Help me design a new HVAC system. 1950's Cape Cod

11 years ago

I'm renovating a cape cod style home in South Eastern PA that currently has hot water baseboard heat (oil), small closets and window unit AC. I wanted to keep the baseboard for heat, and just put in AC, but the more I get into this renovation, the more baseboard I have to repair, and some will just be lost due to cabinetry and other appliances. I'm starting to think along the lines of pulling out the baseboards and going to a heat pump. What should I do?

1550 sq ft - 650 up and 900 down. The second floor has knee walls and is akin to a finished attic. The space above is very small, but perhaps not to small for an air handler.

I don't have Natural Gas available, and if I ditch the baseboards I don't know if having the oil tank in the basement would make much sense. I could go with propane (good excuse to get a propane stove).

Some things I have come up with after having a few HVAC guys come out (all are with just electric aux. strips):

1. Small single stage unit both in the attic and basement. 13ish seer range. Medium Cost. Average efficiency and comfort.

2. Larger 2 stage units both in the attic and basement. High Cost. Better efficiency and comfort.

3. Large single stage unit 15ish seer in basement. Low Cost. Average efficiency but comfort may be sacrificed on second floor since there really aren't any good routes for the ductwork.

Also, some efficiency and comfort may be lost with option 1 since they don't seem to make 1.5 ton units with decent seer ratings.

Thoughts, suggestions...Am I even going down the right path or should I be looking at propane to supplement the heat pump and help with comfort?

The baseboards are just soooo nice and warm, but too darn expensive. I want an economical replacement.

Featured Answer

cindywhitall

11 years ago

This may be out there and I am JUST a homeowner....but is it possible that since you are renovating and it is not a large house, maybe you could build some soffits for some new ductwork (don't know what else to call it)going to the upstairs? How many rooms would need vents and how many vents total? It's just an idea because if you could do it then couldn't you get away with just one unit in the basement? I suppose the hvac guys would have suggested that already though...

I like the idea of keeping the baseboard for backup, but have no idea of the comparative cost of actually using it.

Good luck with your reno.

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (13)

tigerdunes
11 years ago
Leave the baseboards for backup and extra cold days.

Then install high eff heat pump with backup heat strip.

What is your electric rate?

Electric breaker box will need to be checked to see what capacity you have. Condenser, air handler, and strip heat should be on dedicated separate circuits. May require upgrade.

IMO
Brandon_B
Original Author
11 years ago
Well that's not quite the answer I was looking for, but you're probably right. I was just hoping there was a better solution than spending a bunch of money putting the baseboard heat back together AND buying a heat pump.

I think the electric rate is about $0.14, and I'm upgrading the service to 200amps and rewiring the whole house, so I think that I should be okay.
Related Discussions
HVAC Quotes
Q
Comments (3)
Trenton, NJ., summer design 88-f dry bulb 74-f wet bulb around 50% RH. Trenton climate is almost identical to Madison, WI climate. 2100-sf/700sf per ton of cooling is 3-Ton, in most of these climates you should be able to do enough to reduce the heatload so a 3-ton would handle the heatload. Always do a heatload calc so you know what you're doing. A 4-Ton should be out of the question. Always check the duct system & airflow because the ductwork may only be sized to handle 3-Ton or less; if less, size the equipment to match the duct system airflow ESP. Here in SW WI, we have 2-Ton A/C's doing perfect jobs cooling 2400-sf homes. Your homes excessive air infiltration can be half the cooling & heating loads - seal them. Where there is access, seal all the duct connections with special mastic. Make certain there are NO Return Air leaks from hot exterior areas. - udarrell Here is a link that might be useful: Proper Duct Sizing Airflow Matching Equipment
...See More
Cape Cod style home- upstairs insulation help please
Q
Comments (9)
I know of no building code in the US that recognizes "equivalent" R value for a reflective radiant barrier (other than the R value for the air space) although the barrier will definitely lower your energy costs. Maybe there is a performance trade-off you haven't told us about or a code amendment for your jurisdiction. I would have expected the designer and/or builder to have anticipated providing space for the code required insulation before starting the foundations. Why are insulating companies proposing R 20 if the code requires R38? What R value was shown on the building permit drawings? Your entire post is a conundrum. Even with no venting and closed cell spray foam you will need at least 2x6 roof framing which looks to be the case although it would be helpful if you told us the space available. I suspect there is something important you haven't told us about this project. For instance, if you are using the Prescriptive compliance method and if the roof insulation is full height over the exterior wall top plate, the R38 requirement can be reduced to R30. Is that the case? This reduction does not apply to the U-Factor, Total UA Alternatives or Performance compliance methods. Another way to reduce the Rvalue requirement is to use software that allows tradeoffs between different parts of the envelope. Any of these insulation design methods must be calculated and recorded and approved in the building permit documents. You should not be discussing the required roof R value with contractors.
...See More
Help me decide what to do with the trims in my 1954 Cape Cod.
Q
Comments (13)
Thanks, all! I'm thinking through all the options.... I don't really want to take stained trim out of the two upstairs bedrooms because upstairs is really where I like the stained trim the best. Feels very cozy to me up there with the sloping ceilings, and just works. Part of the reason I don't love it so much downstairs, and especially in the dining room is because of the wide trim around the sliding glass door that is a different color and type of wood -- it just clashes, plus the built-ins are painted white, and it's a a mish-mash. Here's a scenario: What if I painted baseboards throughout the first floor of the house, and also the window and door trim in the dining room and kitchen, but left the stained window and door trim in the living room and rest of the first floor? Would that look janky or jarring? (Maybe I should note that we have quite a bit of wood furniture that my dad made throughout the house, so there would still be wood notes in the dining and kitchen.)
...See More
HVAC Ductwork replacement
Q
Comments (36)
Charles Ross Homes Ray,You've repeatedly called me on my assertion that builders don't design mechanical systems. I stand by that statement. Many of the problems with HVAC systems reported on houzz.com are rooted in improper design, improper installation or a combination of both. There are professionals who do design work, professionals who do installation work and some who do both. An HVAC design professional doesn't need to breathe Freon to do his or her job any more than an architect needs to swing a hammer. Get over it. Charles what you are whining about can be be explained in various ways and mine is that it's a Texas thing. Nolen Ryan summed it up "It ain't bragging if you can do it". I totally agree the crowd you've run with all your life only understands what happens on their desk, out of their tool bag or whatever their little corner is but that isn't true for everyone in construction. Here's one that will not hire you or one of your comrades that only understand a small part of innerworkings of the operation. You will never see a billboard with their name,never get a spam email asking for business or other type solicitation. Mention the company name in the NE quadrant of Texas (an area larger than entire state of Illinois) and a person might say "where do I know them from"? The answer isn't likely because they built something for them but most likely because they made a contribution to their charitable cause. Their jobs range from 1500 sq ft Barndominiums to small school district campus buildings with mm homes as their specialty. Plans are drawn in house and the architect could fetch a speed square,7018 electrodes or plumb bob for a laborer is asked. The owner has experience to start the engine drive and run beads on I-beam or jump on the Bobcat and move material if called on. There are some other companies of equal stature and I've know some like you describe Charles. They didn't know how to do jobs in the trench but they wore big cowboy hats,drove new cars,smoked $10 cigars and slapped backs with folks in high places. When I say high places,I mean high place like President Of The USA. Billy Sol Estes was a Texas millionaire that rubbed shoulders with LBJ. Rex Cauble was a man's man when it comes to big hats,shiny boots and lavish parties. No conversation about big shots in the construction business is complete unless we mention Danny Faulkner,Mayor James Tolar and banker Spencer Blain. Their wealth was at one time estimated in the billions and the Faulkner the head man not only didn't know beans about working in the trench,he didn't even have above 5th grade education. So yes Charles,a man in business can roll in money without getting dirt under his nails but in my book that doesn't mean he is intelligent or successful. The reason all those people are from North Texas is because I had multiple opportunities to work for all them but only took one up on the offer and even though I long ago stepped down to hand over the reins,I'm proud to say the name I was doing business under 50 years ago can still be seen on truck doors at sites of the only company above still in business. So don't try telling me it's best to ride shoulders of men doing work I don't know how to do myself in order to reach success. It's a Texas thing Charles,I don't expect you to understand and that doesn't make you a bad boy.
...See More
tigerdunes
11 years ago
Other than the fuel cost, baseboard hot water heat is great. This gives you a choice. How old is your boiler? Any operating problems?

I just think the redundancy is good. Use the HP down to freezing/mid 20s.

I ran some fuel cost comparisons and you would see some solid savings with a HP.

Here is my personal checklist.

Obviously correct sizing is important. If you are unsure, then request a load calculation or even perform it yourself for a nominal fee online.

there are three equally important components-quality HVAC, the install by dealer, and probably the most overlooked and disregarded is the ductwork system.

these are my minimum specs for a new HP system. both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant line set

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

I would only use authorized dealers for the various brands that provide quotes.
see mfg websites.

I would look at Trane/AmStd,Rheem/Rudd,Carrier/Bryant.

Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new HP system that did not have electronic demand defrost.

IMO
Good Luck!
Brandon_B
Original Author
11 years ago
The boiler is in decent shape, but it's 35 years old, and the basement has been vacant and very damp for about 2 years, so it could go at any time.

I will get load calcs, but if I use two systems, 1.5 tons each is already oversizing. That why I'm on the fence about stepping up to a 2 ton two stage. 2 tons each will really be over kill (4 tons in a 2.5 ton house), but 2 stage may keep me closer to 1 ton in the first stage. Maybe?

I'm now starting to think about mini splits upstairs, and conventional on the first floor...
energy_rater_la
11 years ago
it is called fur downs. ducts are run in
conditioned space and fur downs are bulit around
ducts.
this is what I did, putting R-8 ducts in my
hot attic was not even a consideration.
I also went with a heat pump and guess what...
last year my july bill was $148 ...this year
....$72 and that includes about $10 for security
light & misc.
my utility rate is .08

tigerdunes gives good specs & info.
evaluate duct/return system, mastic seal
everything & fix house air leakage.
blower door testing will show you things
you never imagined.

best of luck.
ionized_gw
11 years ago
I like my my mini splits, but I don't live where it is cold. The zoning works very well for me.
ionized_gw
11 years ago
I like my my mini splits, but I don't live where it is cold. The zoning works very well for me.
Brandon_B
Original Author
11 years ago
Looks like keeping the baseboard is out. Found a run between floors that had a loose joint from all of my cutting and hacking with the sawsall. So now I wouldn't trust the pipes without ripping out the floors and inspecting all of the joints.

So...i had a Bryant dealer out and he gave me a quote on an extreme hp evolution system. It was the same price a goodman system from a different installer. We did find a good route for the ductwork to get to the second floor, so it will be one system in the basement. I'll post the model no. and whatnot when he puts together the final quote.
Brandon_B
Original Author
11 years ago
Looks like keeping the baseboard is out. Found a run between floors that had a loose joint from all of my cutting and hacking with the sawsall. So now I wouldn't trust the pipes without ripping out the floors and inspecting all of the joints.

So...i had a Bryant dealer out and he gave me a quote on an extreme hp evolution system. It was the same price a goodman system from a different installer. We did find a good route for the ductwork to get to the second floor, so it will be one system in the basement. I'll post the model no. and whatnot when he puts together the final quote.
ionized_gw
11 years ago
There must be a way to pressure test the system.
Brandon_B
Original Author
11 years ago
Yeah, I thought about some kind of pressure test, but from what I could tell, it would have taken some extensive repair work just to put the system back to a loop of some kind worthy of being tested. So, it's too late now anyway. The Base Board is gone. It really was a mess, and if I ever want to, I could always add some clean new radiators or base boards to the rooms that need it.

That being said, I have a decision to make:

Option #1 - Variable Speed Air Handler Model#FE4ANF003Twith a 3-Ton, 16 SEER 2 Stage Heat Pump with Air Conditioneing Unit Model#286BNA036.

Option #2 - Variable Speed Air Handler Model#FE4ANF005Twith a 3-Ton,20 SEER Inverter Heat Pump with Air Conditioneing Unit Model#280ANV036

Both Systems Equiped with Evolution Zone Controls for 2-Zone Heating and Cooling System. 15 KW Heat Strip ect. Option to add Humidifier and Media Filter +$1,000.

The installer did an operating cost analysis and it showed the Extreme System (20 SEER) being just a bit better in cooling, but $900/year less in heating.

Which to I pick?
Brandon_B
Original Author
11 years ago
Well, an installer that I had forgotten about just sent me a REALLY good proposal. He was a local non-salesmen like guy which was a nice change and he was really easy to talk to. It's a Luxaire system. Here's the AHRI Cert: 3831747.

What do you guys think?

Help me design a new HVAC system. 1950's Cape Cod

cindywhitall

Comments (13)

tigerdunes

Brandon_B
Original Author

Related Discussions

tigerdunes

Brandon_B
Original Author

energy_rater_la

ionized_gw

ionized_gw

Brandon_B
Original Author

Brandon_B
Original Author

ionized_gw

Brandon_B
Original Author

Brandon_B
Original Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Help me design a new HVAC system. 1950's Cape Cod

cindywhitall

Comments (13)

tigerdunes

Brandon_BOriginal Author

Related Discussions

tigerdunes

Brandon_BOriginal Author

energy_rater_la

ionized_gw

ionized_gw

Brandon_BOriginal Author

Brandon_BOriginal Author

ionized_gw

Brandon_BOriginal Author

Brandon_BOriginal Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Brandon_B
Original Author

Brandon_B
Original Author

Brandon_B
Original Author

Brandon_B
Original Author

Brandon_B
Original Author

Brandon_B
Original Author