Most people post only once or twice and then go away. You asked questions, did your homework, and asked more questions.

Best of luck to you.