Thanks for setting up this thread, Jessy. Now we can have a really fun food fight!

But seriously, I hope we can uncover information which will be useful to Cooking Forum members. There seems to be strong opinions on both sides and it's not easy, even with Google, to find a lot that's definitive.

Jim

Hi Jimster

If interested, start with:
"Global Assessment of Organic Contaminants in Farmed Salmon" at http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/303/5655/226

'Science' is a world leading journal of scientific research for those not familiar with it.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/303/5655/226

I've been trying to stay away from "hot topics" here - especially in this election year, lest I give myself a daily conniption. On this issue, I have read many, many documents and I am with Jim. I eat farmed salmon and I think it is safe. Without going deeply into my analyses - because at some point I have to write my Idol review (important!) and go to bed, I believe that many important issues have become so politicized that it's difficult to see over the BS and get the real info.

And speaking of Idol - the latest attempt at curbing malaria in Africa is for charities to distribute mosquito nets. It's a crime - a flipping crime. DDT is the answer - it would save MILLIONS of lives a year, but no, DDT is a poltical bogeyman and cannot be used ever, ever again. Even if it could save those MILLIONS of African lives. Read about it.

Okay I'm done I swear. I am not participating in any more such discussions. I only implore all of you to search the web and read source documents and different analysis of these hot issues. You may change your mind about many things. Here are a couple of my recent bookmarks you can slog through:

Why I left Greenpeace.

The case for Skepticism on Global Warming.

I'm not really caring one way or the other..I just prefer "local"...

however..this is my thought on using the internet for one's "opinion".

Can't you truly google any answer that will side with one's arguement?? either side?

Read them all - and read the source documents for their arguments (I finished my Idol review - I'm going to bed now - I am!!)

Chase, I agree with you on the lake perch, the walleye, pike. Yum, fresh Michigan lake fish

Jimster, I also much prefer the wild salmon I catch myself. Unfortunately, the score so far since last fall is Salmon: 3, Annie: 0. After Sunday's fishing, it appears that the Steelhead are also going to prevail, LOL.

Luckily, I have a couple of packages of fresh and locally caught walleye in my freezer. I know salmon is good for me and I'll toss a piece on the grill with some of Jessica's lime chipotle glaze and be pretty happy, but I'd rather have the walleye.

Terri, given the fact that I haven't really decided yet WHAT I think about this issue, I've been looking all over for information and I agree that you can find nearly anything you're looking for on the Web. I think everyone just has to wade through it, consider the source the information came from and make an informed decision. Sigh. It should be easier to know, shouldn't it?

That's why I'm counting on my local fishermen to provide me with salmon. Fortunately, several are willing to swap their freshly caught salmon for some of my homegrown beef, making it possible for me to avoid buying salmon altogether. More salmon are caught out of Lake Michigan than many parts of the Pacific Northwest, but it's illegal to sell, it's sport fishing only. So, I barter.

Annie

I don't want to complicate matters, but just a reminder that wild salmon are few and far between. If we're going to compare salmon, then there are at least three categories: Wild salmon, hatchery salmon and farmed salmon.

The salmon that's caught isn't necessarily "wild"; the differences are significant. Wild salmon suffer because of the misconception that hatchery salmon are a suitable substitute.

Carol

There is also a huge difference in "non-wild" salmon.
Most of the Atlantic farmed salmon we get here is much less flavorful than the stuff sold as wild.
But my fishmonger (don't you love that word? somebody on the forum used it the other day so I thought I would too) has a "Scottish organic salmon" that I prefer to the "wild." She doesn't call it farmed, but just explains to customers where it comes from. It's raised in huge pens that are moved frequently to new areas of ocean. It's deep-colored and full-flavored, with lovely texture.

I have not researched this subject myself , rather I have relied on the information provided by my fishmonger. I have no idea if he is right but he really knows his fish and has been in business a long time.

He maintains that farm raised can be just as good or better than wild caught. It depends on the quality of the farming operation.

He is very particular on what farm raised fish he buys, and his prices reflect it! He refuses to carry any fish or seafood from China, Viet Nam etc. becasue of questionable standards and practices.

His advice to me has been to avoid any farm raised fish that is sold in your local chain grocery stores , especially if it is on sale. The price point they offer it at, even given their volume discounts , suggests to him that it is a poor quality farm raised. The exception is Costco. He says their farm raised salmon is of a very high quality.

Despite what he says I tend to stick with his wild caught product , I just like the taste and texture better. I do avoid all fish and seafood from SE Asia.

Ack Gina I'm sorry you and anyone else see this as a 'hot' topic. I choose to see it as an informational one. There are many more things for me to become upset over, and salmon just isn't one of them. I'll keep reading this thread, but I implore everyone to grab a nice warm mug of tea or coffee and relax..

I know one can find information for both sides of any topic, all over the web.

Annie - wasn't walleye what we tried to cook when I was there? I pretty much ruined it because I had no clue what it was?

Carol I've never heard of 'hatchery' vs farmed vs wild...so yes, please DO complicate things!

Cloudy, I'm a bit confused as to why the pens are moved. Jimster, above, says 'Atlantic salmon is raised in large pens which are constantly flushed with tons of cold sea water. The ocean is large'.

Jimster - I caught something above (ar ar ar pun intended) you typed - that MBA is 'pretty picky in their speculation of things which may possibly contaminate farmed salmon, but not concerned about contaminants in pond raised catfish or tilapia.' I don't know about catfish (not kosher), but I did read about tilapia, and I linked a 36 page report that put me to sleep a couple of times, and I believe contaminants are discussed.

Chase funny about Costco. Their salmon (farmed) is the only kind that looks good, and I do buy it when I have crowds to feed.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tilapia report

I can't speak to other areas, but here on the West Coast 4 out of 5 salmon in the rivers are "hatched" rather than naturally spawned.

It's kind of the equivalent of keeping an endangered species alive only in zoos. We lose genetic diversity when the majority of the salmon are, shall we say, domesticated. Hatchery fish are bred to survive in hatcheries but they're weaker as adults. When they're released, if they breed with naturally spawned salmon, that weakness is transmitted to the next generation. The result is fewer salmon because they don't have the strength to survive the rigors of the adult stage. These salmon are also more susceptible to parasites, which again is transmitted to wild stock.

Environmentally another issue is hatchery salmon are bred and released on a schedule which may or may not correspond to ocean capacity. Wild salmon follow natural cycles which vary from region to region, stream to stream. What's that old commercial? Don't mess with Mother Nature.

OK, I'm very, very calm. I'm having my tea, LOL. I think it's an interesting subject too and I'm not at all bothered that there are differences of opinion. It keeps life interesting.

Carol

I'm having coffee right now and am finding this thread immensely interesting. I read an article in my local paper (Sacramento Bee) the other day about California shutting down the fishing season for chinook salmon, and I live near the Nimbus Hatchery for salmon & steelhead trout. The American River Salmon Festival is held there every year.

I've read a few articles and seen a few TV shows about farmed salmon, but I think this thread will be most informative. So, thank you Jessy for starting this up. I'm eager to learn more.

Nimbus Hatchery:
http://dfg.ca.gov/fish/hatcheries/nimbus/index.asp

Here is a link that might be useful: Shutdown of Chinook Salmon Fishing

Jessy, a lot of farmed salmon is raised in estuaries, where there is, I guess, much less vigorous flushing out. As to why the pens in the open ocean must be moved, I'll ask the fish lady if I see her tomorrow. How deep the pens are would be critical, I think; below the level of the waves the sea may be very calm, and the droppings simply drop and stay there. Whether that matters for the health of the fish would also depend on the depth of the water, right?

Nope, Jessica, that was steelhead, a native trout. It was already ruined, LOL, because it's very strong. I pretty much only like it smoked or cooked with lots of seasoning.

And, just as I read this thread, I got my email from Eating Well, with a very informative article about the wild vs farm salmon debate, from the health angle to the environmental angle to the theory that if we choose to eat farmed Atlantic salmon it very well may destroy the wild populations to the point where it's all we're going to be able to eat because everything else is gone. Is that true? Darned if I know, but here is the link, decide for yourself.

annie

Here is a link that might be useful: Wild vs. Farm Raised Salmon (Eating Well)

"The most contaminated samples coming from Scotland." - EJBIL

"But my fishmonger has a "Scottish organic salmon" that I prefer to the "wild." - Christine

Maybe contaminants taste good? LOL.

It's been about a year since I stopped eating tuna when there was a report that even top Sushi places were serving tuna that had levels of mercury that made it unfit for human consumption.

Something tells me I should stop reading this thread or else salmon will be next on my list. That would make me sad.

Carol and Cloudy, gotcha. Shambo I'll look at your link.

Annie I read that article (hint to those who haven't clicked yet: start on page five or so). Um are sea lice kosher? Just kidding. The operative term for me in that article is 'forsaking farmed salmon for wild might actually press the salmon aquaculture industry to change.' Speak up with your wallet, which ever side of the debate we fall on! Too bad we can't choose which Heparin to buy (another story, google 'chinese heparin')

fenworth/James: reminds me of folks who don't drink milk or give it to their kids because of some of the problems with milk. Overlooking the fact that the calcium and protein benefits outweigh the cons. That may or may not apply here.

Gina how is your blood pressure (or are your fingers in your ears 'la la la'). Don't answer that, I'm just baiting you (another groaner from EJ hee hee).

Okay I just asked the question about each side being able to produce googled references on any subject, because well..I don't have hours to sit and read both sides..I'd rather have a trust worthy authority direct me. LOL

and it's true..you can certainly find a back up to anyone's side of any arguement on the net.

So then Carol, our elementary school got with a local hatchery and was given 500 salmon eggs (last year) and 250 this year to raise in a tank at school, then they are/were released in a local stream. Is that wrong? Last year was a huge success as far as getting the eggs to hatch and the release at the stream. Most of the eggs hatched and the tank became over crowded quickly! This year they went with half seeing as so many surived last year, and it was really difficult to maintain the water toxin levels. This year they aquired the half, and yesterday I noticed only 2 or 3 alive and "thriving"....They had trouble this year with teachers keeping up with the cleaning duties!!!! Such a waste. And a huge lesson for the kids..although, I don't think it's been expressed to the 4th grade classes (their Steward Project), the "real" reason the success rate is so awful.
Does this then do the opposite of what the "premise" was? To add and strengthen these particular salmons numbers in the wild? Without #2 son here I can't tell you which species it is. We were in on the project last year when he was in 4th grade.

Gina,

They must have heard your plea wrt DDT.

Since 2006, the World Health Organization (WHO) has been recommending the use of indoor spraying of DDT in areas of chronic malaria transmission. The Environment Defense Fund, Sierra Club, and the Endangered Wildlife Trust now endorse the use of indoor residual spraying of DDT.

From WHO's website:

"We must take a position based on the science and the data," said Dr Arata Kochi, Director of WHO’s Global Malaria Programme. “One of the best tools we have against malaria is indoor residual house spraying. Of the dozen insecticides WHO has approved as safe for house spraying, the most effective is DDT.”

I read the Eating Well article, and it convinced me to continue boycotting farm raised salmon. I love salmon, and I want the wild populations to remain safe. I've paid as much as $27 a pound for Copper River wild caught salmon, which is more than I pay for Ahi sashimi. The Santa Monica Seafood Company has the best salmon I've found in L.A., and even at prices that high (or higher), they can't always keep it in stock. I haven't seen it there for a while, but I will check back in May.

Lars

My bil volunteered with WHO for 25yrs as an entomologist working on the 'river blindness' epidemic in Africa. One time he told an anecdotal story of villagers who got their hands on a surplus 55 gal drum of pesticide. They dumped it in a small contained lake and after a period of time harvested the fish that floated to the top. He said it was very difficult to convince them this was not a good way to fish.

Maybe the villager were right. Maybe the cancer risk (1 in a 10?, 1 in 100?) was an acceptable cost as they understood it. After all, the avg life expectancy in this area was around 19.

For this discussion, the EPA fish consumption guideline is based on:

'the number of meals an individual should not exceed in a month in order not to exceed an added cancer risk of one in 100,000 for these substances (PCBs, dioxins, toxaphene) over a range of concentrations. A meal is defined as an eight-ounce portion of fish, and the number of meals per month applies to an adult consuming fish over a 70 year period.' (http://www.albany.edu/ihe/salmonstudy/recommendations.html)

I still eat Costco salmon, just not the 2 to 3 times a week I used to. Below is a link to a chart showing EPA recommended salmon consumption based on geographical origin of the fish

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.albany.edu/ihe/salmonstudy/graph1.html

Oh, my goodness, Scotland is close to "no times a month."
More questions for the fish lady. She is very particular about quality; I go to the market she's in just to buy fish, even though it's not convenient. I don't really want to review all the literature, though, heaven knows. So I won't know enough to ask the right questions. I'll try. Often she's cutting up a huge salmon and someone else waits on you, though.

zbach,

I don't get the significance of the story about Africans poisoning fish to this discussion. I don't think those folks were calculating risk/benefit ratios or even thinking in those terms. I think they saw it as an easy way to get some food and were oblivious to the risk.

Jim

Jimster,

I could imagine the villagers making an economic decision about eating the fish against the protestation of the WHO workers, whether or not it actually happened that way.

When I choose to eat something, I usually have a quick internal dialouge. "Will this taste good? will it be good for me? Will it harm me, and if so when and in what manner?"

If the answer to last question is a .00001 increase in cancer probability 20 years down the road, I may not be very moved by that. Heck I'm already 56 and am likely to die of some other pathology (as the villagers may have thought). Yet it's something I'd want to be aware of if I was choosing meals for my family.

The best we can do it about risk is make informed choices, and everyone's choice is personal.

zbach, I think that's sorta my point about the "both sides" information on the www. Your last line. I think sometimes it's hard to decifer which infomation is the one that gives you the most information.

I don't know the situation of the villagers mentioned, but I would think that if you're hungry enough, a possible consequence is less significant than filling the belly now.

Terri, I certainly don't have all the answers. As I understand it, for a long time hatchery salmon were regarded as the "salvation" of declining wild stocks. The advantage of hatchery salmon is the numbers can be kept up (or even increased) without removing dams, reducing logging (because when trees are logged near streams the temperature goes up and heavy rains cause mudslides) or taking any number of other measures which are costly and detrimental to one group or another.

It took time to recognize that hatchery salmon were not an unmixed blessing. The big thing for me is they weaken an already depleted stock; maybe more of an issue is that hatchery salmon make us complacement. We see the numbers and think there's no problem. The term conservation groups use is "artificial abundance."

But that doesn't mean all the hatcheries should be blown up! They have a role in the restoration and maintenance of salmon stocks, if some of their deficiencies can be corrected. For more on hatchery reform check the link.

That might be something some of the teachers would be interested in as a learning tool.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Trout Unlimited on Hatchery Reform

It's such a tough call for me regarding all seafood. I try to use the seafood guide by Monterey Bay Aquarium as Jessica noted. My preference would always be wild salmon because of what is fed to salmon in farmed operations.

But overall, there are three books that have deeply impacted our family's eating habits are: "Song for the Blue Ocean" by Carl Safina, "Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan, and "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" by Barbara Kingsolver.

A weird world we live in, when you have to research every bite of food you put in your mouth.

Ann

**************BREAKING NEWS*******************************

Jessica's internet is DOWN. She is rabid to get back to this discussion but CAN'T. This might be a nice opportunity to talk about her. Use your own best judgment.

*********We now return you to your regular food fight************

Denise you are such a trouble maker. (grin).

They told us our phones and net wouldn't be up until the weekend. The kids were terrified. So was I....luckily we had both at 4:00AM. ~whew !

Well, damn. Looks like I may have to stop eating my Scottish organic salmon. Ignorance was bliss.
If any of you know something that contradicts the stuff in the link, please tell me.

Here is a link that might be useful: Green Guide - organic Scottish salmon

"reminds me of folks who don't drink milk or give it to their kids because of some of the problems with milk. Overlooking the fact that the calcium and protein benefits outweigh the cons. That may or may not apply here."

Jessy - I'm not sure how to read that, since I doubt that you would have started this thread if you didn't think that salmon safety might be a significant concern.

I would eat the wild over farmed just because I think in a couple years there won't be any wild salmon for most people. Enjoy now as tomorrow it will be gone.

: )
lyra

Darn it, I missed the chance to talk about Jessica while she wasn't here. Shoot.....(grin)

Unfortunately, Lyra, I agree. I would love to follow the "old ways" which say that when you are making an environmental decision you choose not only how you impact your world, but how you impact it 7 generations into the future. The elders were wiser than we knew.

Annie

James/fenworth (how should I address you?!?): that statement indicates that I'm keeping an open mind. Even though farmed salmon can be considered evil enough for me to avoid it, I recognize that the omega fats, PCB laden or not, may be of more benefit. Yes I started a discussion because I'm concerned about safety but I too don't want to follow blindly. Even though its easier.

Alas because of what Lyra said I'm avoiding wild. If I don't eat it, MAYBE it WILL be here tomorrow. Yeah right and there is a tooth fairy around here somewhere. Sigh.

For now I'm off wild AND farmed. If it comes served to me on a plate at a function, I'll eat it (with relish!) because it would otherwise go in the trash, even more of a waste.

I love this issue because I love fish. Great Lakes fish are my favorties, and people always ask me if I'm concerned about the toxins. Yes I am, but then I'm concerned in general about the environment, I've spent my life studying it. One of the main reasons I'm such and enviro is I think we're in danger of messing with the earth's ability to feed us in a high quality way. I'm lucky enough to have experienced wild gathered and home grown foods. I guess if you've never had it you won't miss it, which is the same way it goes with a lot of nature's pleasures. Anyway, I told my friends that I eat Big Lake fish as often as I can, because, "As goes my Lake, so go I." Having said that, I would never eat the perch my dad gets out of White Lake, one of the most polluted lakes in the country. I did a research paper on it in college, I know too much about it. I grew up swimming in that lake, which will happen nevermore.

This is a very complex issues. Salmon isn't the only fishery that is collapsing, we're going to see so many wild food sources collapse in this new millenium. (Not deer though!!!) Hence the market for farmed fish. Some operations are run well, some OK, some poorly. Fish farms can be a dreadful source of pollution, just like feedlots. It's a faustian bargain. As with everything, there's economic pressure to do things on the cheap and chuck the problems on to the next guy down the road or the next generation.

Know where your food comes from!!!

Sorry, I haven't held up my end of the conversation. After hours of surfing, I was a little burnt out on the topic and couldn't put my thoughts together clearly and concisely.

But don't worry. We aren't finished with this.

Jim

Jim, I so totally get that! I knew you weren't done (grin).

I almost hate to bring this up in the presence of such august foodies, but the easiest and cheapest source of wild salmon for many of us is out of a can. True, it's very difficult to barbecue, but in my home we buzz it in the blender, skin, bones and all, with some chopped onion, seasoning, and whatever salad dressing is handy. Makes a very quick, easy, and tasty sandwich fill or salad topping, and features all the nutritional advantages of fresh, with fewer of the political/environmental issues.

I'm a mid-continental type, from the heart of cattle country. Fresh seafood is for occasional coastal vacations, while steak is for grilling!

I absolutely concur on the nutritional advantages of canned salmon, but I just don't see how there are fewer "political/environmental issues."

Unless canned salmon comes from something other than salmon, the "issues" are the same. The only difference is it's pre-cooked and in a container.

Carol

Boy, eating fish sure can be complicated. It sounds like being vegetarian makes life a lot simpler. (Well, not really - it seems food consumption is getting more and more complicated all the time these days, if one wants to eat responsibly.)

Anyway, I'm joining this conversation late, but I read in Michael Pollan's book, the Omnivore's Dilemma, (or was it his latest book - well one of his books) that farmed salmon are fed a diet similar to that forced on feed lot fed animals. The problem with this is it actually changes the salmon's body chemistry or make up so that it's much less healthy to eat, just like feed lot cattle are much less healthy to eat than 100% pasture raised cattle. I don't have the book in front of me, so I'm afraid I'm going on memory of something I read several months ago, but just in case you wanted more complications added to your decision about whether to eat salmon, and which kind of salmon to eat, and where it should have come from, I thought I'd help you out.

I just read the Eating Well article, and the author didn't touch on this aspect of farm raised salmon, which I think is interesting. The author seemed to think that farm raised salmon didn't suffer in the omega 3 content, but Michael Pollan said the farm raised salmon had much less omega 3, and had more of the fats that are bad for you. I suspect that farm raised salmon that are fed an unnatural diet can't be as healthy to eat, even discounting the pollution aspect, as wild raised salmon. "You are," to paraphrase Pollan, "what you eat, and what it eats, too."

Sally

On the Seafood Watch Guide, Alaska wild salmon is on the best choices. The Marine Stewardship Council is another source for finding out if a fish is certified sustainable.

Jessy... our Trader Joes has Alaska wild salmon this week. I bought some yesterday.

Here is a link that might be useful: Marine Stewardship Council

Well, I didn't say there are no "issues" with canned fish, just fewer of them.

Salmon can be harvested and canned in remote areas where populations may be more stable. Once processed, it requires much less energy inputs to get it to market because it is not perishable. And in my family anyways, a satisfying serving size is considerably smaller than one would want if a fresh baked fillet was placed before us.

This is complicated. Maybe we should just discuss brownie recipes. In lieu of that, let's just for now try to focus on two aspects of the question, food quality and conservation.

Wasn't there someone who, early in the discussion, cited a large study published in Science magazine? I can't find that post now but the study is the most important one I am aware of. The full text can't be accessed at the Science web site without subscribing. It is available elsewhere on the web.

The study sampled and compared wild and farmed salmon from many regions around the world. The level of PCBs and other dangerous substances was found to be "significantly" higher in farmed salmon. The word "significant", when used in this sort of document is understood to mean statistically significant, which is not the same as the every day usage. Statistical significance means that a difference between two samples can be proven mathematically at a certain criterion. It does not mean the difference is important. If I sprinkle 2 grains of salt on my order of fries and you sprinkle 4, the difference obviously is statistically significant. But is it important? Neither one is enough salt to affect the taste at all. Significant but not important.

The study found, at some locations, levels of certain toxins at 10 or so parts per billion. At those levels, differences of say, 4 parts per billion would be significant. But important? FDA standards allow hundreds of times that concentration.

But that is not the end of the controversy. Some, including the authors of the study, prefer the standards of the EPA over those of the FDA. EPA standards are much stricter. This is where science and politics collide. One might think that the "Food" and Drug Administration would take precedence over the "Environmental" Protection Administration in the matter of food safety. But that would be too simple.

I have to observe that, although the importance to science of a "not statistically significant" finding is equal to, often greater than, one of "statistically significant". The importance in press releases is not. Everyone wants the results of their work to be "significant".

Well, that is the health issue in a nutshell, a very small nutshell. The conservation issue is more difficult.

Jim

Here is a link that might be useful: Global Assessment of Organic Contaminants in Farmed Salmon

Here is a review of Review of the study, "Global Assessment of Organic Contaminants in Farmed Salmon". Perhaps the authors of the study would disagree with Dr. Santerre's conclusions, but it is a thought provoking review.

Jim