Suggestions on packaged heat pumps, please?

9 years ago

Hi gang,

I've been Googling to find information on packaged heat pumps, and found several helpful posts here on GardenWeb. But I could find very little information about packaged units, so I decided to join and ask a question.

My old Trane 3 ton 10 SEER all electric packaged heat pump failed for the final time this weekend, and I'm shopping for a replacement. Four local companies have come out, done load calculations, and submitted proposals.

I realize that the quality of the installation and competence of the installer is as, if not more, important than the brand. But all things being equal, I'd like to know how the pros would rank the following models. All are 3 ton w/10 kW supplemental heat strips.

Amana APH15M 14.5 SEER 12 EER 8.0 HSPF
Carrier 50VR 15.5 SEER 12 EER 8.5 HSPF
Am Std Gold XM 14.25 SEER ? EER 8.0 HSPF
Trane XL-16c 16.4 SEER 13.4 EER 9.0 HSPF
Rheem RQPL 14.0 SEER 12.0 EER 8.0 HSPF

Old Trane was 10.0 SEER, 9.5 EER, 6.8 HSPF

With factory rebates, electric company rebates, and tax breaks, the Trane, Am Std, Amana, and Carrier are closely priced, with the Rheem about $1000 less.

All have similar warranties (10/10/1) other than Amana which has a lifetime compressor warranty.

My current 10 SEER kept up with the cooling most of the time, but needed to have the heat strips on a lot to try to keep up in winter, and in real cold spells never hit the set point, even with the heat strips.

So I'm leaning toward the higher HSPF units to help out in winter.

My current Trane has a defrost cycle, but I haven't found specs to indicate if that's something still on any current models.

Thoughts on which brands/models to steer away from or lean toward? I realize everyone has horror stories on almost any brand, but overall, suggestions on which to choose?

Thanks so much!
Steve

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Comments (16)

tigerdunes
9 years ago
Trane or AmStandard would be my choice. You decide on level based on budget. Pay attention to performance/efficiency numbers including HSPF and electronic demand defrost feature.

IMO
Good Luck
artgecko
Original Author
9 years ago
Thank you, tigerdunes.

I am sorta leaning toward the Trane, as it has a variable speed motor, 2-stage compressor, and demand defrost. Is the Am Std's Spine Fin coil something better, or just their name for what everyone uses?
Thanks,
Steve
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Tigerdunes, I received a reply to my heat strip question from the Lennox dealer. He states: "I would have no idea how to size them for your home without knowing the size breaker and wire you have running to the unit. Most 2 ton units have 7,t kw. What size do you currently have? It should really make no difference since you will not use the heat except for defrost and then you would want at least 7.5 kw for the defrost cycle. Auxiliary heat almost never get used in a condo unless you are foolishly setting back. Available in 3,5, 7.5 and 10kw for 2.0 ton air handlers. The small 3.0 heaters are not staged, normally 50% stage one and 50% stage 2 until you get to 10KW. After that they have 3 stages. You should not even care about staging electric with a heat pump since that if what you heat with not electric. Do you use emergency heat? Why do you if you do?" This dealer seems willing/eager to make a deal, but I am still concerned about the pricing. As a general question...I have to date received 4-5 quotes, and they are all very high, for seemingly entry level systems. For example, I received a quote on a Goodman SSZ140241A with AEPF313716A for $7,200 from one dealer. I dont understand why this is. Is there something about me that says "rip me off" or is it that its slow this time of year and they are trying to boost margins to make up for the slowness. Or is it that its 15deg. outside and they are charging a premium for working in the cold? -a
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I hadn't looked at the info for that thermostat until just now. Wow. That really is the next generation (web connectable, controls every equipment permutation, wireless sensors). Fair warning that I know enough to be dangerous, so take that into account when reading the rest of this. The link below shows the install manual. Pages 19-20 explain some of the backup heat options/settings (although not in as much detail regarding settings as the manuals for the Vision Pro series). I'd let the installer make any changes, but this may help you get a little better informed about the options- or it may just confuse things worse. The adaptive intelligent recovery (set 'on'), not having too big a setback due to the HP system, the backup heat differential setting, and the backup heat upstage timer setting look to be the key settings to minimize how much your backup heat gets used. As for the register air temperature, the important thing is the temperature differential between the room and the air coming out. For example, it was 32F outside at my house last night, my house was holding at 68F, and the air coming out of a register at the end of a branch of my HVAC was 81F. For my system, a 13F differential is OK (not great), but it's also right above the outdoor temperature where my heat pump is locked out and the gas furnace comes on. As the outdoor temperature rises into the upper 30's, the register air temperature rises to 88F or higher. You want to know what this temperature differential is, with just the HP running (no strips) to tell whether the HP is doing its job. Low temperature differential means the charge is off or something else is going on. I have a BBQ/oven temperature probe that's stuck in the register in my laundry room (when I'm not using it for BBQ). After my system lost most of its refrigerant 18 mo.s ago, I started watching to get an idea if it was happening again. It looks like you could add sensor(s) to your super-snazzy Honeywell and it could measure this and warn you all by itself. Here is a link that might be useful: Honeywell Prestige stat install manual
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tigerdunes
9 years ago
Depending on the models selected, Trane and AmStd packaged heat pumps are absolutely identical except for outside cabinet . Don't let anyone tell you differently.

Of course you will pay more for a two stage HP over a single stage.

Did you mention your location?

Add a 10 KW heat strip and HW Mdl 8321 thermostat.

IMO
artgecko
Original Author
9 years ago
Sorry, I put my location in my profile, but didn't realize that it isn't visible to visitors. I'm in northern Ohio, west of Cleveland. I'm in a 1700 sq ft modified split-level (1 step down, 11 steps up instead of the normal 6 and 6) with new windows and mediocre insulation, built in 1976.

All quotes have included 10 kW aux heat strips.

The Trane would come with the XL624 thermostat.
The Carrier thermostat will be a TP-PRH
The American Standard thermostat will be an AMSACONT401A

Nothing was specified with the Rheem or Amana.

Thanks,
Steve

This post was edited by artgecko on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 23:00
tigerdunes
9 years ago
Pay attention to my thermostat recommendation. It is the one I would select and same as Trane's 803 model. Be aware HW makes Trane thermostats and there are only a few proprietary models unique only to Trane/AmStd.

IMO
artgecko
Original Author
9 years ago
Thanks! I'll go over my specs during the holiday weekend. Maybe a couple more folks will chime in by then, too. Then I'll call one of the companies on Tuesday.

Steve
tigerdunes
9 years ago
BTW, what is price difference between Trane and AmStd quotes?

Post back.

IMO
mtvhike
9 years ago
What is the best unit for heating in cold climates (AC not needed)? My alternative is pure resistive heating.
tigerdunes
9 years ago
For above poster...

It is considered bad forum etiquette to hijack a thread.

Go to bottom of main/home page and start your thread. You will receive better advice and help plus all active forum embers can follow.

IMO
mtvhike
9 years ago
Sorry, I just thought the answer to my question might be useful to the original poster. I see several threads in which the same information is being requested by different posters.
artgecko
Original Author
9 years ago
tigerdunes,

Sorry for the delay in replying. I've been out of town since Saturday morning.

Trane XL-16c 16 SEER is $6880 after $1200 manufacturer's and local electric company's rebates. Am Std Gold XL 14 SEER is $7640 and no available rebates. Carrier 50VR-A is $7740, and Rheem RQPL is $5900.

The Rheem guy is also quoting a 16 SEER 2-stage RQRM to compare with the other company's 15 and 16 SEER units. If it is priced similarly to the 14 SEER Rheem it should come in around the Trane price.

MTVhike, Lots of heat pump threads, but almost none discussing recommendations for electric packaged heat pump units, which is what I'm replacing.

Thanks,
Steve

This post was edited by artgecko on Mon, Sep 1, 14 at 21:37
artgecko
Original Author
9 years ago
Rheem RQRM 16 SEER 2-stage came in at $6300 less possible mfgr rebate.

That's 16/13/8.5 for the Rheem vs 16.4/13.4/9.0 for the Trane, with the Rheem from a company that so far sounds like I'd like to do business (smaller company, not much commercial work compared to other which does mostly commercial, and I'm dealing directly with the owner instead of one of a dozen sales guys (err, comfort advisors...)
tigerdunes
9 years ago
Good price on Trane XL16c.

What thermostat does:dealer recommend?

IMO
artgecko
Original Author
9 years ago
The Trane would come with the XL624 thermostat, but you recommended changing to the HW 8321.
artgecko
Original Author
9 years ago
Thoughts on the Rheem RQRM 16 SEER? I'm leaning pretty strongly to this installer.

Thanks,
Steve
artgecko
Original Author
9 years ago
I went with the Rheem RQRM 16 SEER packaged heat pump, and the White Ridgers/Emerson Sensi wifi thermostat.

Thanks for the help!
Steve

Suggestions on packaged heat pumps, please?

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