The collagen that makes it jell is from skin and connective tissue...gristle.
Chicken wings give me that "stock you can walk on"...but there is a lushious flavor that comes from the bones.
Linda C

Chicken feet.

LOL, Peppi, I agree, it's in the feet. It adds the gelatinous quality and a lovely color.

However, I am a big believer in taste. I love it when something looks good, smells good, feels good. I'm in heaven when it tastes good, no matter the appearance.

And so, Joanna, if it tastes wonderful, if the mouth feel is luxurious, then I think it's perfect. Perfection can be different things to different people.

Annie

lindac, since I used a whole chicken that was already cut up, would the way it is cut up by the butcher affect how much collagen gets leached out? Do they get rid of connective tissue? I did leave the skin on. Perhaps if I included many more chicken wings with the chicken?

pkramer, I already know about chicken feet, however, as I said in my post, I do not, as of yet, have a source for them. Thanks though.

Joanna

This is info on got on file but can't remember where I got it. I think it's from a cookbook I have entitled "The Creative Cooking Course".

Some points for making stock are:

-YouÂll want to use at least as much meat as bones. With too many bones, the stock may become "gluey" Â good only as a base for thick sauces and gravies. Finally, donÂt try mixing leftover cooked meat and bones with uncooked. It clouds the stock.

-Cover the ingredients completely with COLD water. It helps draw out the flavor, vitamins and minerals.
Slowly bring the mixture to a boil over medium heat. A heavy scum will form on top. Skim off the scum with a large spoon or ladle. By now the liquid in the pot will have reduced. With the liquid still at the boiling point, again add enough cold water to cover the ingredients in the pot. Reduce the heat, and from this point on do not allow the stock to return to a boil. Reboiling will cause fat particles to be incorporated into the stock, producing a cloudy liquid. July let the stock simmer for several hours with a slight bubble over steady, low heat.

-For seasoning, it is suggested a "bouquet garni" consisting of several complementary, preferably fresh, herbs  usually parsley stalks with leaves, sprigs of thyme and bay leaves, with an optional sprig of marjoram. DonÂt use powdered herbs  they cloud the stock. Tie them together with string or put them into a small cheesecloth bag for easy handling.

BASIC CHICKEN STOCK

1 4-lb hen
1 lb. chicken wings
2 Tbsp salt
4 peppercorns
5 quarts water
½ bay leaf
Pinch of thyme
6 green onions with tops
4 large carrots, quartered
2 stalks celery with leaves, cut in 2-inch pieces
1 large onion, studded with 3 cloves

Place chicken, salt, peppercorns and water in a stock pot. Bring to a boil over medium heat, removing scum from the surface. Cover the pot and reduce the heat. Simmer for 1 hour, skimming frequently. Add remaining ingredients; cover and cook for about 2 hours and 30 minutes. Skim off fat; season to taste with additional salt and pepper. Remove chicken and vegetables from stock. Strain stock through wet muslin. Chill and remove fat before using.

Annie, yes the stock is wonderful (!) but I am chasing the dragon :-)

I guess I will just keep experimenting.

At least until I can get some chicken feet (I have no idea where, every store I've been in that has a butcher looks at me strange when I ask if they have them. However, I live in an area where the waiter at the one sushi place around tells me that most people from the area will only order california rolls or tempura (I am way into the sashimi, yummmmm). So I guess I need to shop in a more culinary-diverse area.

Till then, I will try the chicken wings, lots of them!

Joanna

Khandi, thank you for the recipe, I am going to try it except in the pressure cooker. I am just so enamored with it, I made amazing stock in 30 minutes cooking time (it took a bit for the pressure to fall after). However, perhaps that did not get out enough gelatin, I don't know.

Oh how I would love to be able to make a perfect stock, I adore making homemade soups and when it is for company, I usually buy stock like that Glace stuff, because I never feel like my stock is good enough for company. However, with the pressure cooker, that changed in an instant.

Joanna

I'm sure there are a lot of 'right' ways to make stock. Just a matter of experimenting a little to find the method that works best for you. The one I use is very similar to khandi's, but there are a few different twists that will
give you some options to play around with.

Since you have to babysit it a little (at least, if it's not in a pressure cooker), I usually get two batches going at once to make the time more worthwhile. Double the yield for just a little more effort. I put one whole chicken in each pot, then divide a 12-pack of wings between the the two. That will give you roughly 5# of chicken in each. In a pinch, I've made broth with a whole chicken only, but it seems to me there's a noticeable difference. Those wings definitely add something.

Cover with cold water and add the following to EACH pot:

2 stalks celery, each cut into several pieces (the leafier, the better! most of the flavor is in the leaves)
2 or 3 carrots, cut into sections (scrub and trim off ends, but leave unpeeled)
1 or 2 garlic cloves, peeled and halved
1/2 bunch Italian parsley (this is a wonderful addition! the 'bunches' we get here are usually large, so I split one between the 2 pots. if it's a small bunch, use the whole thing)
1 large onion, quartered (I slice off the ends but leave it unpeeled. the onion skin will add really nice color)
1 large bay leaf
6 - 8 whole peppercorns

The thing I *never* add is salt. Imo, it gives you so much more flexibility if you leave it out. For instance, you mentioned that you love to make soup. If you're preparing something like chicken noodle soup, salted stock as a base will be fine. But what if you're making baked potato soup that calls for adding bacon and cheese? Or something cooked with a ham bone for flavor? If the broth is salted, adding other ingredients with a high sodium content can easily take it over the line. If it's 'pure' to begin with, then you can add as much or as little as the other ingredients dictate.

The only (tiny) drawback is that it won't taste very good perfectly 'plain'. So when you test to make sure it's okay, just sprinkle a small amount of salt into the spoon so that your tastebuds can judge it properly.

The only other way my method differs from khandi's is that I was taught that you should always keep the water at a simmer, never allowing it to reach the boiling point. But since you're using a pressure cooker, that would seem to be a moot point for you...

Skimming is essential to keep the broth from being cloudy. But you couldn't skim using a p/c.

To make the broth extra-rich, I just let it simmer longer. If you have the patience to let it cook for over 3 hours, you *will* be rewarded. :) But, as you said, in a p/c the bones just disintegrate.

So maybe everything I've told you is inapplicable and I just should have kept my mouth shut...lol

sm

Actually, sm, after reading these posts I am going to try making it long-style again. I have printed out both your and khandi's recipes. The pc has given me the confidence that I CAN make good stock, so I will try it again, long-style, and I will make sure to keep it under a boil.

I just made another stock (in the pc) using 6 chicken wings and six slice of beef legs bones. It is cooling very quickly outside, and it appears to have more gelatin. I am using this one to make chicken tortilla soup for a get-together tomorrow, so we'll see how this turns out, it will be my first time making a soup out of pc stock :-)

Joanna

I don't use a whole chicken in making stock. The meat of a chicken that has been cooked long enough to make a good stock is way over cooked. Sure, you can remove the meat from the bones and put the bones back in the pot, but that's a lot of trouble.
I save all extra bones, backs and wing tips....and when I want to make stock I buy wings and add to the "extra" stuff. I save almost no meat...maybe I might pick a little off the wings, but mostly I cook it to mush...not using a pressure cooker.
After 6 to 8 hours of very slow simmering, of chicken bits and celery, onion, carrot, leek, parsley, parsnip, whole peppercorns, bay leaves, sweet potato and lemon...I have a very rich and flavorfull stock that you can walk on.
Linda C

Like LindaC, I use backs, necks, wing tips, various trimmings. I also save the bones from roasted chickens, etc. Everything gets saved in the freezer until I have "enough", either enough time or enough parts. LOL.

I often toss everything in my crockpot and let it go on low all day, the house smells wonderful that way and I don't have to watch so closely. I usually roast all the "parts" before I start, it adds much to the flavor.

I make mine with carrots, onions, celery, bay leaf, salt, black peppercorns and some fresh parsley. I'll add leeks, shallots or parsnips if I have them, but they aren't my usual ingredients.

Simmer it all day, strain it out and refrigerate it. Skim off the fat and you'll have chicken jello. I then can mine in the pressure canner and have it on hand.

That said, some of my less thick batches tasted better than my thicker ones and to me it's all about the flavor, that's my own particular "dragon".

Hey, I wonder if I could make stock from dragons? Let me know if you catch up with that one, will you? LOL

Annie

Joanna, I make stock every two weeks or so in my pressure cooker as a "bonus by-product" of making dog food. Because you shouldn't feed a dog onions, and because I will later add veggies cooked for a short time in the PC for Brockley's food. my stock is just meat, bones and water. The PC does produce wonderfully flavored and clear stock. I use 5 or six pounds of bone in chicken thighs, breasts or a mix, cover with water in the PC and then cook at high pressure for 90 minutes. At that point I ladle out two to four cups for stock and strain, chill and freeze it, and continue with the dog food with the remaining stock and meat and bones.

A few months ago I learned something really great from Linda C, she mentioned that when she is poaching multiple pans of chicken to use in cooking at her church, she poaches the first batch and then the next and the next in the SAME broth and has a wonderful stock at the end. So that is what I have been doing, I'll use 2 to 4 cups of my frozen stock as part of the liquid for the next batch. By the second time it definitely gels when it is chilled. I then freeze that batch and use part of it in the next batch. Yep, like Annie's, it's chicken jello.

Another thing you might consider is that you don't lose a lot of liquid in the PC so you might want to try pressure cooking your stock and straining it and then simmering it for another 45 minutes to an hour in an uncovered pan. That should concentrate it some more and it would gel more easily.

If you have a Mexican or an Asian supermarket where you live you will find chicken feet there. I have yet to try them but I will.

Lee

Collagen is a water insoluble protein that holds animal cell tissues together. It is literally "the glue" that prevents cells from literally falling apart. It is present in all animal cells but is especially high in cartilage, tendons, and bones. When collagen is hydrolyzed (means reacted with water), it forms the product we know as as gelatin. Elastin is another insoluble protein that is found in high abundance in the skin tissue cells. To make a good stock one must convert these insoluble proteins into a water soluble form. One can do this by boiling at 212 for a period of time or pressure boiled at 240F for a shorter period of time. In either scenario if you boil until the stock material is literally "falling apart" (i.e. you have dissolved the cell glue into water), you will have a good stock.

Keep in mind that there is some chemistry going on here. Different temperatures and pressures will get different results....and can result in a completely different stock product. The temperature of water that is simmering is lower than the temperature of boiling water. The temperature of boiling water at room atmospheric pressure is lower(212F) than the temperature of boiling water in a cooker set at 10 psi pressure (240F). Different temperatures and pressures account for the observed differences in quality of stock.....gel or no gel, mouth feel, flavor, total dissolved solids, etc. Which procedure is better is a matter of personal choice and preference.

Bottom line:

Boiling skin, cartridge, tendons, and bones in the presence of water will convert proteins into "water soluble" compounds.......this is where that good mouth feel comes from.....from the dissolved solids material (the cell glue). Flavor comes in from the type ingredients used to prepare the stock. Simmering, boiling, steaming, and pressure cooking can give slightly different results. IMO good mouth feel and flavor trumps gelling every time.

Chicken gumbo secret #3:

For the best chicken gumbo, boil chicken until cooked...but not falling apart. De-bone chicken into bite size pieces and set the meat aside. Take all of the remains from the chicken de-boning operation and pressure until those remains are literally "falling apart". This pressure cooking of chicken parts seems to somehow capture the essence of good chicken flavor. Stain the cooked parts, then add this super rich flavor component with the reserved chicken meat back to the finished gumbo. It is a mouth feel and chicken flavor thing that your pallet will immediately notice and appreciate. Talk about good.....

Dan

I save and freeze bones and carcasses and make my stock with those. I always roast my bones until brown before I start my stock. I also usually though not always roast whatever vegetables I'm putting in the stock as well. I add onions, garlic, celery and carrots, sea salt, peppercorns and of course cold water to cover. I simmer it on the woodstove for hours, skimming the foam from time to time. Then I strain and then refrigerate it to get the fat to solidify so I can skim it.

My stock always comes out gelatinous.

My secret ingredients are:
For chicken stock - I add the juice of a fresh lemon to the stock at the beginning. I started doing this about 20 years ago when I saw my mother in law add it to her stock. She claims the acid in the lemon juice leaches the gelatin from the bones.

For beef stock - I add some balsamic vinegar to the stock at the beginning. My theory is if the acid in the lemon juice breaks down the gelatin in the chicken bones then the acid in the vinegar should do the same for the beef bones.

moosemac, those are the sorts of tips I live to hear. Thanks for offering them!

sm

You might enjoy this information and recipes. See link below.

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Broth Is Beautiful

Wow you guys, thank you so much for your replies. I have certainly learned a lot from this thread.

linda, you are right, the meat doesn't taste flavorfull after cooking that long, but that doesn't stop me from leaning over the bones and devouring the hot bits of meat, burning myself in the process.

annie, dragon stock -- YUM. I'll keep working on that one. Food for princesses!

Lee, thank you for the tip on the mexican market. It worked!

Dan, that was an amazing mouthful of information you gave me. It must make experimenting much more fun, when you know the science behind what you are doing...perhaps more success and less screw-ups.

moosemac, noted about the vinegar/lemon juice, great tip. Thank you!

So, guess what -- per Lee's suggestion, I found chicken feet in a small meat shop in a mercado where nobody was speaking english. Pulled out my college spanish, and then had all the native spanish-speakers in line and behind the counter giggling because I ordered "pies de pollo" instead of the correct "patas de pollo" (chicken paws, not chicken feet! HA! I'm such a dork).

The feet are so lovely, super clean and and with a whitish pink skin. I can't wait to try them in stock. Too bad I have to go to a thing tonight or that's what I would be doing. Excited to make chicken stock on a Saturday night...I can't even imagine what my 24 year old self would have thought about that one :-)

Anyway, thanks again everyone! Here's to great stock every time...

Joanna

Collagen isn't just in gristle, it's in the bones and connective tissue. It's the stuff that holds the bones together, actually. A well developed stock will leave you with chicken bones that will literally crumble when you squeeze them.

There are two ways to get that collagen out of the bones...

1. Long and slow. Simmering for 6 to 8 hours in a stock pot, skimming when scum builds up, etc.

2. Short and fast. For this, you need a pressure cooker. I made my first chicken stock in my pressure cooker a few months ago, and I'm hooked. About 45 minutes of cooking time gets me to the point where 8 hours of stockpot gets me. The only problem with that is that my pressure cooker isn't all that big.

The only problem with a pressure cooker stock is that it's not as clear as a stockpot stock, so I have to strain it a lot more closely to get all of the fines out. For that I have a couple of linen tea towels that work wonders.

I always keep an eye out for sales on chicken wings. Sometimes in my area they will be as low as 79 cents a pound. Most times they're close to $2 a pound, which is ludicrous. But, wings make a great stock, especially when combined with other chicken parts that have more meat. Lots of collagen in those wing tips.