sport court barn hvac--need suggestions

10 years ago

We are building a barn in Pennsylvania which will house a sport court (think basketball, tennis, etc.) It will have a pitched roof, 35' high at the peak, 20' high at the bottom of the trusses. To protect the wood floor of this court, we will need a constant 65-70 degree temperature & humidity swings of no more than 15% (ie. about 40-55% humidity all the time). This means we will be running the hvac system at this level--and paying for it--24/7 forever.
In this context, it seemed like the additional upfront cost of geothermal would be worth it for the long-term efficiency. Dealers reported 30 EER vs. only 15 for a traditional heat pump. We also need 4-6x air exchange due to sports activity.

However, two friends who have geothermal and are knowledgable reported that while geothermal cools their house for free all summer, the cost savings in the winter have been minimal. (Which was surprising to me--we live in PA, not usually too cold here). They urged me to consider mini-splits & super high-efficiency heat pumps.

The costs of the super-efficient heat pumps (20 SEER) is $22,000 vs. only $24,000 for a 2 stage ComfortAire (30 EER) geothermal set up. Thinking costs of Mitsubishi mini-splits will be a little less, but worried they can't keep a space this big (1) warm enough & (2) circulate enough air for 4-6x exchange; & (3) regulate humidity. Also not sure where we would put the mini-split b/c can't hide it in the ceiling, as we won't be able to get to it to service it in a ceiling that high.

I would be most grateful for any guidance & input, as I'm at a standstill re: what to do.
Many thanks!

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (14)

fsq4cw
10 years ago
I think your friends may be wrong on geothermal.

I would install in-floor radiant heating and cooling with a geothermal ground source heat pump.

Consult with professionals.

IMPO

SR

Here is a link that might be useful: International Ground Source Heat Pump Association at Oklahoma State University
User
10 years ago
"I would install in-floor radiant heating and cooling with a geothermal ground source heat pump."

How does this address humidity control? Just curious.
Related Discussions
Noisy Neighbors
Q
Comments (16)
If I have to hear one more time that he owns this and owns that I'm gonna shoot myself in the foot. Who's cares, really? funny--I'd always assumed nfllifer mentioned that because he/she was trying to give us some background about what his/her qualifications are--and the fact the nfllifer owns those properties, or has a friend who went through that experience, etc., gives me a great deal of insight into how to interpret what he/she says. In fact, it's quite common on forums like this for people to mention those things. I've never felt that nfllifer's mentions of it sounded like bragging so much as "here's where I'm coming from, and why I have that particular perspective." I'm w/ nfllifer on the idea that you can't blame your landlord bcs someone vandalizes your car, etc. Those can be an indication that you need to move, bcs your apt. is in a crummy area. but people who own houses deal w/ that stuff as well. And I think the first answer had some points our original poster will need to consider--if this is how it's coming across to us, you can be sure that others actually involved in the situation (landlord, judge, neighbors) may have those same reactions--now you can be prepared for them, and perhaps avoid them. As to where you can go with this: If you can document the lack of "quiet enjoyment," you may be able to claim your landlord has broken the contract (your lease), and you may be able to get out without penalty. Check to see if there's any sort of state or local agency that assists renters, esp0. with advice; if you're connected to an organization or agency that helps deaf people, they might be able to help you find such assistance. That'll make it easier and less stressful to proceed with the "I gave them a chance, they didn't fix it, they've broken the lease and I want out" argument. Are you only partially deaf or something, that you can hear noise but still need a service dog? Not my business particulary, but the details you gave did make me wonder.
...See More
First Day of Deer Season with Rifles - Do I Lay Low?
Q
Comments (40)
This is a great thread - although it seems to have strayed a little bit from the original question - there are still many interesting ideas and opinions being given. Personally, I don't deer hunt because I don't particulary like venison. In Wisconsin, where I live, the fall deer hunting season is about as close to being a religion as it is to being a sport. Rifle season typically runs from the Saturday before Thanksgiving to the Sunday following the holiday. Schools close the entire week because they realize that a good many (most?) of the students and a good many teachers have other ideas for that week and there is really no benefit to keeping the schools open at that time. I own 56 acres and I allow my neighbors to hunt on my land. I KNOW that my neighbors are safe hunters and that they are respectful of my property. Also, if they happen to shoot an animal on their own land, and not kill it immediately, I certainly want them to have the oportunity to track the wounded animal if it happens to lead them on to my property. Knowing that there is the potential for hunters to be on the "wooded back 40" anytime during the season means that I don't go into the woods without wearing orange. While I don't have a particular worry about our dogs or horses, I do keep them close to the house (dogs) or in smaller pasture (horses) during the rifle season. Ultimately, my family does not change our basic lifestyle to any great degree during hunting season. Although I understand your initial hesitation, fifidanon, I also think that you did the right thing by overcoming your concern and living your life. As other folks have already suggested, the car ride to the mall is MUCH more of a risk than is the potential stray bullet. As for deer roadkill, it is also legal here to recover a deer that has been hit by a car. Seems to me like a much better option than letting it lay on the side of the road to rot. Last year I hit two deer with my truck - in almost the same location - about 5 days apart. The first deer survived the impact, but it had a broken back and was in obvious pain, so I drove to a neighbor's house and brought him to the wounded deer where he finished it. We loaded it up and took it back to his house so he could butcher the carcass. The second deer was hit right on the head (I almost missed that one) and was killed outright. Again, I loaded it up in the truck and took it to the same neighbor so the meat could be used - rather than leaving it to rot and to be wasted. BTW, that particular neighbor works as a seasonal DNR warden so he took care of the "official" report on both accidents. Anyway, although we may see deer-as-roadkill-food differently, I certainly echo labmomma's sentiments when I say that the story of the deer that she hit being allowed to die a slow death - in pain - as being preferable to a quick bullet putting it out of its misery - because the cops were concerned that people would see them shoot it (!?!?!?!) was disturbing at several levels. Sad.
...See More
Get it off your chest.....what irritates ya?
Q
Comments (68)
LOL Zeetera I use obscure terms and words no one else knows too. I know "top and tail" Graham Kerr the Galloping Gourmet said it while I was watching his show so long ago. I learned it then and it has stuck. The funny thing is I hadn't heard the term in years and only a few times some time back. Very recently I was watching another well know cooking show and the Chef used the term top and tail. The gals watching with me didn't know it. I have only heard Chefs say it. LIL
...See More
Is this house too long? Honest opinions on our elevation, please!
Q
Comments (67)
I sometimes wonder why anyone posts his plans on this site. We come from SO many perspectives! Most people posting are building a house in a subdivision, not people buying property and then designing a house for their needs that suits the property. If someone is even considering a subdivision-type house, or is looking to adapt "stock" plans, then that is exactly how that person wants his house to look and be arranged. That's the kind of house they like and most likely the kind their friends have, too. Then there is an outlier such as me. My "subdivision house" was built in 1948, and in fact, all the houses were custom built in this subdivision. Some of the ones built just before WWII were two story colonials that were identical inside, but slightly different on the outside. Over the years, various owners have added on and done so in different ways, so unless one knows the history of the neighborhood, it is not apparent. If one is determined to have an "open concept" floor plan, and a first floor master suite, the floor plan is pretty much predetermined. I have LOTS of problems with such plans as I think that ultimately, they don't work very well. The space always appears quite large on the floor plan, but when furniture is floated and not mostly against walls, one loses a LOT of space. Add lots of large family entertaining, and even at 3500 sq feet, it will feel cramped/crowded. "Open concept" works best in tiny houses where separate rooms would feel like a rabbit warren, or in very large ones, with tons of room to float furniture (think McMansion). People today want lots of garages as many families have lots of cars. For decades, a ONE car garage was standard, and then a 2 car became the standard about 70 years ago. Now, it is not unusual to see 4-5 car garages. The problem, of course, is how to site them - they are an imposing presence! And then there is the cost. Even though it is never included in the square footage of a house for sale, it does factor in the square footage cost of building and it can be a LOT! A friend of my daughter lives on a horse farm and built a house on the family farm. She wanted a beautiful, gracious home with lots of millwork details. It was custom designed and the bids to construct it came in a 4 times their budget. So, they did without the first floor MBR suite for 5-7 years and then added it, living in a 2nd flr smaller bedroom in the meantime. It was tight up there with three girls and their stuff! Ten years later, they finally added the garages. I think they have 4 at least. Sometimes a longterm plan is the best. One figures out how to get what one wants in the public rooms in a house, especially if one has large groups often. Then one saves to add onto the house and the design is already done and ready to go when the money is there. Believe me, I LOVE my garage - I'm far too old to be scrapping windshields! But perhaps you need to chose between that and the sport's court and make sure you have made your public rooms big enough for a crowd...or just your own very large family! Do speak to a roofer about your roof design. A roofer friend said that most houses today, with their multiple gables etc, cost a fortune when a new roof is needed ($30,000 to 40,000)!. They are very labor intensive, whereas a traditional single peaked roof (front and back both the same with no gables), is far less expensive. You don't mention if you have trees nearby; if you do, the leaves will gather in the valleys and are a huge nuisance. Good luck!
...See More
ionized_gw
10 years ago
"...cools their house for free...." I don't see how that can work unless they are using true geothermal to generate electricity.

In-floor cooling will make for a very slippery, water-saturated floor.

MIni-splits are available in different forms including air handlers that are hidden. In fact, they look pretty much like regular split units only smaller. At some point, the difference becomes semantic. What is a mini-split vs, a regular split unit? The most familiar mini-splits have no provision for ventilation. Types mounted in ceilings do.

Is natural gas available for heat?

If the space is going to be unoccupied for long periods, dehumidification might be more cost effective than straight cooling.
fsq4cw
10 years ago
Humidity or latent loads are controlled by electronically monitoring temperature and humidity and keeping the temperature of the floor above the dew point, as well as integrating HRV or ERV systems for fresh air exchange.

This should be handled as a commercial - not residential project. This type of geo-radiant configuration is commonly done in warehouses, commercial buildings, municipal garages, aircraft hangers and sports complexes.

Geothermal is never really free, what is thought of as Ã¢ÂÂfreeÃ¢ÂÂ in the summertime is domestic hot water production, as the heat extracted from the envelope is transferred to the hot water tank through the desuperheater before the rest is sinked into the ground via the ground loop heat exchanger.

SR
fsq4cw
10 years ago
Double posted...

SR

This post was edited by fsq4cw on Mon, Aug 26, 13 at 20:31
ionized_gw
10 years ago
Hot water might be a good point to make if there will be a lot of shower water used in the building in the summer. Will there be a pool that wants heating as well?
pschuster
Original Author
10 years ago
Hi everyone,
Many thanks for the feedback. My HVAC person also suggested that there are thermostats that monitor humidity as well as temp and kick on accordingly. He thinks that the a/c can handle dehumidification but is recommending a steam humidifier for the winter.

Seriously considered radiant heat under the floor. Concern is that b/c the floor is "floating" only a minimal amt of heat will make it up into the room. To crank the temp of the radiant high enough to heat the room may jeopardize the maple floor.

Natural gas IS available for heat.

Thanks, too, for the reminder that mini-splits may not address ventilation/air exchange needs. Hadn't focused on that when considering the mini-splits.

Any other thoughts? Sounds like geothermal, if sized right, may be the way to go. Any preferences between Water Furnace Envision, Comfort Aire or ClimateMaster TE049? These are the three pieces of equipment the contractors have given me quotes on. The heat pump they are quoting is a 4 ton, 2-stage Lennox system.
juliekcmo
10 years ago
Surprised at the load
How large exactly is the space?
Grade school gyms run about 30 tons once ventilation is accounted for. Your budget may be in for a bad surprise.

You need a contractor with commercial experience to double check he load.

Agree with previous poster regarding the space. It's most like a warehouse.

This post was edited by juliekcmo on Mon, Aug 26, 13 at 23:31
fsq4cw
10 years ago
Radiant can be done with virtually any type of floor. In fact the temperatures with radiant can be quite low and will not damage your maple floor. You will not have to Ã¢ÂÂcrank upÃ¢ÂÂ the temperature to achieve the set point. Ã¢ÂÂLower temperatureÃ¢ÂÂ also means Ã¢ÂÂless energyÃ¢ÂÂ.

With radiant youÃ¢ÂÂre heating the whole surface of the floor and on up rather than pouring hot air out of a few small openings as with forced air. Radiant heats people and things, with forced air you have to heat the whole volume of air, floor to ceiling. With radiant who cares what happens over 6 or 8 feet above the floor!

Well pretty muchÃ¢ÂÂ¦

SR

Here is a link that might be useful: Warmboard
Elmer J Fudd
10 years ago
Why not a concrete floor? That would make it much cheaper and easier to deal with. You can't play tennis on a wood floor but you can play basketball on a concrete one.
ionized_gw
10 years ago
Concrete can be pretty tough to fall down and slide on, can't it?

Depending on where in PA you are, you might have trouble meeting the humidity range without re-heat capability. Why does it have to be that tight? Haven't modern floor manufacturing techniques made them better able to resist moisture and temp swings?
pschuster
Original Author
10 years ago
Have to have a very specific maple floor b/c it is, in fact, not a general "sports court", but a squash court. Please see great YouTube link below if you've never heard of squash (lots of people haven't). This is the video squash has submitted to be included in the 2020 Olympics. http://youtu.be/U4EnbuxUSoc

SO, have crossed off mini-splits b/c can't add humidification and can't get adequate ventilation.

Now just have to decide between Heat Pump & Geothermal.
If Heat Pump--Lennox 15.5 Seer XP16 at $18,210 or 17.2 SEER XP21at $20,000? Seems like extra efficiency would be worth the extra money upfront.

and if Geothermal--Water Furnace Envision at $40,000, Comfort Aire at $35,500, or ClimateMaster $35,800?
Any views on quality of these different GT units?

Also, BTW, thanks to comments on this site, have bumped insulation in the ceiling from R-30 to R-38 or maybe 45? (think I have that right--talked to the builder this morning). Many thanks!
fsq4cw
10 years ago
If you decide to go geo and in-floor radiant, my pick would be a Nordic TF Series (Triple Function). One machine and you have it all (almost, except liquid cooling for hydronic A/C).

Full capacity force air heating & A/C, full capacity hot water for in-floor hydronic heating and a desuperheater for domestic hot water (DHW) - ALL in 1-box, up to 6.5-ton!

See link below and click on Ã¢ÂÂdownloadsÃ¢ÂÂ for complete descriptions.

SR

Here is a link that might be useful: Nordic Triple Function Series
mstanchi
2 years ago
pschuster What system did you ultimately go with....? Heat Pump & Geothermal? Did you also heat the flooring?

sport court barn hvac--need suggestions

Comments (14)

fsq4cw

User

Related Discussions

ionized_gw

fsq4cw

fsq4cw

ionized_gw

pschuster
Original Author

juliekcmo

fsq4cw

Elmer J Fudd

ionized_gw

pschuster
Original Author

fsq4cw

mstanchi

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

sport court barn hvac--need suggestions

Comments (14)

Related Discussions

pschusterOriginal Author

pschusterOriginal Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

pschuster
Original Author

pschuster
Original Author