I really like this layout! I concur with several of the concerns raised, but I think they are all manageable. In particular, the island seating is tight, but not terrible. Could you make that run of cabinets behind the seating 18" deep? It might help you achieve the unfitted look and give you needed seating space at the same time. Try sliding a current table 39" from the wall and try sitting while someone walks behind you. It will feel tight, but does it feel too tight? Would 6" from that cabinet make enough of a difference?

We had a very similar issue in our layout, and I ended up making the island narrower (but still a nice 40" wide) and losing that extra storage between the main base cabs and the overhang. Losing that, or at least narrowing it a few inches, would be another alternative for giving you the space you need for seating.

You are soooooo close! :)

Oh, yay! It sounds like I'm pretty much there. Finally! I can't believe I started this in September and it's now mid-January. :-) Ah, life as a TKO.

Wanted to respond to a couple of comments:

Water heater: my contractor really wants to move it out of the kitchen, and thinks it can be done without too much trouble, so we're going tankless! Woohoo! No more water heater making my cheerios stale. :-)

Holligator, I had made the beverage center cabinet run 24" deep to accommodate the beverage center, but I suppose I could use a 15" bev center (probably sufficient for our needs anyway -- we're not wine collectors), and turn it so that it opens into the Dining Room, allowing the cabinet run to be 18" deep. I could put a 3" pullout there to hold non-refrigerated bottles or other items. I kind of like that. That would give me 45" between the island and the beverage center, plus a little extra storage. Does this solve the island seating/aisle space problem? I could move the island over closer to the fridge wall, but I'm concerned about getting much closer than 48" since I have so much going on in that area. If I shrink the island size down, I would lose my tupperware and baking supplies storage, which would be an issue since the island is taking the place of a wall of cabs.

Footballmom, I guess I'm not sure what your concern about the overhang is. I have a 15" overhang planned, which everyone tells me is standard. I am planning on stools that will tuck under that and out of the aisle completely when not in use. Since the island is so close to the dining room table anyway, I expect that area will primarily be for the kids or for keeping the cook company. I'm fairly certain that the one seat on the end close to the beverage center will be rarely used at the same time that the beverage center is used.

Regarding the fridge placement, I put it there instead of further down that row so that the MW would be directly across from it, and the DW on the other end of the island, close to all of the main dish, tupperware, cutlery and glass storage, which I have located in the dining room areas for easy table setting and putting away.

Buehl, I could put the fridge where I have the dishes hutch (we're replacing the ugly 1980s crystal built in with a dishes hutch), but then I have a refrigerator in the dining room? (I was planning on a SS fridge instead of paneled since I don't want to have to worry about what to do with the panels when I need to replace the fridge.) If I do move the fridge into the dining room (weird, no?), then the tupperware and stemware locations are not as convenient to the DW/cleanup sink area. I would then swap the MW and DW, but then the cleanup zone is right in the midst of the cooking/prep zone, isn't it?

Should I swap the bulk storage and the food pantry locations? If I swap the food pantry hutch for the bulk storage closet, the message center area winds up way over in the corner and is not as convenient to the front door or the living room or family room, but the dry foods would be in between the snack and prep zones. What do you think?

Corner prep sink: Wasn't expecting negatives on the the prep sink. I liked having fridge, then nice landing space, then prep sink (with pullout spray for filling pots), then nice prep space, then range, all in an L. I see the majority of my prep work occuring in that corner, with the island more for baking, projects and cleanup. In our last house the corner was a total dead-end space, and with a bulk storage closet, a lazy susan would be kind of useless, anyway. If not the corner, then where should the prep sink go?

One last question: Is there room for a little TV? Where would it go? I would love (read: totally unecessary luxury item) to have something in there so that I can watch girly movies while I'm baking.

Re TV, you can put a small flatscreen just about anywhere (i.e., on a counter) if you don't need a cable/satellite box. If you do need a box, then plan a place for the box where it'll be out of your way and set the TV near it. That is, I'd suggest either building in a shelf for the box, or attach it under cabinet with a removable bracket. They have brackets with swing arms you can put TV's on too, which, while not beautiful, can be very functional.

The great thing about the new TV's is not only do they take a very small footprint, they're also really light, so you can move yours around to see better while you work, or unplug it and stash it somewhere if it's in your way.

My first thought for placement would be to the right of the range, which is out of your way most of the time. Another possibility might be behind the prep sink. ;) Then you could see it from the island seating.

I did some research about the undercabinet flip down units awhile ago, and wasn't impressed, but that's something else you could look into.

Your solution with the beverage fridge sounds good, especially for when the kids get older and potentially lazier :) (As in not wanting to let someone by and sending them around into your workspace.)

While I think Buehl is always right ( :) ) I agree most with "I think that as it is, it's a good layout." If you have a sudden inspiration, go for it, but otherwise I think it's time to stop torturing yourself and live with the layout awhile. Make some life size models and test it out. Arrange all your stuff in lists and make sure everything fits. Admire it, love it, and let it sink in. Then you'll know if this is it :)

GOOD JOB!!

The 2 things that stick out most to me are:

The DR table is too close to the island. I would move it south and find another spot for the buffet. Also, where it is placed now looks like you weren't sure if it should be in the "kitchen" area or the "dining" area. I personally think it should be centered in between the 2 door openings on the left and right.

Maybe if you move the table, that will help that it looks like the island is not centered in the room. It could jsut be my preference, but I would want it centered length wise from end to end of the "kitchen" part. I can't really tell how "off" it is, if at all(again because of the DR table), but it looks like it should shift slightly towards the range end. You have 48" of space there, so you could probably give up 6" if you had to. Just a thought. Looks a little crowded at the south end.

Mahlgold, thanks for the input. You're right; the dining room IS crowded, but it'll probably stay that way. It's only 11' end to end, and the dining room furniture is probably here to stay. I may decide to get rid of the buffet once I have the beverage center set up (since this may be much better storage), but I'm not there yet because the buffet is this funky 1940s thing with original bakelite drawer pulls and it makes a nice place to hang art over. Of course, it may look pretty shabby once I get the nice new cabs put in and maybe I'll love it less.

I have the island going to the end of the kitchen (the end would be where the dividing wall between the two rooms currently is). If I get the Five Star range I'm considering, I will be able to move it up about 6" closer to the range, but that's about it.

Refrigerator/Bulk Closet/Dish Hutch: I suggested sliding the refrigerator down to try to address bottleneck issues. I was thinking that if the refrigerator was at the end, it could be accessed from the kitchen for prep, cooking, & cleanup and also from the DR and rest of the house without interfering with the working part of the kitchen. But, if you're not paneling it, you're right, it might look too kitchen-y for the DR. Rather than get a paneled/built-in refrigerator, you could "build" an area for it out of paneled end pieces (3/4"). Make the refrigerator alcove out of the paneled ends, put a full-depth cabinet above (6' off the floor or so), and you'll have an alcove that any 42" x 72" refrigerator will fit into with a built-in look.

I forgot about the Message Center--it probably should be readily accessible for everyone as well.

Hmmm...here's an idea that might address the bottle neck issue but still keep your Sink/DW/MW configuration that you have now...which I think is a good one. It requires removing the walls surrounding the dish hutch & bulk items closet though....

Starting from the south end of the west wall (with walls removed):

* Message Center: 24" x 12" cabinet(s) turned 90o so it faces the DR. Either
.....Tall cabinet w/doors on top and bottom
..OR
.....Upper & base cabinet w/countertop
* 42" refrigerator
* 36" Dish Hutch
* 24" Utility cabinet (to replace the 15" bulk items closet)

Base Cabinets, after utility cabinet:
* 29" drawer base (or whatever you want)
* 36" drawer base
* 36" corner sink base (that's what they call the sink bases w/an 18" face for the sink...corner to corner it's 36"--I know b/c they just delivered one to my house this week!)

Wall/upper cabinets, after utility cabinet:
* 24" book storage
* 42" upper
* 36" hinged corner

You'll note that you actually gained (1) more space in the utility cabinet than in the bulk items closet and (2) more work & storage space to the left of the prep sink...approx 65"!

I put in the Five Star Range and moved the island north 6".

I also put in the 18" deep cabinets on the sliding door wall that you are considering, with the Beverage Chiller turned 90o so it faces the DR...just like the Message Center. I left the upper cabinets 12" deep.

BTW...The aisle clearances will actually be about 1-1/4" to 2-1/2" less when you factor in the countertop overhangs.

What do you think?

I have a roaring headache and couldn't read through everything, but I'm looking at the plan. The island, IMHO, is too wide. I would reduce the island width by 12-15" by losing the storage that faces the ends and overhang. This leaves 18-21" for overhang (I know 15" is technically 'enough,' but I'd want more so the sink and faucet aren't right in someone's plate/face).

I also think you could do less than a 48" aisle between the island and range, and maybe cut 6" from the island, so that you have more room between the island and the table seating.

I might also get rid of the 12" cabinet between the fridge and the prep sink, move the fridge down, and enlarge the pantry by that 12". This would make it so the sink and fridge standing areas don't overlap.

Are you having a fridge in the beverage area? If not, I might consider flipping the island so that the seating is next to the fridge and faces the outside view.

Do you realize you're prepping toward the wall, while you have French doors and a view of your yard behind you?

If you would like a window at the prep sink, could you add a window in the corner? I think the range wall is an exterior wall.

Just at thought.

Well, carp. So many pleasant comments this morning and now I'm back to shuffling things around again. I'm going to have to play with this a bit. Not sure I like the fridge in the DR, but I do like the counter run. Maybe make that spot the closet (or a utility cab to save a few inches), then the fridge, then the dishes hutch and swap the dw and mw ends of the island?

I can't remove the wall at the end run where the dishes hutch is, so the sideways message center won't work there (although it's a very nice idea). My contractor looked in the attic and that little bit is part of the load bearing supports (there is a support column directly across the hallway from it that shares the load). He can get rid of the water heater, but that wall needs to stay unless I want to add a lot of $$$ for dealing with load bearing walls.

Buehl, I guess I'm not exactly sure what you meant about the bulk storage closet being smaller than the 24" utility cab? It was 30" inside with an 18" door (door would probably be wider since I don't think I really need 6" of wall on either side.

If I reduce the size of the island, I eliminate 2 drawer banks and a 48" cab, all of which have specific items to go in them, so I'm not sure I can afford the loss of storage, but maybe I'm wrong. I'll play with it tonight.

rhome, yes there would be a bev fridge in the bev area. I want something so it's easy to access snacks/drinks from FR, LR, and backyard without major interruptions in the work area.

I realize the prep area is facing the wall, but it's either the prep area or the clean-up area. On the one hand, I like the idea of a nice view for clean-up since it's a real chore and cooking is more fun. OTOH, if I put the cleanup zone on the wall, I can better hide the dirty dishes from DR view since I'll have hutches, pantries, and fridge along that row. (Possible negative -- dishes might be easier to ignore if they're tucked away and not sitting on the island in plain sight and annoying me when I walk by.)

Phooey. Better get my graph paper. :-0

Sorry...I saw the 15" and thought that was the width...I see now that you were saying 15" deep shelves! So I guess it's smaller :-(

I still like the overall layout though...I was just trying to address some of the issues others had brought up about the bottleneck.

I think you're reasoning about how you'd rather have the outside view during cleanup to be good...no one likes to clean up so making it as pleasant as possible really helps!

As to the Message Center. I saw somewhere online where someone actually built a shallow message center into a wall. They framed it like you would a window and added doors. I'll have to see if I can find it again. What I don't remember is if they just used the 6" deep wall or if they recessed it into the next room. I thought I had saved it, but I can't find it.

I really like the idea of a message niche in the wall but I still don't think I can do it on that side wall. There's an intake vent and electrical in the wall that would have to be moved to make that work. Ideas for camoflauging the intake vent are most welcome, too -- it's in the middle of the wall.

Can't put a window in the corner where the prep sink is. The kitchen backs to the master bedroom.

Okay, I think I've addressed the bottleneck and aisle issues (thanks everyone!). Let me know your thoughts!

Here is a link that might be useful: Zillionth Revision

Did you lose the Message Center? If so, that's too bad. Is there somewhere else you could put one? I thought at first on the DR wall, but I don't think you want it there since it can be seen from the front door.

What about the 18" cabinet run b/w the 2 sliders? Maybe make the glass door cabinets 18" rather than 24" and have a solid 24" door b/w them that, when open, would have chalk board/white board, keys, etc.? The phone could sit on the counter below w/cords, etc. below the counter. Or, it could still be an open area, just 24" instead of 12". [The base cabs would remain the same since you need the 24" depth for the Beverage Chiller.]

This is better, but 1 technical problem and 1 thing that would be a problem for me:

Technical problem: Buehl's right that if you plan and undercounter fridge in the beverage area, it has to stay at 24" and have room for someone to get into it.

This would be a big negative for me: Not only is your message center missing, but so is a pantry. Unless you have room for one somewhere else, I would seriously think through the consequences of that. The bulk storage cabinet and 'pantry hutch' won't be the same.

Just things I want to make sure you noticed: You show 3" columns on either side of the fridge, but have them labeled as 6". You do know a 33" sink won't fit in a 33" cabinet? Also, for things like the bulk storage cabinet and any others ending at a wall, you'll need to allow room for a scribe piece of about 1/2". Just so you know that you won't be able to fill every last fraction of an inch with cabinets. To some this is no big deal, but to others, it is.

I'd still worry about the table seating interfering with the narrow aisle you have between it and the island (and any through-room traffic if there are rooms on each side...but I can't remember your floor plan well enough), but you don't seem to, so that will have to be up to you.

I think you have a very workable plan now. I missed why you switched the dish hutch with the pantry hutch. It seems the dish hutch with the glass doors would fit more nicely in the dining room. Is it because you moved the dishwasher to the other end of the island? If so, that makes perfect sense. And, it might even be better, come to think of it. Your dish hutch, although it will have glass doors, will be more functional than decorative, right? That is, you're planning on stacking dishes there instead of displaying plates upright or something. Right? In that case, I prefer the solid door pantry in the dining area. So, ignore everything I just wrote. It's perfect like you have it now. :)

Thanks, everyone!

On the beverage center: to make a wider aisle, I have a 15" bev center turned on its side (so access to the bev center is in the DR, not facing the island) so that I can have that cabinet run only 18" deep. I have in mind a decorative panel that would mimic a drawer+door cab on the front side so it won't be obviously sideways. Will that not work? (maybe I can't do it because of the electrical requirements?)

On the sink size: I'm searching for a 30" single basin sink to fit a 33" sink base cab.

My other option would be to put the clean up zone along the wall and make the island the prep zone. I could put the trash in a recyling susan in the corner, then the 33" sink base, then the DW. The fridge could move down slightly by making the 3" columns (yes, I meant 3" not 6") just 1" panels instead), leaving enough room for the dish hutch. I could then put the prep sink where the DW is now, leave the MW on the DR end of the island, put the baking supplies cab in the island in between the sink and the MW, and shorten the island by 12". That would improve the aisle spacing between the island and DR table, but would leave me cleaning up against a wall, but it would eliminate the tupperware cab and I'm not sure I would have enough room behind the sink for the faucet if I go this route, though. What do you think?

Loss of the walk-in corner pantry: It definitely will function differently, but I'm not convinced it will be better or worse since my plan is to have a drawer base, then the top cab (going to the ceiling) will be 15" deep, not a full 24". Could also put in pullout shelves.

Swapping the Pantry and Dish hutches: I moved the dish hutch into the kitchen because I moved the DW and I like to be able to reach directly from the DW into the nearest cupboards to put away the dishes. I agree it would look pretty in the DR, but it just seemed to make more sense in the cleanup zone. I went with a pantry hutch instead of a pantry closet because I thought a hutch (even with solid doors) would be a little prettier and less obtrusive in the DR than a closet door. As I have it now, I've moved all of the snacking areas into the DR space and out of the kitchen work area -- easily accessible from the backyard (through the DR doors), the FR and the LR. I had previously put all of the cleanup/dish storage in the DR and the snack zone in the kitchen but got a lot of push back on that idea because snackers would be getting in the way of the work zones.

On the bulk storage cab: I could make this either a cab or a closet. I will lose space either for scribe against the wall so that the doors can open, or I will lose space for drywall on the other side, so it's not going to be a full 36" interior space, but I had only planned 30" interior space before, and that should be sufficient for bulk items, dog food, and a couple of canned goods dispensers (I LOVE those and can't wait to have room for them).

Message Center: What if I put the phone on the 18" run of cabs between the two sets of doors. Phone book and charging station could go in the cab below, with a junk/pen drawer (shallow depth = good thing in a junk drawer). I could put a cork board and a magnetic chalkboard on the inside of the bulk storage cab doors, along with a couple of hooks for keys and dog leash?

On the sink size: I'm searching for a 30" single basin sink to fit a 33" sink base cab.

My 29.5" Ticor S112 sink only requires a 32" base cab. It's also a much better deal than most other sinks of comparable size, and it's even 16 gauge.

About the prep vs. clean-up sink in the island, I think that has more to do with your style of cooking, cleaning, and interacting than anything else. I chose to put my prep sink there (and on the end of the island closest to the dining area) for several reasons. I enjoy and tend to take my time doing prep work, and in contrast, I like to rush through clean-up. Prep time is when I'm likely to want company, so having the stools across from me is nice. Also, if I'm pooped, I can go around to the other side of the island and sit at a stool to prep and still reach the sink if I need it. When I'm cleaning up, I'd rather just get through the task and don't want to chat. I also think that having the prep sink near the dining area will be nice for handwashing and getting water from the tap. I will have hand soap in the dispenser at the prep sink and dish soap at the clean-up sink. I will have my instant hot dispenser at that sink for the same reason. Finally, I like the look of the big expanse of island (with my gorgeous soapstone), and the prep sink just takes up less space. I will have a smaller faucet there, too, which will also be less obtrusive.

Do what feels right to you. You've put a lot of work into thinking about and revising these plans. Sit back for a bit and let them settle. Try not to look at them for a week or so. If everything still makes perfect sense to you when you look at them fresh, you're done.

"Try not to look at them for a week or so." Hahahaha. Very funny.

I really don't want a stainless steel sink, otherwise I would definitely go for a Ticor. The Blanco silgranit has a 30" sink that says it fits in a 33" cab (but I'm a little bit nervous because I want to do an undermount and someone mentioned having to replace their undermount silgranit sink because of a hairline crack that grew). I would really like a Kohler cast iron, but I'm not sure if they have the right size.

It looks like you are making fabulous progress! :-)

I'm sorry that I'm not on the forum enough to have followed all the threads. So, forgive me if I'm asking a question that you've already answered. Is there a reason that you are keeping 8 foot wide French doors in your kitchen?

I can just imagine the space gained by replacing the doors with 8 feet of counters/cabinets and 8 feet of windows above.

For an example of a sideways message center, ours is done that way. This photo was taken just after repainting the walls, so it's bare looking. There are pros and cons of doing this. It's large enough for us (note the file size drawer on the bottom). We never sit at a desk (we use wireless notebook computers). However, DH doesn't "file" very often, so it's up to me to keep the counter top clear of stacks of paper.

Cameron

Thanks for the picture, Cameron! Your kitchen has been a great inspiration for me (not to mention your very detailed explanation of your design). I would love to hear your comments on my plans.

To answer your question about the doors, I have gone back and forth about keeping the doors. I am currently playing with keeping the doors for a few reasons (I can also make lists of reasons to get rid of the doors and put in a nice big window, so this is not a decisive list-- in fact nothing about this kitchen is decisive yet, lol!): (1) I tried and tried and tried to get a layout I liked that put a cabinet run on that wall (particularly liked the idea of the cleanup zone there), but the island and fridge placement continued to be problematic. I really want island seating, and space is pretty darned tight with runs of 24" cabs on either side + an island. (2) We're already removing a wall and vaulting a ceiling, so I was hoping to reduce costs by avoiding the expense of reframing the exterior wall to accommodate a window instead of a door (we currently have a slider there). (3) The kitchen and dining room doors lead directly to our back patio. (4) Wow factor. When my GC (he's a design-build who does really nice work) walked into the house, the first thing he said is, "Look at that backyard. We're keeping the doors, right?" Matching double doors with sidelights giving a view to our backyard (which backs to a hill and looks like a park). Ooh, ahh. (5) symmetry on the exterior. The kitchen doors are definitely not "necessary," but 4 sets of matching french doors along the back wall will have pinnache.

The 2 sets of french doors are on the back of the house? Can you post the layout of the main floor again. Is there only 1 way in and 1 way out of this space? I can't remember what the rest of your floorplan looks like. Thanks

Here's the floor plan. Things to note: the master bedroom is off to the side of the kitchen (behind the range wall) and living room, but didn't fit on the graph paper. The garage is underneath the two kids bedrooms. The house is a split level built on the side of the hill, and the garage sits underneath the house. There is no direct garage access unless we give up our games closet in the family room and put a stairway in the third bay of the garage. The measurements for the kids' room area is wonky (they were sleeping when I drew this so I just guessed as to room/hallway dimensions). The house is approx. 2471 sq. ft. All entrance/exit to the house is from the front door. There is a little scary side door in the guest bathroom that we never use. There are 4 sets of doors to the backyard (master, kitchen, dr, fr).

Sorry -- I still can't figure out how to post a pic directly in my message.

Here is a link that might be useful: Floorplan

I guess what's bothering me it that the while the french doors are symmetrical on the wall, the rest of the kitchen isn't. It's all leaning towards the left. Do you know what I mean? The entrance to the kitchen doesn't seem balanced. Seems like a long walk to get in and out of the kitchen. Have you thought at all about centering the opening to the kitchen on the refrigerator wall or at least pushing it to the left somewhat? Or, maybe adding an entrance on the left side that mirrors the one at the DR end. I couldn't begin to comment on how your layout might change, but it just seems that the current opening could be a bottleneck. if you do have another opening, it would make you more accessible to what's going on in the LR as well. See how in this layout on the top left, the opening is centered on the island and the kitchen sort of wraps around? I know this exact layout won't work for you because of the french doors, but maybe it's something to think about.

I do love that, and would really like to open the kitchen to the LR more EXCEPT then the kitchen is directly visible from the front entry and from the street. It does list to the right, I agree. And I'm open to suggestions, other people's ideas, visuals, whatever (that's why I come here!). Keep in mind that the fridge wall, and the little jog into the dining room may be totally weird, but it's pretty much supporting the entire roof and that wall runs the entire length of the house with only small breaks.

What if I put the bev center in the underneath an 8' window (eliminate that set of doors). I would lose the glass cabs. Or perhaps that's where the buffet belongs? That would reduce the bottleneck around the island.

Not as symmetrical for the backyard, but no biggie, either; we currently have the bbq blocking that entrance anyway.

Is the living room on the same level, or is it above or below the kitchen? I see railing and support columns, so I assume either the kitchen is higher or the living room is higher.

The living room and entry are 5 stairs below the main level, which includes the kitchen, dining room, family room, laundry, guest room, guest bath, and master bedroom. The kids' rooms are 3 steps above the main level off of the Family room.

Only you can decide how it will look from your entry or from the street. Do you have any photos from that vantage point that you can post? Maybe it would help with the tightness around the island. Give some more breathing room. Also, when you and DH are coming from the bedroom, you wouldn't have to walk past the entire length of the kitchen and then walk back. I'm not talking about being lazy here. It just seems that you're completely redoing a kitchen, that has beautiful views to the backyard, but no one will even know it exists unless they actually walk into the DR area. Maybe that a pencil and draw out on the hallway side of the kitchen wall where you "might" consider adding an opening.

Okay, I took some pictures of the kitchen, DR, LR, and entry (and backyard views from the FR), which I have posted. Maybe these will give some context.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen pictures

Personally, I would open up the wall. But that's just my opinion. I think it would be really nice to have people in the kithchen and in the LR and be able to "connect." I think I would feel cut off from the rest of the house with just that one opening. But you've been working in the kitchen with the wall closed up. Does it bother you? If not, then you should leave it as is. Hopefully others will chime in with an opinion.

Bump. Anyone else have an opinion? This goes back to the open v. closed kitchen issue, I think.

I personally like your first layout in this thread. The only thing is the island seating isle is too tight, IMHO. Could you mock up that isle with the 39" spacing and stool and see if it would work for you?

Since I know that table seating has been an issue for everyone, I took a picture of the dining room as it exists now (with the wall between the kitchen and DR still in tact). On the right side is the buffet (beat up but cute anyway). As you can see, the table is centered under the chandelier (yes, the chandelier will be replaced). Space is a wee bit tight between the buffet and table, but we can still get in and out just fine. Right now, only three of us sit at the table (see highchair in the corner). When we have company, everyone goes around the table from the side where the wall is to get to the chairs closest to the slider. The table is 42" wide; the buffet is 21" deep.

Dining Room

The 8' island I have put in the layouts would actually end at the kitchen side of the wall (so, if we left the wall in tact, the 8' island would be a peninsula), which means there would be about 5-6" extra between table and island than there is now between table and wall.

This is the backyard view from the kitchen slider.
View In the summer, there are roses blooming along the picket fence.

This is the view from the front entry (sorry, it was nighttime). Dining Room 2

This is the load bearing wall viewed from the dining room (looking toward the master bedroom):
Load bearing wall You can see the kitchen on the right side of the wall. The (current) 24" deep crystal cabinet is built into the wall. The end of that wall is 30" wide.

buping in hopes of new ideas.

A couple of possibly disruptive :-0 questions...

How do you feel about having both a LR and a FR? Are they both used?

I was thinking...what if you just made that whole area into the Kitchen (Kitchen + DR). Maybe open up the wall b/w the Kitchen and FR...and put some kind of seating there...perhaps a second island or maybe a peninsula b/w the Kitchen & FR?

Then, convert the LR into the DR, open up a doorway in the Kitchen's hallway wall for DR access. There would be plenty of room for all your DR furniture...

This may have been discussed before...but I don't remember.

I have a friend with a similar layout in her townhouse...the front entrance is lower than the main floor of the house (Garage below) and her DR is immediately to your left w/a railing as you walk up the stairs to the main floor. It looks fine... (In her case, the LR is further over to the left--beyond the DR, with bedrooms going off to the right from the entry stairs.)

Just a brainstorming here....

I'm with buehl. I check in on your threads infrequently but just now, looking at your floorplan (as is) and understanding you're proposing getting rid of the wall between the Kitchen and Dining Room leads me to wonder why you don't go all the way, removing the wall between the Dining Roon and Family Room (or at least partially opening it up if structurally / financially you can't completely open it up).

I can see your children are small (as are mine, as I've mentioned to you before), so I'd imagine you spend a lot of time in your Kitchen and would like to be able to keep an eye on them, without that eye also being an eye out for them (as in underfoot). If you could see into your Family Room from that Kitchen it would be the best of all worlds. Littles could play in a "safe" place while you could be making snack / meal / clean-up / having a cup of tea!

Our Kitchen is mostly open to our Family Room (both currently gutted raw) and I love it. Love it, Sarah. I try to encourage the children to play in the Family Room when I'm in the Kitchen (doesn't work out that way every time), but we have great eye / voice contact without me stepping on / over everybody all the time. In fact, part of the reason we're redoing our Family Room is to improve the visual connect between the two spaces. (plus, the room was ugly and poorly thought-out)

Anyway, maybe that way you can justify removing the large sliders from the active Kitchen (while keeping your lovely view), relying on the egress from the Dining Room and Family Room. ???

I think the load bearing wall separating your (current) Kitchen from the hallway leading to your Master Bedroom is probably a great thing, esp. for the future. (I'm thinking when said Littles are teens and have friends over -- it will cut down both on noise as well as you being on parade when you walk out to eavesdrop ....) Plus, of course, it's valuable wall space (on the Kitchen side) for cabinets / appliances!

I should have been clearer: if it were me and my house (knowing how we live / entertain), I would keep the Living Room as a Living Room, incorporating the Dining Room into the open, more casual space I outlined above (Kitchen / Dining / Family all open to one another).

I really like having the Living Room right off the entry, so our "tidy" room is visible (as opposed to the way we really live in the back of the house). I also wouldn't want to be only display while in my Kitchen for sundry reasons, one being I'm occasionally in my nightgown in there and I just don't want the world to see me that way, let alone when there are still dirty pots and pans out.

We have a formal Dining Room which is connected to the Living Room but closed off from the Kitchen. (We didn't want to open that wall up much because of losing valuable and needed wall space in the Kitchen for cabinets and appliances.) We use the Dining Room because I force us to (and my 3.5 year-old loves eating in there, loves setting the table): I hate having a space for which we pay dearly (square footage, furnishings, heating and cooling ...) but don't use. But, we mostly use our breakfast nook adjacent to the Kitchen. Go figure! My husband and I even make a point of sitting in our Living Room to have tea and adult chit-chat when the laddies are in bed at night. I like it!

Of course, since both the Dining Room and Living Room are also part of the reno we don't sit there at present ... but I remember!

Hmm. Interesting thoughts. We use our living room as a family room, and the family room is more of a library/office space (we're replacing the cabinets when we do the kitchen). The wall between the dining room and family room is also a load bearing wall. Although we do want to open the wall a bit more (make it a 6' opening instead of 3'), we plan on adding a tv to the FR so that it will be a computer/games/kids' area (the guest room/play room is behind the FR). Not sure that in the long run I want a completely open space, as it will be nice to be able to keep the noise level from the video games and teen horror movies down.

I keep looking and looking at your layout and can't really come up with anything new to add. The view is nice out the doors. However, if no one goes in and out those doors, then I would still consider using the space for a sink and having an equal width of windows there.

So, this is totally thinking differently and it may be way too radical for you to consider. I didn't try to figure out all the features that you want, just what the space would look like. If you don't like it, no worries! I'm just offering what little I can.

{{gwi:1567242}}

Thanks for the ideas, Cameron. This is similar to a version I had drawn up earlier. I am concerned that 3 1/2' aisles will be too tight, and given the already tight DR, I was trying to avoid seating on the DR end of the island. One solution would be to eliminate the kitchen seating altogether, which would maximize island storage. This isn't a terrible solution given that the kitchen would be open to the dining room, but it's not ideal, either, since the DR is now our ONLY eating space (except the coffee table in the FR, of course) and I was really hoping for a place for the kids to perch in the kitchen.

I was concerned that the island bisecting the U shaped kitchen would make it not as functional. I really like the idea of a prep sink in the corner. Not sure if I can get a corner cab that will work for pantry storage. Would love to get 2 pantries -- one for food, one for bulk/small appliances/etc., but it's a pretty tight space.

I have in mind a very small bar stool that will tuck neatly underneath the overhang (something like this):

Saddle style bar stool

I've worked with the layouts that Buehl and Cameron have so kindly provided, and come up with a bit of a compromise.

I've kept the island as a cleanup zone primarily because I really liked the flow of snack pantry/mw->fridge->dishes hutch->landing space->prep sink->range.

This layout still shows a slight overlap between the fridge and island cleanup sink, but I will probably go with a 30" sink in a 33" base, so that should solve the overlap issue.

Let me know what you think. Thanks again!

Here is a link that might be useful: How's this look?

bump -- I posted really late last night.

Any chance of swapping your baking area for your cleanup zone? My huge concern is that main work zones are overlapping. I know that's probably not huge when the kids are little, but it will be later. As it is now, anyone prepping or cooking will have to get past anyone working at the cleanup zone to get to the fridge. The idea is to try to avoid crossing paths. If the cleanup is under the window, then that is avoided, as well as making the island a good place for a person sharing the prep or cleanup sink to make salads, etc., since there are more kinds of 'prep' than just what goes to the stove.

So after trying and trying to get something to work with an island, I'm back to the peninsula layout (mainly from looking at another poster's very similar sized kitchen and realizing that the peninsula was really the best functioning form, but I (crossing fingers) think that I've really got it this time! Please let me know what you think.

For all those who have complained about the seating in the dining area being too close, I have removed the buffet. I could also reduce the overhang from 18" (pictured) to 15" to gain a few inches. -- Also, I have a full 6" wall for the pantry, and it may be more like 4", which would give me another 2" of breathing room. If I need a cab for linens, I have other smaller pieces that I can put in a corner somewhere.

Here is a link that might be useful: Peninsula layout

bump

I think it looks pretty good. The only things I'm not comfortable with are

(1) the distance to the landing space for the refrigerator...unless you plan on using the dish hutch for that. I suppose 5' isn't too bad across at the peninsula or even the 30" around the ovens...so maybe you're OK there after all.

...and

(2) the location of the DW. To me, it looks like it may be crowded at the sink when the DW is open and you are trying to load it. It's going to extend approx 12" into the sink area when it's open & it's only 12" away from the perpendicular cabinet run.

Ideally, I think it should be next to the sink. I realize you put it where you did b/c of the location of the dish drawers and you definitely don't want the sink any closer to the pantry (you need work room on both sides).

I suggest you mock it up, if you can, to be sure you'll be OK with it in that location.

BTW...you may be able to fit one more seat at the peninsula.

HTH!

The placement of the DW is what was giving me problems in this layout. The BEST location would be to have the sink in the peninsula, with DW on the end and trash on the other side. Gives better storage along the perimeter wall, too. BUT, then I lose the nice work space on the peninsula, and the pretty view during clean-up. Plus, I would have the clean-up sink facing the DR, which seems like a bad idea.

I thought about putting a dish hutch sideways (facing the DR) against the pantry wall, with the DW underneath, but I was afraid that wouldn't leave enough landing space next to the sink.

What if I eliminate the trash susan and use a peninsula cab (access from the DR under the overhang) for seldom-used items, move the trash into the peninsula, and scoot the sink down to the corner? Since I'm not using a farm sink, there shouldn't be clearance problems. That would give me space for the DW and a 12" cab, and would add landing space on that side.

Not too worried about the refrigerator landing space. I suppose I could extend the peninsula so that the opening to the kitchen is 48" (and gain a little extra space in the peninsula to boot), but I was thinking that the 60" opening would help prevent a bottleneck when someone is standing in front of the refrigerator and someone else is trying to get through.

This is going to make you crazy, but I'm just not a big peninsula fan. I'm just not loving the way it looks in your layout. If you're still going for that sort of "unfitted" look, I just feel an island is better suited. I also think it's what you really want. Can you make the island 48" wide and put 2 chairs at the DR end? That's what the other poster who is having island issues is considering and hers is even narrower than yours. You have the aisle space that you could steal 3" from each side. I think you have the room for the island, it would just be better if the seating was not in the major aisles.

Having fun yet!?!?!?

This is me pulling my hair out. LOL. I've only been doing this since September. Is it just my imagination or have other people stopped by, planned, and COMPLETED kitchens in the same amount of time? Oh, well. I can take comfort in the fact that the housing market is crap, so I have nothing but TIME on my hands... (oh, and a terrible oven and no cooktop -- I think it's pretty funny when people start talking about setting up their temporary kitchens -- I already have one!).

I was really hoping to get seating for 3-4 in the kitchen so that the kids and their friends can have a snack, and it's just too crazy tight of a space for that on an island, but I think I will have to settle for 2 small perches at the island and then homework at the dining room table.

That would give me a better clean-up zone, but the dishes wind up on the other side of the room from the snack area. Phooey. They'll just have to walk...

Does the fridge wall with the prep sink at least look good? I'm thinking of swapping out the hinged corner upper cab for an angled corner cab with a susan inside for my spices.

Okay, if I keep the prep sink in the corner (I really like that location -- I can see a lot of use out of that sink located there; less so in an island), and keep the cleanup sink on the wall facing the backyard, could I get away with a furniture-piece island with a wood top? (Can you roll dough on a wood top?)

Here's one I really love. It has an option of a pull out eating bar, which is nice, because we could tuck the stools away when we're not using the bar. Or is it just silly?

Here is a link that might be useful: Baker's Island