Thanks for the info regarding the volume requirements, the 1.5 gpm/ton did seem rather low to me as well. I have been looking for a curve or equation based on factors such as source water temperature and even ambient external temperature and insulation efficiency but so far no luck. As for the cooling by spraying with water, I'm not clear as to why you suggest that it is not a good idea. It is exposed to the elements after all (e.g. rain). My biggest concern would be scaling due to the content left behind after evaporation but maybe there is a way around that (e.g. descaling or reducing/removing hardness, I have considered looking into a softener system to make use of my existing sand point for household use and reduce or eliminate the need for city water but am not sure if that would remove enough)? As for the sand point, you should not be mislead by the pictures or experience of the Muskoka's and assume that all of northern ontario is exposed rock, not to mention the fact that I am not in the Muskoka area. In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, we have a significant water source at about 10 feet below the surface and myself and a number of my neighbors have sand points into this water (which is primarily used to water lawns and gardens), with my own at about 16 feet deep on a 2" pipe. The soil is rather sandy and boulders do not appear to be an issue though i am sure an occasional one could be hit which would result in abandoning that hole. The bigger issue, as verified by a local installer, would likely come again from the same issue I pointed out above, namely hard water build-up, though this time it would occur in the exchanger itself, leading to reduced efficiencies and emminent failure if it cannot be controlled. This variable itself will likely make the project a no-go, again however leaving the question of how effectively a softener system would work around this and provide a controlled heating/cooling fluid, and then at what cost. On a slightly different topic, in a closed loop vertical system, what is the typical bore size for the wells? In other words, how much separation is there between the supply and return tubes? This post was edited by Dave_Gillingham on Wed, Feb 12, 14 at 19:11

Thanks Tigerdunes: Electricity use is as follows: First 1,000 kWh 6.778 â per kWh Over 1,000 kWh 7.500 â per kWh ( I use about 800 kwh without AC and 1300 Kwh with it) Propane: 2.69per gallon - usage in winter used to be approx 350-400 gallons per month! I agree that the mark ups for the Heat Pumps condensor are outrageous. The cheapest price I was quoted was $5310 for a Trane XB14 unit, or $5225 for RUUD. I started shopping in May, have had 4 contractors out here, and still see major issues with each contractor. The one I like the best is from Sky Heating, as he was the most thorough, and company got the best reviews. He had the lowest prices as well, but they are still about 3 times the wholesale cost. I have the money to pay for the more expensive systems, but I just can't find a good reason to do that. won't, on principle, as I feel they are purposefully marking them up. This kind of stuff happens to everyone, but seems to happen a bit more to single women ?!? (kind of a sexist comment, but I have noticed this to be true). Back to the subject at hand - I looked at QualitySmith.com for nationwide averages for installation on various Trane Heat Pumps - I compared it to the bids I received: Trane Installation costs (range nationwide) XR15:Install cost $4500-$10,000 (quote= $8100) XB14 Install cost = $3000-$7500 (qutoe was $5300) XB13 install cost =$2500-$6500 (quote was $6400) I noticed in another post that you were recommending a SEER 13 unit, but did not like the Trane XB13 (SEER 14-15) but not the Trane units. You specifically wrote that wrote that you would not get a Trane XB13. I was wondering if you liked any of the Trane models that I have listed? What Brands/models do you like that are SEER 13? Any suggestions for how to find a more competitive bid? I tried Bargaining with one contractor, and I could tell he was completely resistant to it- giving me less information each time I contacted him; strong arming me to come back and meet with me again, etc. Here are some other Brands I received bids for - they also seemed a bit high but are cheaper than others: : Carrier 25HBC5 Comfort - SEER 14.5 FOR $6289_ York YHJFLX series SEER 14.5 for $5869.00 RUUD 4 ton Achiever SEER 14.5 $5225 I would like to pay less than $5000 but that has not been possible. With 5000 Square foot home, and the logs not chinked, I don't envy the contractors for trying to decide what would work best. A two zone system is preferred in houses like this but the cost to retrofit is exorbitant. Desperately confused in Oregon! Thanks again

Thanks again, neo. Yeah, that is odd about the SEER rating dropping. Looking at Contractor #2, for instance. Q1 and Q2 are the same, except Q1 has a 21 SEER condensing unit and Q2 has a 17 SEER. Why would cooling capacity go UP with the 17 SEER? Same coil, same blower, different condensing unit. #1 21SEER condenser 96.6% furnace Coil AHRI: Cooling Capacity 57000 BTuh EER Rating: 12.20 SEER: 15.5 #2 17SEER 96.6 Furnace Coil AHRI Cooling Capacity 57500Btuh EER 12.3 SEER: 15.5 Then Contractor 1, Q2 has the same 17 SEER condensing unit, but with an 80% furnace. Also, this quote has a slightly different coil number, 6124 instead of 6024. See here that the SEER goes up to 16.5, and cooling capacity increases as well. AHRI Cooling Capacity 59500Btuh EER 13.2 SEER 16.5 --- I'm not trying to hit every rebate I can. It's just frustrating that some are just barely out of reach with what seem to be pretty efficient systems. You really have to go all out to get them.

I guess you are out in the boonies with no nat gas. I can't help with equipment. It is a relatively low volume kind of demand for equipment, I'm sure. You may be forced into the industrial/commercial area and if you are not big enough, you may be out of luck. Assuming that you can get a suitably sized unit, if your hydronic system is designed to deliver heat with a low enough water temperature, it can probably be done efficiently. What is the water temperature currently set to? Try heatinghelp.com and terrylove.com. I've seen some good hydronic heat/boiler threads in both places. If you have to stick with an electric boiler, you might look at the installation of a large storage tank and going to day/night rates. You'd have to run some numbers to see if it will work for you.